Talk:Joker (Persona)

Possible useful source

Found this interview with the voice cast of Persona 5. Fukuyama talks about Ren's characterization. I would add it but I don't know exactly what's its original source.Tintor2 (talk) 18:22, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Tintor2: Persona Magazine is an irregularly serialized magazine published by Dengeki, with over 23 issues since its start in 2011. It should be a great source to use assuming we could find a good translation of it (I'm not sure if this blog would count or not). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:43, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Just found this. Early sketches of ficitonal characters are useful especially if the article mentions them.Tintor2 (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Akira Kurusu

Since this keeps being brought up, I'm making a discussion on the talk page to resolve it. Akira Kurusu is only his name in the original manga from 2016, while Ren Amamiya is the canon name used by Atlus in Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight following its usage in the anime and its associated spinoffs. And apparently, Amamiya is used in a second manga series titled Persona 5: Mementos Mission. Thus, Amamiya should be take precedence over Kurusu like we've done for Yu Narukami from Persona 4, who also had this manga name discrepancy. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:46, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello. Even though Ren is used in other games, Akira should still be seen on this page as it is still a name the character goes by as well as being very popular for him. When supplying information you need to enclued everything not just pick and choose. As long as it's clearly stated where the name comes from then it should 100% be allowed on this page. NateBondevik (talk) 13:30, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

• It is used on this page, just not the lead/infobox due to its non-canon/one-time usage status. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:35, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

You should still have the name on the page as it is a name the character has gone by. Wikipedia is here to give people such information. What if someone wants to know why someone is calling joker Akira or the other way around. Having this clearly visible on this page tells people why as well as informing them that there is an anime, manga and spin off games. NateBondevik (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

This name is brought up in the infobox, as it should be. It also says where this name is used. I don't really see how much more you could do. Joker is the WP:COMMONNAME of the protagonist, and should be referred to as that in the prose. I'm not sure what the issue is here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

note, looking at the article, Ren is only used once more in the whole article than Akira, in the lede. A non canon name is hardly lede worthy. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

We have multiple people who disagree with you though. Maybe we could mention Akira back in the lead again just to let readers know it exists (for those who don't read the entire article), but we should not add it to the infobox because the name is not canon and only used in a single spinoff adaptation. If Ren wasn't used by Atlus in the Dancing games, then each name would have about the same importance and would be considered both canon, but that is no longer the case. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:31, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

My point is not being challenged by multiple people just you. And my point still stands as Wikipedia is to inform people and giving them all the information about what they want to know. Also the name Akira is still very widely used in the community from my experience as well as discussions with other people about the name. My edits have been clear on where the name comes from and are on there to inform so you should not be removing it. NateBondevik (talk) 17:51, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

NateBondevik Wikipedia is not here to give people all of the information that they want on a subject. WP:NOT is quite clear on that. Wikipedia doesn't care what a community does or doesn't do. It's looking for an overview of a topic, created from what Reliable sources say on that subject. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:41, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

The article being cited in favor of Rem only straight up says he has two canon names. Insofar as the anime and manga are both official works, there is nothing to suggest one is “more” canon than another, even if one is demonstrably employed more often. I’ve reworded the article to reflect this. If you’re looking for my opinion, I don’t mind Akira being in the infobox and the lead. Please stop edit warring over it though. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:11, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I wasn't expecting to be in such an argument over a name but I like see as much information on a character as possible. Thank you again. NateBondevik (talk) 00:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

• There are other wikis dedicated to including everything on a fictional character (like here), Wikipedia is not the place. You claiming the name is more popular can not be objectively proven, as no source (or even Atlus) agrees with you. For now though, I've just added a note to the name. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 01:26, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Personal biases shouldn't be a factor when it comes to editing wikipedia entries. NateBondevik is being extremely transparent with their desire to push Akira Kurisu, relying on anecdotal evidence (the name's perceived popularity) as an argument for why the name should be listed, even though there are very little reasons to do so. There is absolutely no point in listing every alternate name for a character, since its extraneous information. It's a blatant slippery slope as well, since it would open up adding Yu's manga name and the Persona 3 protagonist's various manga & play names. And finally, Ren Amamiya is used in multiple Persona 5 media, and not just the anime/P5D. He is notably referred to as Ren Amamiya in Granblue Fantasy and Puzzles & Dragons as well. Let it go. Ziodyne

Not sure where the holier than thou attitude is coming from, my friend, but the Protagonist (Persona 3) and Yu Narukami articles (both Good Articles) do actually list all the various names in different mediums. There's value to readers to include them somewhere because they're all official names according to primary sources. Curious readers would not be served if the name appears nowhere. The discussion at hand is about where they should be listed, not whether they should be listed. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

It's worth noting that "Akira Kurusu" still gets more than double the Google hits as "Ren Amamiya". While it's not compelling evidence in itself, it still lends credence to the case that readers are coming to this article to learn about Akira and finding out about Ren, and not the other way around. Akira would certainly qualify as WP:COMMONNAME over Ren, if Joker weren't available as the dominating option. Ziodyne, you appear to be engaged in an edit war. I invite you to self-revert your last edit to Dissident's version or else be in danger of WP:3RR. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe I've gone out of line by calling out arguments that rely on anecdotal evidence, and I think you're ascribing traits to me that aren't there. In any case, I am aware that the Persona 3 Protagonist & Yu wikipedia entries mention the alternative names, but they're not mentioned in the infobox, which was the crux of my argument. Infoboxes should be concise and clean-cut, not filled with exceptions. There was also the assertion that Ren was used in 2 pieces of media, when the number was higher in actuality. The Google hits argument is also untenable. Akira returns more hits because it's simply been around longer (the same thing happened with Yu/Souji). Ren will eventually overtake it (if it hasn't already overtaken it in Japan). Out of respect, i'll self-revert though I think my arguments are still compelling. Ziodyne

If we're going to compare apples to apples, all the names should be in prose like P3 and Yu, and the line in the infobox should be removed entirely because it's so "concise and clean-cut" that it elides nuance and context (and invites edit warring). Given the continued prevalence of Akira in media coverage, it does readers a disservice not to explain where the name comes from in the lead. This very discussion is more evidence that there is confusion about names that needs to be cleared up in the article. It certainly rises above "trivia". Axem Titanium (talk) 04:53, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

"Given the continued prevalence of Akira in media coverage" is absolutely a bad faith argument. Media coverage pertaining to the Persona 5 protagonist has almost entirely opted for "Joker" or the name used related to the media in question (ie: Ren Amamiya for every spinoff game, the anime and 2nd manga). Akira is only common parlance in certain parts of the Persona fandom, and your argument should not be predicated on fandom experience. Additionally, Atlus consistently using "Ren" instead of opting for multiple names like with the Persona 3 protagonist should speak to Atlus's intent to hammer in Ren as Joker's "default" name outside of Persona 5. I must repeat for emphasis, there is no substantial reason to list Akira Kurisu in the infobox. A simple mention in the wiki entry itself should suffice. Ziodyne 0:131, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I am not the one showing personal biased here. Your refusal to accept Akira in this page is extremely petty and childish. All names for joker should be clearly listed as I have been making it so by saying where the name is present though keeping it short and to the point as to keep the info box as clean as possible. May I also add that you have been removing the name all together from the page not just in the info box even when what has been stated is completely true. Akira is a cannon name whether you accept it or not and other people have the right to see this information which you are withholding from them even though Wikipedia is a source of free information for pretty much the whole world which none of you can bloody well deny. (sorry if this is seen as swearing in my country it's not) Wikipedia pages should contain all necessary information and you have the ability to edit it to make sure to the best of everyone one the planets knowledge. So please stop such petty childishness NateBondevik (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ziodyne, I disagree. Fandom experience is actually of paramount importance here because it's what drives traffic and readers to this page. If prospective readers arrive at this page by searching Akira Kurusu and it redirects here, which it does, they would be frustrated and confused if that's not explained on the page itself. Remember, we're not writing this for ourselves; we're writing for the audience. We must always keep this in mind. More broadly, we know from sources that both names are official, though one is used more often. What we can't say is that one name is "more official" or "more canon" than the other. That would be original research. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

You are missing the point, it's not about it being official or not or any confusion regarding the name, it's about it being WP:UNDUEWEIGHT due to it being less-used in official media (and passed over by Atlus) than Amamiya. The name is mentioned on the page, just not in the lead/infobox because of that. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 16:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

For my money, I think it's good where it is now, with one mention in the lead for intro readers and one mention in the body, and removed from the infobox. I think that's the correct DUE amount of weight. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:00, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I think it's fine as it is now with both being clearly mentioned. Really don't think it was worth an argument over but hopefully it's not going to be an issue again. NateBondevik (talk) 19:31, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I think we're at a good point as well, but the wiki is entry is still misleading by giving the names equal weight when Ren is more prominent and has more appearances in subsequent titles (Akira has no appearances outside of the first manga). @NateBondevik I would appreciate if you did not make me out to be someone i'm not, and doubly so if you could not use terms like "canon" when that's absolutely not the case. " @Axem Titanium, that's a good point and i'll be sure to keep that in mind. I do feel it's important not to coddle people who prefer one name over the other, however, and that means giving Akira less weight due to its status as a one off name. Ziodyne —Preceding undated comment added 04:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

It already says "and most other appearances". I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Axem Titanium (talk) 04:35, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@ziodyne no matter how you look at it the name is canon even if just one time. Think of it as an alternative universe. Also I can only tell how you are as a person by the way you act towards other people especially online, it's telling to say how childish some of you all have been while making basically anonymous comments on a website about giving information. Maybe you should work on how you treat others over being petty about a character's name being more or less official. I come from a place where we tell people to their faces when they're in the wrong and honestly I'm not changing that as it gives people a clue on how to improve as human beings. NateBondevik (talk) 05:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Also just because I forgot. I don't think this new edit works at all NateBondevik (talk) 05:15, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think you're the one engaging in ad hominem attacks on my character, using descriptors like "childish" and "petty" for no real reason. I don't want to be dragged into a fight with you, but it's a bit off-putting to preach online maturity when you say things like "Maybe you should work on how you treat others over being petty about a character's name being more or less official" with no real basis. You should practice impartiality instead of getting worked up over my decisions. This is a wiki, not a forum. Your life history doesn't matter. Ziodyne (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@ziodyne I only say what I have seen and to be honest with you I was royally fed up with your behaviour. I would say what I said to you to you on person but what's funny is that was just directed at this whole situation in general with no actual target.

Your words are the icing on the cake of a horrible week so honestly please just stop getting at me I'm not in the mood for an argument with children. NateBondevik (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Both of you need to cool it. Ziodyne please stop responding out of order as it’s making the conversation harder to follow. We’re at a point where all four of us have reached a compromise that we’re more or less happy with. It’s time to walk away. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I think you're being flat out disingenuous by writing off my discussion with NateBondevik as a squabble between two people. I haven't engaged in personal attacks or said things like "Your words are the icing on the cake of a horrible week so honestly please just stop getting at me" which is so unbelievably unprofessional, i'm shocked that (and his previous comments) this discussion didn't end on the spot. My intentions have not and have never come from a personal place. I don't have a personal attachment to either name like NateBondevik clearly does, and my edits weren't made to adhere to some agenda. "The four of us have reached a compromise" completely misses the mark since the previous edit adds unnecessary redundancies. There is no point in half-assing this. We should come to an impartial conclusion that makes sense for the wiki entry. Ziodyne —Preceding undated comment added 18:28, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

@ziodyne this whole line of replies have not felt professional and honestly I think I'm at a point where I've had enough of it. I was just trying to get out of this stupidity and all you've thrown at me is negativity and hatred towards what I have been trying to actively contribute to a page on a character I love personally. Again maybe I read your words incorrectly but thusly you have too. (also just for the record I'm female not male.) NateBondevik (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Lead image

Doesn't the main image make to difficult to notice well the appearance of the character? Maybe it might be better if keep the regular character in the infobox and the Joker persona in the creation section to make the character's appearance easier to understand. Then again, I don't know if Soejima has mentioned the making of both outfits.Tintor2 (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

• Both of them are equally represented as the character (especially after his inclusion in Smash), so I don't see an issue here. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say what represents but instead the quality of combining two nonfree images into one. If there is an actual image with the two common versions of the character then it would fit. By the way, most of the reception is Sakurai's commentary about the character. There is nothing about the character's portayal in the anime which makes it fail coverage to the point it's way short.Tintor2 (talk) 01:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Some parts of your addition were getting to the point of being WP:UNDUE. I'll go through it and see what can be salvaged though. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:36, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better if this was renamed to Joker (Persona 5)?

I know Joker (Persona) distinguishes it from other things with the term Joker like the playing card and obviously the DC Comics character, but Joker in Persona 5 is also not even the first character named Joker in the series since he's preceded by two incarnations of the antagonist Joker in the Persona 2 duology. Joker (Persona) might be too broad considering the series' wider history.

• While there is another Joker in the series, they don't have an article here and thus there is not need to disambiguate the title any further. Maybe a hatnote could be that redirects to Persona 2? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 08:48, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I liked the idea. Despite being the only Joker character in the Persona series with his own article, lay people reading this article may have the wrong idea that he's the only Joker in the series at all. Either rename the article or make it clear that the series had other "Jokers" Dgsousa (talk) 02:30, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to move the page to Ren Amamiya

As of recently, the PC version of Persona 5 Royal has been revealed to automatically assign the default name of Ren Amamiya should the player switch the game's language upon resuming their save file. Especially given the name being associated with the character in other non-manga projects related to Persona 5 as well as on his Amiibo figure description, I think it's a good idea to acknowledge Ren Amamiya as his canon name and move the page to reflect that in the same vein as Yu Narukami from Persona 4

https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/y9m07y/jokers_official_name_has_been_confirmed_in_game/ RebelYasha (talk) 01:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Feel free to file an official move request with WP:RM. O.N.R. ^(talk) 05:28, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) ❯❯❯ Raydann^(Talk) 09:43, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Joker (Persona) → Ren Amamiya – Joker is his code name, not real name. In the 2022 rerelease of Persona 5 Royal, changing the language of the game will result in the name being defaulted to "Ren Amamiya". This is the game itself, not a spinoff or secondary media. Yu Narukami, protagonist of Persona 4, has their name as the wiki article as well, and the same happens in their game rerelease.</nowiki>

https://www.thegamer.com/persona-5-royal-confirms-jokers-real-name/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Persona5/comments/y9m07y/jokers_official_name_has_been_confirmed_in_game WidelyUnavailable (talk) 22:16, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. A) Wikipedia article titles are not "real names" or "canon names" or anything. B) Even if they were, an obscure trick to force a default name means nothing. The game as played by 99.9% of players does not feature a name, and they are referred to as "Joker" by everyone in-game. C) The reason why the P4 Protagonist is at a name has nothing to do with "change the language around to see what hidden internal values are lying around", but rather being given the same name prominently in other installments like P4 Arena, and having a "WP:COMMONNAME" argument on how the media treats the character. The gaming media overwhelmingly used "Joker" for the P5 protagonist, which makes sense, because that's what he's called in-game. SnowFire (talk) 00:41, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

There are two canon names for Joker, Akira Kurusu being one of them. The protagonist having two names would cause confusion as if someone refers to Joker as Akira, they’d be confused searching for Joker’s page. We could have searching for Akira Kurusu redirect to the page titled Ren Amamiya, but it could be better if searching for Akira Kurusu/Ren Amamiya both redirected to this page. 109.79.98.57 (talk) 15:57, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

As comparison, Soji Seta redirects to Yu Narukami, and Makoto Yuki/Minato Arisato/Sakuya Shiomi/Kotone Shiomi all redirect to Protagonist (Persona 3). O.N.R. ^(talk) 05:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The language change is not a hidden value, its a intended mechanic that happens ingame. There is a text box that tells the player what happens. Ren Amamiya is also seen in other installments. P5 Dancing, a game developed by atlus, refers to the protagonist as "Ren Amamiya". Also, Joker is a name held by multible people in the persona franchise, specifically persona 2. WidelyUnavailable (talk) 11:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Fails WP:COMMONNAME. I played Persona 5 start to finish and have no idea who "Ren Amamiya" even is. It's clearly not the typical name used for the protagonist. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Not WP:COMMONNAME. Could be moved to Joker (Persona 5) if Joker (Persona) is not enough of a disambiguation, but that is another discussion. Also, Ren Amamiya is about as a common name as Akira Kurusu. (Oinkers42) (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Nobody is debating Ren Amamiya being the official name. WP:NATDIS could apply here if it was more commonly used alongside Joker, which is isn't. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 12:51, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Fictional characters with secret identities can go either way, but he's typically referred to by his codename in secondary sources. O.N.R. ^(talk) 00:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Jun-Fukuyama.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

"Default" status of Ren Amamiya

@WidelyUnavailable: Based on the links you provided above, to be accurate, we'd have to phrase this as something like "In some versions of Persona 5, if the player changes the language of the game after starting a file, Joker's name is reset to 'Ren Amamiya'." And yet, writing that out also explains why it is not necessary to write it out: this is a ridiculous edge case. People don't change language constantly, and it'll go back to the chosen name otherwise. It's rather obvious that this is closer to some system problem - the way the name is stored isn't guaranteed to be compatible from Latin to Japanese character sets, so they just use a known-good name instead. That is an interesting fact about coding, but nothing at all about "canon." It is trivia for 99.9% of people who play the game.

If you want to argue otherwise, find a source blessed by WP:VGRS that agrees with you. You linked TheGamer before, but it's listed as a situational source due to "concerns over undue weight and content farming", and this is obviously some content farming - they're literally just repeating a Reddit post. A Reddit post isn't enough to be notable on Wikipedia. SnowFire (talk) 02:11, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted on it simply on the basis of it being over-explained. Just because players can freely name Amamiya in Persona 5 doesn't make it any less valid. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 13:30, 24 April 2023 (UTC)