Talk:Jinkx Monsoon
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"They" vs. "It" edit
Over the past few days, myself and an IP editor, 173.177.18.229, have been debating weather to overuse Hoffers name within the article, and use the pronoun "it" while referring to them, or weather to use genderless pronouns "they/them". As Jinkx describes themself as agender, I see no harm in using "they/them" pronouns, which is accepted grammatical usage (See singular they) and used for other articles in which persons do not identify as cisgender like Angel Haze.
I am strongly against using the term "it" when describing Hoffer, such term is used in the Biography section "Hoffer found Russian Jewish ancestry on its mother's side." considering that Hoffer is a person, not a thing or an object, I'd even push to say it was offensive that "it" is used. I also oppose replacing many of the uses of they/them with Hoffer in the article, as overuse of their name reads poorly.
Alerting several editors in hopes they join in with the discussion, either because I've seen them edit Drag Race related content, or gender sensitive topics like Angel Haze. I'd appreciate people starting their comments with either *'''They''' or *'''It''' thankyou. Burnberrytree, Genya19, Hinnk, Kyleofark. Azealia911 talk 01:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- I cross-posted to WP:LGBT to see if some editors who may have addressed issues like these can provide some advice. Based on the Facebook comment alone, I'd be inclined to use male pronouns. Angel Haze explicitly stated their preference for they/their. Hoffer, to the best of my knowledge, uses male pronouns when not in drag. Unless Hoffer explicitly requests it, the word it should absolutely not be used to refer to a person. hinnk (talk) 01:31, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'd never actually considered using male pronouns, I assumed that someone verifying themselves as agender would automatically mean losing gender-based pronouns, but your comment does make complete sense. I'd support male pronouns. Azealia911 talk 01:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The debate is not really They vs It. I believe there is a way the article can be written, arguably more eloquently than by overusing 'Hoffer', without using they to refer to a single person as plural (Jerick Hoffer may self-identify as genderless, but that does not automatically means the use of 'they' is mandated + the use of such queer studies jargon can provide the impression to readers that somehow it's a split personnality issue) or it (since there appears to be outrage about its use). Unless the performer specifies that the use of the pronoun him for his regular persona and she as his drag persona his offensive, I don't see where the problem is here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 (talk • contribs)
- Why are you continually batting against the use of "they" on the basis you think it's not grammatically correct? There's an entire article validating the singular they, and the general outline for genderqueer people lists pronouns including the use of singular they. And now you're saying it may lead to readers thinking that Hoffer has split personality? Really? If you honestly think that, we can insert a footnote to notify readers that genderqueer people do not use conventional pronouns. Azealia911 talk 01:44, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The use of they or special pronouns is a fringe phenomeon usually done by courtesy for some, not every, members that identify as one of the various brands of queer. Since the performer here has not requested the use of special pronouns, and because the use of such pronouns is marginal and debated, it should not be used in on a generalist website such as Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 (talk) 02:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- If Hoffer hasn't requested any change to pronouns then surely 'He' would be a default considering that's their sex? Azealia911 talk 02:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also, what do we do about the filmography section, that currently uses 'Himself', we change that to what? If you're against gendered terms and they/them, what's the alternative? "Itself", "Hoffers self" "Self" all three sound ridiculous. Azealia911 talk 02:32, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Whenever this issue has come up before, consensus seems to be against avoiding all use of pronouns (e.g. Talk:Bruce Jenner/Archive 1). The guideline on this is MOS:IDENTITY, which says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise." Although lots of publications use female pronouns to describe queens when they're in drag, Wikipedia is more consistent with pronoun usage. For example, the RuPaul article mentions his attitude toward female pronouns but never uses them to describe RuPaul in drag. hinnk (talk) 02:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agender person weighing in here. A person can be genderless and still prefer gendered pronouns. Unless Hoffer has specifically expressed a preference for singular they (which is in widespread use, including on Wikipedia, and is neither fringe nor ungrammatical) or another gender-neutral pronoun, the article should continue to use he/him/his pronouns. Funcrunch (talk) 06:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- I guess it really does make sense to revert back to male pronouns, keeping in mind that Hoffer hasn't asked for any change in that Facebook post. And if all editors, but one, in this discussion seem to think male would be acceptable, I'll change it back to that. Azealia911 talk 11:46, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agender person weighing in here. A person can be genderless and still prefer gendered pronouns. Unless Hoffer has specifically expressed a preference for singular they (which is in widespread use, including on Wikipedia, and is neither fringe nor ungrammatical) or another gender-neutral pronoun, the article should continue to use he/him/his pronouns. Funcrunch (talk) 06:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Whenever this issue has come up before, consensus seems to be against avoiding all use of pronouns (e.g. Talk:Bruce Jenner/Archive 1). The guideline on this is MOS:IDENTITY, which says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise." Although lots of publications use female pronouns to describe queens when they're in drag, Wikipedia is more consistent with pronoun usage. For example, the RuPaul article mentions his attitude toward female pronouns but never uses them to describe RuPaul in drag. hinnk (talk) 02:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Changed image to one in 2022 edit
Why are we still using the 2013 image for Monsoon? Horrible lighting and Monsoon is known primarily as a ginger, not a blonde. The 2022 Drag Con image reflects her style and makeup evolution, so I have removed the 2013 lead image for the time being. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 07:21, 6 April 2023 (UTC
Jinkx goes by she/her. edit
Jinkx now goes by she/her and "Hera Hoffer" in her daily life. This page needs to reflect that. Onoramccauley (talk) 17:14, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- reliable sources are needed to change an article. Johnuniq (talk) 03:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
Removal of birth name edit
I have removed birth name per MOS:DEADNAME. If others can find a policy-based resason for inclusion I won't object, but I can't see its relevance as Jinkx Monsoon has not been famous under her birth name. GnocchiFan (talk) 07:31, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
---Another Believer (Talk) 22:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)