|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jidokwan article.|
|WikiProject Martial arts||(Rated Start-class)|
Yes, the Official Taekwondo--Bigzilla 17:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Jidokwan in Korea, writes Jidokwan as one word. It is the only Kwan to do so. It is writen that way on all their official documents, certificates and on the web site www.TaekwondoJidokwan.com --Bigzilla 03:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Writting that you disagree, or your master disagreed with the Kwan does not belong in the middle of the article. --Bigzilla 05:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The break away section was removed. Blant self promotion is not allowed, read the rules.--Bigzilla 05:48, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Information_suppression. Read them yourself. This isn't self promotion, they are a different lineage and a school that is decades old. A school that didn't stick with the other kwans and kept it's identity is important from a historical point of view, especially in comparing how technique could have evolved and what its roots could be. Assume more good faith, this isn't an ad. Rpf 12:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Sure it is, it links to her page. For your info the Kwan's disolved as martial arts systems in the mid 1970's. so their decades old school is moot. The break away post is useless in the history of Jidokwan.--Bigzilla 06:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
If you want to take this to some kind of arbitration, lets do it. --Bigzilla 06:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- They call it Jidokwan and they have the same origins but broke away at some point. You can remove the link to Sue Katz if you want, but I don't think you are justified removing references to Bong Young Choi. This whole article is poorly sourced and you removing sourced material in favour of unsourced material looks to me like some good ol' fashioned lineage war. You may think you have the real jidokwan but nobody else need agree with you. Arbitrate all you like.
- By the way, the paragraph on a school being moot makes no sense. I've just given you an example of a kwan remaining a martial art system. Something you might find fascinating if you consider yourself an exponent of that style (which I am not). Perhaps you should look into it? Rpf 12:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
No Kwan's remained martial arts systems. If you studied Korean martial arts history you would know that. Just because some guy (Bong Choi) claims it does not make it so. Just because some black belt that used to be a Jidokwan member opened his own club does not make it a Kwan.
- I'm not interested in what you think a kwan is, especially when you don't know who somebody is and just pass them off as "some guy with a blackbelt". If you don't know his rank then I would be a little more careful. It may be a vanishing minority who wanted to keep teaching as if Taekwondo never existed, but I find the idea fascinating and I believe others would too. -- Rpf 00:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
You may "think" you know what the real Jidokwan thinks, but you don't. You are communicating with a actual member of the "real" Jidokwan right now. You will find that they agree with me. Here is your direct link the the Jidokwan in Korea. www.TaekwondoJidokwan.com Also, this past March, I took these photos while at the 60th Anniversary of Jidokwan, in Seoul, Korea. http://www.lacancha.com/jido3.html (Taekwondo Hall of Fame site). See the only non-Korean American guy in the room taking the pledge? He is my teacher. He also disagrees with you.
- Disagree's with me how? That these people don't exist? Do you know what his rank was when he left or are you just being dismissive? -- Rpf 00:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I have the sources for every bit of information in that article. Is there some place I can post a scan if it?
No one individual school owners deserves their name or school link in this article, this article is about the Kwan in general. We can leave in the bit about break away black belts, but not links to Bong Choi's business. --Bigzilla 17:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- Stop being so arrogant as if somebody is trying to promote a business. Choi won't care much about money from the grave. Read this Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith then read it again. -- Rpf 00:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I just checked the page, and the article is sourced. "From Korean Language Magazine World Taekwondo, August 1997. Interview of Chong Woo Lee, the most senior Jidokwan member living today (2006)" and "http://www.TaekwondoJidokwan.com". I would say these are excellent sources. --Bigzilla 17:42, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have taken the time to add more information, like references, links and photo. Hopefully this imporves the article.--Bigzilla 19:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know his rank, all three of them, and he never actually left, well according to Jidokwan and Kukkiwon he never resigned, but continued to get rank for himself. Does that shock you? I realize now that he may have been your instructor, or higher, I know sometimes the truth sucks. Funny that someone who spouts off all this break away, renegade and independence propaganda made sure that they continued to get their membership and Dan ranking from the KTA, Kukkiwon and the Jidokwan (so-called amalgamated Kwans!) that they claim to break away from, but neglect getting the same membership and rank for their students. Hummm what do you call that? Good faith? No, I call it something else. My instructor disagrees with basically everything you wrote in regard to Jidokwan, Sue Katz and Bong Choi. But don't take my word for it, ask him directly, he is someone who knows. Kindest Regards.--Bigzilla 04:31, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Nothing shocks me. You may have missed what I said earlier but I have never done a korean art whatsoever and will not loose sleep over what you say. Can you back up what you say and post details of his rank and who taught him? All three what? Rpf 05:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
His most important teacher was Dr. YON, Kwai Byong, who is also mentioned in the article, though there is confusion among some on how he spelled his own name in English. YON, Kwai Byong is how his name appears on Dan certificates, including Bong Choi's. Below is a response to my inquiry.
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:12:28 +0900 From: "taekwondojidokwan.com" <email@example.com> To: "Donald DuckDuck" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Request for information
We hope you are well and wish you to continue your good work for Taekwondo.
CHOI, Bong Yong earned the 9th Dan from the following: Korea Taekwondo Assoc. and Kukkiwon and Jidokwan. He was long time member of Jidokwan from the early days. We have no records of Sue or Susan Katz.
To answer your question, there is no Jidokwan martial art for over 30 years to now. Same as every kwan Jidokwan disolved in 1976 and today remains only as a friendship club of members who support Kukkiwon and WTF.
YU, Yong Sik
Quoting Donald DuckDuck :
> Dear Sirs, > > This is a request for information. > > I would like to inquire if CHOI, Bong Young and his student Sue > (Susan?) Katz are members of Jidokwan. > > Also, what is "Traditional" Jidokwan and are there any "Traditional" > Jidokwan schools in the world. > > Thank you, > > Ron Dodge--Bigzilla 12:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
- Fantastic, thankyou. Then what is the problem with what was written there about Master Bong Choi? It is clear he was a very highly ranked blackbelt who decided to teach Jidokwan as a martial art in a breakaway group. This group is small but their lineage is certainly legitimate. Don't you find it interesting that a school continued Jidokwan as if Taekwondo never existed? Think about it. How many forms/patterns/katas and teaching methods were lost in the process of amalgamation? Can you see now why it is an interesting point to have in the article and not just self promotion? -- Rpf 00:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I have given you all the information you need. I have also given you informaion to prove that even though Bong Choi claimed to break away from the Jidokwan, Kukkiwon and KTA, personally he never actually did, he just told that to his students, and they swallowed it, hook line and sinker. This way, he got to keep all the Dan money for himself and print his own certificates. Anyway, Bong Choi is a poor example of a break-away member or group, I just proved to you his so-called break away was false. Instead, I used Kyo Yoon Lee, who is the most famous break away member from Jidokwan roots, and he actually made a real Kwan. Not an easy thing to do. Best Regards. --Bigzilla 03:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps he never did officially resign but the thing of note is the refusal for his school to be a part of Taekwondo. Yes Kyo Yoon Lee broke away but apparently not for the same reasons (it is still WTF).
- I don't think Bong Choi was doing anything negative or misleading to his students. Why would he encourage them never to get shiny Taekwondo certificates unless he didn't believe in the amalgamation? I'm certain he was more than qualified to teach them to an appropriate level. His own school has its own records of rank in that organisation, it makes perfect sense that his rank is recorded independantly (otherwise you get some of the rubbish that takes place in Traditional_Wing_Chun_Kung_Fu or Wing Chun where some individuals announce themselves as masters of the universe).
- You've convinced me further that a legitmate Jidokwan variant exists which has never joined the WTF and is teaching as a martial art and not a sport. It belongs in the article. The idea of non Taekwondo Jidokwan is interesting. Rpf 08:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
No one, not even your Bong Choi, or Kyo Yoon Lee can join the WTF, no one can, no one ever has. Your very confused. You need to research more. And remember, he decived his students, isn't that a hipocrite? Do you know how he died? Also, you don't realize that all martial arts are sports? The Taekwondo certificate has nothing to do with it. Hiding his students from his lineage was either a racist thing to do, or a cash venture. In Taekwondo, it does not make sense NOT to record your students ranks, where yours came from, unless of course you want to keep all that money for yourself. And trust me, there is no such thing as a legitimate Jidokwan variant, no matter how much you wish it was true, it is not. Such mis-information does not belong in the article, he is a poor example, like I said, I have provided the best example. Best Regards.--Bigzilla 04:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone (18.104.22.168) thought it wise to edit Chong Woo Lee's interview, changing Korea Taekwondo to Japanese Kodokan. I guess they don't understand that it was an interview they were editing? It sees that anywhere that 22.214.171.124 edits, I have to fix it.--Bigzilla 13:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Much of the information in this article seems to have been re-typed directly from this page:
I make no comment except to point this out. Omnedon 13:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Bigzilla states, "Omnendon, some of your edits are good as they make the article more readable, however, you can not edit the article content as I translated this from a Korean interview." The interview is mentioned in the article; but the use of Wiki headings throughout the text gives it the appearance of being encyclopedic information -- hence my edit. If this is taken directly from an interview, then it should be formatted in such a way as to set it apart from the encyclopedic content. Better yet, though, a link could be provided to the URL I mentioned above, as it contains a cleaner translation of the same interview from the August 1997 "World Taekwondo" magazine. Omnedon 15:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
The page you listed got the information from this site: www.taekwondojidokwan.com
I agree that it should be formated as such, however, I do not know how to do that. I believe the original article translation I posted has been altered. I could also provide the original article in Korean language. Maybe you could format the article to better illustrate that portion as a translation of an interview? Bigzilla 8-8-07
Ok I just have to ask if someone knows what is going on here. I go to sites like this one: http://scottshaw.com/q&a.html and I see things like "Chi Do Kwan was created by Pyang, Yon-kue" right next to "In 1953 Yoon, Gae Byong founded Ji Do Kwan." Regardless of the position on the facts being stated about who founded or created Jidokwan, are both of those statements talking about the same person? If so, why are the surnames so out of order? One of them must be wrong, if they're talking about the same person. Reading stuff like this is confusing me. I found it on this also on http://www.combatspecialist.com/taekwondo.html Angelo 06:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
Same person, same Kwan. Shaw and Angelo are just copying and regurgitating information from any source they can find, and in some cases, claiming it as their own, which is funny. It was never translated as Chi Do Kwan, it's always been translated into English as Jidokwan, by Jidokwan. YON Kwai Byeong wrote his name in English as such, we know from the certificates he issued. I would trust what I find on the official site vs. anything wannabe historians put forth. Bigzilla 126.96.36.199 (talk) 06:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Self Promotion edits removed
Edits from MacAurthur Taekwondo and Jung Kim Taekwondo were removed.
Those edits are vandalism. The previous state of the page was all taken directly from the Jidokwan Annual Yearbooks, articles published in the Kukkiwon Taekwondo People's Magazine, World Taekwondo Magazine interview with Grandmaster Chong Woo Lee and the recent 60th Anniversary of Jidokwan program guide from 2006. If you feel there is something that should be added, please discuss it here. Do not vandalise the entire article.
Much original research went into the article.