Talk:Jesus/Archive 32

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New Legacy section

I agree with Slrubenstein that one should participate in the discussion rather than simply delete. However, I also agree with IP 152...'s deletion (not necessarily with his circumstantial explanation) for the reasons given above: this article is about Jesus and not about Christianity (including the faults and misdeeds of Christians). Str1977 15:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Str1977, with all due respect I am reverting your deletion. Here is my basic reason: all the other elements of the "legacy" section are about beliefs and acts of Christians. If you want to delete the paragraph I put in on the grounds that this article is about Jesus and not Christians, then you would have to delete everything else in the "legacy" section. Also, again with respect, please see this discussion too: [1] Slrubenstein | Talk 16:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear Slrubenstein, let's look at the section in detail:

• According to most Christian interpretations of the Bible, the theme of Jesus' preaching was ...

This certainly is about Jesus himself, so no problem here.

No, it is about how Christians interpret the Bible. The subject is "Christian interpretations" Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Jesus extensively trained disciples ... clearly distinguished the religion of Christianity from Judaism ... Christianity spread ...

This is about Jesus' disciples and what they have done, so legacy of Jesus as well.

I am not denying that this is Jesus' legacy, I am only saying that his legacy involves Christians. This sentence refers to the spread of Christianity. If that is one of the legacies, then the unsavory aspects of the spread of Christianity is as much part of the legacy as the praiseworthy elements of the spread of Christianity. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Jesus has been drawn, painted, sculpted, and portrayed ... sayings attributed to Jesus ... view of God as more fatherly and less angry but more forgiving, growth of belief in an afterlife and in the resurrection of the dead.

Jesus himself again.

We may just be at loggerheads, but I would say this is about how Christians have imagined Jesus. It is still about Christians. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• Jesus and his message have been interpreted, explained and understood by many people ...

Jesus and his message again.

Agreed. And I believe the paragraph I added falls squarely within this sentence. It is sad that some people have interpreted Jesus' message in a way that led to forced conversions and anti-Semitism, and I do not claim all or even necessarily most Christians interpreted Jesus this way. But some did. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• For some, the legacy of Jesus has been a long history of Christian anti-Semitism, although in the wake of the Holocaust many Christian groups have gone to considerable lengths to reconcile with Jews and to promote inter-faith dialogue and mutual respect. For others, Christianity has often been linked to European colonialism (see British Empire, Portuguese Empire, Spanish Empire, French colonial empire, Dutch colonial empire); conversely, Christians have often found themselves as oppressed minorities outside of Europe and the Americas.

Here is the disputed paragraph. It already starts with "for some" and gives no explanation of such a link. It only says some think that way, which IMHO is not enough. While the first sentence at least suggested anti-Semitism as Jesus' legacy, the passage on colonialism doesn't even try to draw a link. This is followed up by an equally unconnected passage about oppression of Christians.

We could find specific sources in the Christianity and anti-Semitism page ...Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Now, don't think I just want to delete. Here is my sketch for a alternative structuring:

• Jesus as common ground between Christianity and Judaism (as he was Jewish), but also the basis for many disputes (is he the Messiah or not?), feeding anti-Semitism. Also possible here (instead of above): rapid distinction between C. and J.

• Jesus teaching constituting Christians as a religious minority (open to all, entered by choice) in a majority of different religion leading to ideas of following conscience over coercion (martyrs as example),despite violation by Christians themselves. (Possibly even separation of Church and state - this can be linked with Christianity as state religion and this with the influence on all of European culture).

I also suggest a different ordering:

1) religious (forgiveness, God the Father, 2) disciples, spread, & Judaism, tolerance and state religion ( the last possibly after sayings, to form spread - impact - t/sr) 3) impact on culture (sayings, interpretation, relics, art)

There are few wordings that are problematic as well, I will tweak them. Please consider my suggestions. Str1977 17:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I would have to think more about your suggestions and would have to see how you actually develop them. But I am certainly open to other ways of handling this issue, and I sincerely appreciate your attempt to respond constructively to my approach, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• The legacy of Richard Nixon does not include ONLY what he intended - it also includes reaction to him. Jesus' disagreements with the Jewish authorities and the story of Barabbas have been used to justify anti-Semitism by his followers. Resistance to including this in the legacy is partially due to non-acceptance that Jesus did not know that his teachings could lead to bad things too. 2ndly, many justified colonization as a way to bring Xty to those "poor people" --JimWae 18:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you want to include this into articles on Barabbas and Pilate as well? And I don't want to exclude it - I want to include in a meaningful way, with the link clear instead of a mere "well, some folks think this way". As far as colonialism goes, there is no link at all (aside rhetorics). Str1977 19:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

• I put it in the Barabbas article long ago --JimWae 19:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
• I agree there needs to be more to substantiate the legacy - such as http://www.dissentmagazine.org/menutest/articles/fa05/judis.htm - especially see McKinley. There's plenty to support the linkage earllier too - too much in fact --JimWae 06:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

We also ought to mention things like the development of medicines and vaccines which have saved countless lives, which Christians developed through the years and, if we're mentioning a lot of negative things, deserves mention as a positive part of Jesus' legacy. Lives transformed as many ministries enabled people to flee drugs or domestic violence...the modern peace movement (rooted in Anabaptist thinking)...incredible art, music, literature (which is already mentioned, I believe, albeit briefly)...on and on and on. KHM03 11:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)