Talk:Jamboree 2008 (Northumberland)

Prod

Non-notable, regional event. --jergen (talk) 18:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable - international, multi-organisational event. DiverScout (talk) 13:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable - international, celebration of Scouting at historic monument. Proper 100 years event Julian the Scout (talk) 22:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable - international event which marked the centenary of a crucial point in scouting history. Must be recorded. Porlhews (talk) 00:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Etiquette

Please discuss concerns before simply marking articles for deletion. DiverScout (talk) 13:59, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Jergen, either discuss your concerns here, or leave this article alone. Edit wars serve no purpose and non-WOSM international events (of which this is one) have as much right to be on here as WOSM ones. DiverScout (talk) 10:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Jergen is not being malicious, he has a point-international camps like this take place every year, that of itself does not make it notable. Once the AfD process has started, you may not remove the tag until the discussion has finished. Perhaps someone wants to save this article, if the tag is not there to direct them to the discussion, they won't be able to vote. Please don't remove the tags again. Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Chris, but I do think it would have been better to discuss this within the Scouting Project, possibly proposing a suitable merge, before putting it to AfD. --Bduke (Discussion) 20:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

This is all very interesting, but Jamboree 2008 marked several interesting points in Scouting History. The SA did not have a 100 year celebration near to the site that BP held the first proper Scout camp (Look Wide @ Carr Edge); and although invited, blocked groups from attending - dispite the event being set up as an inter organisational event. It therefore marked a 'C' change in Scouting, as members of the B-PSA extended the 4th Scout Law to the SA in order to facilitate 'coming together' and 'growth', but the SA did not take the opportunity. Despite that fact, there were still those from the SA who attended, including a contingent from the Portuguese SA. If all of the above is not interesting and worth merit, or is conveniently erased by those of the SA wiki-fraternity, then so be it... but it doesn't make all of the above less true! I know all of the above and can evidence it (not that i wish to drag it all out into the light) as i was the instigator of the Jamboree and had several email conversations with DS @ SA HQ. Julian the Scout (talk) 22:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, very interesting. Perhaps you would care to comment on the deletion discussion, as I have done, arguing for it to be not deleted. Note, Jergen is not SA, nor is Chris or I. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Never suggested that any of the three of you were ;) but i am aware that things written about the BPSA often have a habbit of ending up edited by people with a hidden agenda. If you feel that i was targeting you i apologise unreservedly, but it was not the intent! Julian the Scout (talk) 23:12, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Jergen attempted a six day automatic deletion on this, without any consultation, and failed. In his original four-word justification his argument was purely based on it being a "regional event" - when it was clearly international. When he failed to get his way, rather than treat me as an equal and discuss the matter, he has simple tried a second way to delete it.

1. First Jamboree set up to involve multiple Scouting Associations (ironically to attempt to bring us together).
2. Attended by members of both WOSM and WFIS.
3. Only major event to mark the centenary of the first actual Scout camp at Carr Edge.
4. Reported in press around the country, on the BBC and in Portugal.

Jergen has refused to discuss this, and it is this refusal to discuss matters or justify his request that strongly suggests to me that he is being malicious. Since, apparently with the failure of the "regional event" claim, third-party sources are suddenly being cited as a reason (see Humshaugh Courant), I guess that it's going to be my duty to mark a LOT of Scout stuff on Wikipedia for speedy deletion under the exact same criteria.

I would also, hopefully politely, suggest that a Project marking a page for deletion ought to include a link to the Project page prior to initiating AfD, as at least one day has already been taken without people accessing this page knowing who is behind this proposal for deletion, or why they are in a position to dictate common-user content. DiverScout (talk) 23:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

All very technical for me i'm afraid, i occasionally used to check on the wiki entry for BPSA, but am not anything more than an interested bystander unlike DiverScout :) Keep up the good work!!! Julian the Scout (talk) 23:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Not having been in this situation before, where essentially someone who has no knowledge of the event, or its importance can mark an item for deletion... can i ask a rather stupid question??? At what point does this discussion end and a decision get made? Afterall Jergen appears not to find a 100 year event important, does that mean i can justify looking at a whole series of entries and cast a view as to their importance??? I don't hold with acts of war... byebye 1st & 2nd World wars... moon landing - suspect... many books... Anything written by Jergen... the list is endless!!! I don't actually mean that i will (just in case someone doesn't get irony!!!) but i am trying to understand the process :)90.194.235.254 (talk) 20:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Let me make one point clear. This discussion, i.e the discussion here, does NOT mean a thing. The article has been proposed for discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jamboree 2008 (Northumberland). That is the only discussion that matters. That process has clear guidelines. Discussions are closed by an administrator any time after 5 days and that time is approaching. If you want to save the article, add you comments there but read the guideline about what are good and bad arguments for keeping an article. A second point is that, while I support keeping this article, if it is deleted, there are several alternatives about where some, but not all of the material, in this article can be placed. I say not all because it already goes into too much detail in places and will require cleaning up if if it is kept. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:06, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Bduke has the right of it. What should be happening is an effort to provide reliable sources; the only tertiary source is the Hexham Courant article. If you participate in the AfD, I recommend reading Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 22:30, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Ed, there are now several tertiary sources included - Hexham Courant (Northumberland), Lynn News (Norfolk), Primeira Mão (Portugal) and an entry from the Northumberland National Park. Even the very negative comments from the SA County Commissioner, which give background to the attitude that this independent Jamboree was hoping to address, are tertiary source.

As the the others have said, though, all comments need to be placed in the AfD entry (the link to which is fairly well hidden in the text at the top of the page, or through clicking Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jamboree 2008 (Northumberland). Do have a look at the acceptable arguments lists, as there is plenty there to support the fact that this was a notable event, and arguments that fall outside Wikipedia notability will be ignored. Also, make sure that you give a clear reason, as the decision is not made on a vote basis. DiverScout (talk) 12:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The County News article from Northumberland Scout Association appears to have been deleted from their server, is it possible to recover a copy of this article for completeness? guest (talk) 13:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.105.167.123 (talk)

Interesting. Perhaps this marks a change in attitude? One can only hope - as it would be great if this article was able to contribute towards the original aims of the Jamboree and help the SA and the B-PSA start to work together as brother Scouts. I do have a copy of the .pdf, but don't know where to archive it. DiverScout (talk) 13:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The link is OK— the PDF is still there. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 13:59, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this is obvious, but I'm new to contributing to Wikipedia, I accept that this article needs working on, but can anyone provide some thoughts on what to include? I'm going to have a look at similar pages, but I'm always interested in other people's thoughts..... Porlhews (talk) 12:20, 11 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.212.232 (talk)

More info?

It might be nice to have more info. More detail on the organisers - was it purely BPSA or TSA or both together? Was it an attempt at re-unification of the two associations? Was it a success or failure? Reaction from the BPSA, TSA? The article is not altogether clear enoungh on these issues. Answering these may help decide how notable an event it was. mspice2215 212.137.45.109 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that the notability issue has been done to death (see the AfD notes). The article states that members of both Associations were involved, and links to one example of the attitude that it tried to address. I can't help but feel that reaction comments would always be POV, so would not be appropriate for Wikipedia. Success or failure? In whose eyes? Once again we'd be in the realm of POV. DiverScout (talk) 19:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In which case this is just an article about a Scouting event, just one of many that have taken place. Someone somewhere must have felt that it had a degree of relevance and was important enough to include on this web-site, I feel that further info should be included as to the significance of this, it was obviously a joint BPSA and TSA event but there is simply not enough info as to which association organised it and with what agenda. As to the question of success or failure, surely this is straight forward issue, if it was intended as a way of helping to open dialogue and co-operation between the two associations di it work or not - I don't think it's POV to include this. Otherwise I might just as well write an article on a Cub Scout jamboree I went on a couple of years ago as a leader which wouldn't really have much point to it mspice 2215 77.96.231.238 (talk) 18:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, if your Cub Scout jamboree was celebrating something equal to B-P's first official Scout Camp, was held at the same place as that camp 100 years later, perhaps it ought to be on here? The notability has been already established through the AfD discussion, and we surely don't need to repeat it yet again when there is a record of it for those who bother to read it.

The event was not set up by the B-PSA or TSA. That is why the body of the text states, "independent of Associations" in the opening paragraph. That seems a fairly straightforward statement to me, but if you can phrase it better, feel free to do so!

Success of failure is never going to straightforward. Did it succeed in celebrating the centenary of B-P's camp, yes. Did it succeed as an event enjoyed by those who attended, yes (although I've not got the ability to canvass all those who attended). Did it provide training for leaders that could be used in the future? Yes. Has it brought TSA and B-PSA closer together - at the moment, who knows in any form that is allowed for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. DiverScout (talk) 21:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The Jamboree 'was set up to be independant of associations' but you claim that neither the BPSA or TSA were involved in the organisation of this event. This would be a milestone in its own right as a Scouting event which was not organised by a Scouting organisation of any kind! - I'm confused now... I accept, now, the notability aspect i.e. marking B.-P's first ever offical Scout camp, after my years of involvement in Scouting on and off I never knew of this event so at least I've learned something! It does seem to me that there has been an attempt at reconciliation between BPSA and TSA which has not been particulalry successful - that's what I've been trying to get to the bottom of, the article itself has raised this question in my mind. mspice2215 77.96.231.238 (talk) 10:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Jamboree 2008 was genuinely not organised by either Association, it was an independent organisation. As you say, it was the first of it's type in that respect - and this was not something that many people seemed to grasp. If you look on the Jamboree 2008 site it has the Constitution and business plan. DiverScout (talk) 14:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me for asking, but who actually organised this event? - if it wasn't BPSA or TSA then who? Were the organisers connected with Scouting in any way at all? It seems very strange to me that an organisation not connected with Scouting has organised an event to mark an important milestone in Scouting's history, none of this is clear in the article and the responses to my earlier queries have been cagey to say the least mspice221577.96.231.238 (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Apologies is the answers appear to have been evasive - they were not intended to be. As people have said, J08 was an event organised by an independent organisation - independent of the BPSA, the SA, etc. This event was intentionally set up to be independent of any youth organisation, so that as many youth organisations as possible could be invited - keeping in mind the child protection (insurance, etc,...) requirements of all had to be satisfied. It's true to say that the individuals organising the event had a variety of backgrounds - some were BPSA, some were SA, some were from the Duke of Edinburgh's award, some were teachers on their summer holidays and some were complete newcomers. Wherever their origins, the group organising it were the Jamboree 2008 Team - independent of any other organisation, but there to serve as many as possible. Hope this helps - if you have any further questions then I'll do my best to answer or to find the answer for you. porlhews 14:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.248.193.228 (talk)

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