Talk:Isle of Man TT

Added sortable table for fastest race lap by year

Because I was looking for this information all over wikipedia, and the web, and couldn't find it anywhere. Some people (me included) are interested in how the fastest lap times / speeds have progressed over the years, and this table provides the information. Please help fill out details of bikes, precise lap times. Thanks! DMSchneider (talk) 13:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Table of winners?

Not only fastest laps, but why isn't there a list of winning riders/bikes, one for each year? Ideally for every category, but if not, then surely for the senior race. Aside from the World Championship section, some of the results are not even on Wikipedia. It needs to be like Monaco Grand Prix ("By year") or List of 24 Hours of Le Mans winners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.145.187.21 (talk) 21:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I would like to work on this soon. I believe the format used on the North West 200's page would be best suited for this, given that the categories and number of races are different each year. SunflowerYuri (talk) 08:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

speed limits

The 2015 IOM TT event and race guide suggests that speed limits are in place over the Snaefell Mountain Road. "With the circuit being on ... The mountain section from Ramsey to Douglas is one way but speed limits are in place."

I asked: Does anyone know what is the nature of the speed limits in place?

(Later) Okay I find:

• Within www.isle-of-man.org.im there's a document titled "TT Road Races Traffic Management Provisions 2014" (PDF findable by google search): 2014 notices with speed limits from 60mph down to 40mph for various road sections.
• this 2015 notice of road closures titled "TT Road Races 2015 ROADS CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC" without speed limits mentioned...assume 2015 is similar
• What speed is allowed there? where restricted, 40-60mph for 2014 but only certain sections
• Do the limits apply just during racing season? Yes, for 2014, only during 23 May 2014 until 9 June 2014.

• They must not apply during racing and practices; do they apply during the rest of those days and on non-race days, i.e. are visitors being disappointed? It appears the limits do apply during rest of those days and non-race days. Perhaps there is no problem because the limits apply only to certain sections of the course?

• I find no news reports of speed limits first being imposed in google searching; while there are plenty of 2014 hits advising potential visitors that there are none.

--doncram 22:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• [P.S. By the way, perhaps some other articles could be updated: The general Speed limits Wikipedia article states that "The Isle of Man has no speed limit on many rural roads; a 2004 proposal to introduce a general speed limits 60 mph and of 70 mph on Mountain Road for safety reasons were not progressed following consultation." And Transport in the Isle of Man#Roads covers there being no speed limits on most roads, but is less specific at least date-wise: "...in a referendum in the 2000s the introduction of blanket speed limits was refused by the population". There was a government survey reported by British Broadcasting Corporation that might be covered: May 8, 2013 - The Manx government has "no plans" to introduce a national speed limit, despite concerns the current system is "putting innocent lives at risk". ... "A government survey in 2006 received 14,575 responses, with 57% rejecting the suggestion of a 60mph national speed limit and 56% rejecting a 70mph limit on the Mountain Road."]

--doncram 22:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

sourcing help needed, especially for 2015 results

Specific sourcing is needed for all statistics in the article, in my opinion and per general Wikipedia rules. Personal observation is not a valid source for Wikipedia; we are supposed to follow what is reported elsewhere. I just updated the "Lap Records" section as an example of how I believe sourcing for a statistics table needs to be done. This article's information on lap records is current (thanks to many separate editors adding info), by the way, and is reporting better information than the IOM TT website page, which does not yet incorporate any 2015 results. What I did was add a "Sources" column, footnote the title of the column with a general sourcing statement (that all data in the table is from the IOMTT.COM webpage on lap records, except where otherwise noted). For each row not sourced from that (i.e. all the 2015 results), a separate footnote is needed and can be placed in the column. I provided a specific footnote for the 2015 lap record set by John McGuiness for the Senior TT and overall. Footnotes supporting the lap records in Lightweight TT, TT Zero, and Sidecar TT are needed, as indicated by "citation needed" tags for those rows. Could other editors please provide sources for those? And/or help in adding specific sourcing elsewhere in this article? --doncram 19:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

sourcing is required, and yes it is the most dangerous

In Wikipedia, sourcing is required. This article is not the personal fiefdom of any local expert who writes what he wants to without detailed referencing to reliable sources. I'm sorry, editor Plumstix, if you got the impression otherwise, but I am reverting your recent edits. Whether or not the information you added about 2015 results is accurate, what's more important here is changing the "culture" of this editing area. To editor Rocknrollmancer, thank you for your recent sourced contributions to the lede, stating accurately the most salient true information about the nature of Isle of Man TT racing: indeed it is most saliently known as "the most dangerous motorcycle road-race in the world." It just is. And that view cannot be suppressed any longer--as it was in 2014 when I understand you made the same changes--by the dominance of one editor with a narrow POV over this and related articles. No more "personal knowledge". To Plumstix and anyone else, I am sorry if you may perceive a superficial similarity between the previous main editor's perspective here, and my being assertive in this way now. There are some important differences, having to do with degree of respect for Wikipedia's core principles and its community and practices. Comments welcome. Also help sourcing content in the article, or removing it if it cannot be sourced, would be appreciated. --doncram 06:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

who owns, runs, and officially reports on IoM TT racing

Shouldn't the article explain what entity or entities run and report on the TT races? Who owns the name of the race, and other marketing-related assets? Who incurs the financial costs and receives television-related revenues? There seems to be no clear statement yet in the article; I think there should be, probably in the "Description" section. From the IOMTT.COM website, I find at bottom of "Contact" page the following mentions:

• Isle of Man Department of Economic Development, IOM TT Team, 1st Floor, St George's Court, Upper Church Street, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 1EX
• iomtt.com is operated on behalf of the IOM Government Department of Economic Development by Duke Marketing Ltd. (email: admin@dukevideo.com)

That makes clear who is running the IOM website: Duke Marketing Ltd. Is the race owned by the government of the IOM, and administered by government agencies, or is the overall management let out by contract? How this is done may be known already by some editors and by some readers, and should not be the focus of this general article, but some such information should be provided, right? Comments welcome. --doncram 19:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The answers are unclear and may remain so; as with many thing in life, this might involve massive research to achieve a small, accurate overview - the 'Law of Diminishing Returns'. IoM is a clandestine, autonomous tax haven (regarded as offshore). A bit off-topic, but I have been adding to Geoff Duke, who had/owned a thriving VHS-based sport retailing venture, Duke Video. Prior to that there was Sound Stories, a business owned by Stanley Schofield, using vinyl medium. Seeing Geoff Duke's son on TV recently re-inforced that we don't know how these businesses developed, and what part the son or other family members play in the storyline. I'm sure there will be those who do know, at least in part, but would be reported? I'll add it to my list of research items to be conscious of.

As I stated somewhere back in November (?) 2014 during the concerted TT Course Articles for Deletion sequence, the IoM government in conjunction with the TV company/companies have (presumably) invested up-front money as part of a strategic business plan, with fixed-cameras, on-bike cameras and helicopters providing coverage, together with behind-the-scenes reporting and interviews, and as always, almost propganda-levels of promotion (not that I am against this as I am pro-Manx). Resultingly, the TT televsion commentators - one being a Manx-resident, former racer Steve Parrish - will, and do, mention any historic vantage point or landmark, hence the AfD sequence was particularly ill-advised and in Bad Faith, in that there is a consecutive, geographical sequence of historic, named areas; as I stated at the time, the deletion sequence citing notability as a catch-all was mis-applied, challenging WP:AGF in that articles for the consecutive landmarks around a 37-mile course had been established in Good Faith, and could not be randomly deleted, leaving Wikipedia with an incomplete sequence. This, in part, has now been addressed by the work-in-progress List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course; one unsupportive editor has caused massive disruption and down-time, requiring rectification in another way. Completely counter-productive, as any arguably-minor landmarks could have been merged, for example titled as High Street and High Road, Anyplace, Isle of Man.

Exactly which organisations financially benefit, and by how much and exactly when, given the assumed start-up costs, I imagine would be secret and sensitive business information and as such withheld. As part of long-term investigations into the corruption of a few related-articles involving History being re-written by Wikipedia, I made a Freedom of Information request for professional fees paid by the BBC TV Corporation, an arm of the UK Government, to those appearing on-camera giving anecdotal accounts in a pseudo-authorative manner, without any historical hard-copy corroboration. This was refused on an exemption to the UK FoI Act, as I expected it would be; I just needed it formalising for posterity and completeness of research (currently over two years on those topics). I surmise the IoM would be the same or worse where 'ownership' of once-traditional rights are concerned, involving PPFI (Public/Private Finance Initiatives), where governments privatise - through big business involving modern marketing and media - certain aspects of their 'normal' core financial activites.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

This article is a work of crap

This epitomises what happen when there are too many Indians and not enough chiefs. There are too many sections, it's almost a section a paragraph, a lot of what is said is repeated again and again, there is no logical order to the article (eg there is a section on TT history at the end of the article after the results!!?), and it's got no sense of style.

The intro is rubbish. First it says it was once a great race then it says its a dangerous race. Is that the best summation for more than a hundred years of racing?

I also notice as a violation of WP:NOTGUIDE, someone has added visitor info for this year's event. Why not add a few details about hotels or campsite while you're at it?

In conclusion this article needs to be rewritten by someone who knows the subject and has a clear sense of editorial judgement. I'm no editor but I gave up because it's just unreadable. Which is a pity because the TT is a fascinating subject. How many other readers are turned off by this page's overall crapiness? :-( 81.129.95.249 (talk) 17:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

BRD Bold, Revert, Discuss

It may not have been your intention, but one of your edits may have introduced material that some consider controversial. Due to this, your edits may have been reverted. When adding material that may be controversial, it is good practice to first discuss the changes on the article's talk page before making them, to gain consensus over whether or not to include the text, phrasing, etc. If you believe that the information you added was correct, please initiate that discussion. Thank you.

Business Ownership and Name

The business name of the International Isle of Man TT Motor-Cycle Races has always been owned by the Auto-Cycle Union. The commercial or sporting franchise is managed by ACU Events Ltd which is a company owned in full by the Auto-Cycle Union. The Isle of Man TT Races has a large number of commercial and other sponsors and supported by large number of organisations which some of these companies have to undergo a formal tendering procedure.

Official Status of the Isle of Man

The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom.

Previous Consensus

It was a previous consensus by editors that all historic racing information would be transferred to the relevant year page.

Other Edits 15th June 2015

In respect to the edits of the 15th June 2015 in respect to the Isle of Man TT article. The Isle of Man TT is not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it is technically a motor-cycle time-trial. To answer the issue more directly, the Isle of Man TT is statistically less dangerous than other motor-sport events due to the exceptionally very high mileage covered by competitors during the event. There is also the issue of inadvertent bias, lack of neutral point of view WP:NPOV and overall bias as only the Isle of Man TT races have only been described as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ There has been no comparison made statistically or otherwise, when compared to other motor-sport events or other different types of sports and races. It is incorrect to describe the Isle of Man TT as ‘the most dangerous motor-cycle race’ because “It just is” claim and verification is required for this under Wikipedia rules. The Manx Grand Prix where there is a direct comparison as the same Snaefell Mountain Course is used as a venue is “saliently” statistically more dangerous than the Isle of Man TT races. The number of fatal accidents per race is 0.31 for the Manx Grand Prix and 0.23 per race when compared to the Isle of Man TT.

There is ‘Burden of Proof’ required by any editor adding or removing material from any Wikipedia article. The citations provided, previously numbered 2-5 show as what Wikipedia defines as inadvertent bias as they are only dated from 2005-2007 and then 2011-2015 and two of these citations are from Canadian and New Zealand internet sites. It is unclear which citations support which fact as required by Wikipedia WP:INCITE WP:V and also unhelpfully citation bundling has occurred.WP:CITEOVERKILL In respect to citation [2] on the Isle of Man TT page it states that it is “widely reported” as the “most dangerous motor-sport race.” It is unclear if the this citation is supporting the independent verifiability required by any Wikipedia article WP:N or which fact it supports. Wikipedia requires any editor to provided independent notability for any article WP:N and the Isle of Man TT article is about a motor-cycle race not a “dangerous motor-cycle race” as all “motor-cycle races” and other motor-sport events are “saliently” intrinsically dangerous.

The Guinness Motorcycle Sport Fact Book page 120

The Isle of Man TT is not the oldest motor-cycle race and the reference on page 120 of the Guinness Motorsport Fact Book makes no reference to this detail. This is a cut and paste reference placed incorrectly.

TT star fined for taking daughter out of school IoM Today, 9 July 2015

The John McGuinness quotation [2] is actually a newspaper report about a man that that was fined for removing his daughter from school and cannot support the independent verifiability for the Isle of Man TT required by any Wikipedia article and is also a questionable source.WP:N It is not “….the most dangerous thing that I do….” as John McGuinness is a former bricklayer and statistically the construction industry has a very high rate of injury and fatal accidents when compared to other occupations. Also, as a former Morecambe Bay Cockle-Picker this occupation has been described as one of the most dangerous occupations in the UK . This quotation may also be seen as further inadvertent bias as no other alternative view has been provided. WP:NOTRELIABLE The Metro citation of May 2013 mentions the Isle of Man TT competitor Guy Martin and he has given other alternate opinion’s include this quotation about the danger of the Isle of Man TT and he has said:- “Let us manager the ‘danger.’ Go back to mowing your lawn on a Sunday morning.” It is unclear what is the origin of this quote (perhaps the documentary movie ‘Closer to the Edge’) and has been repeated by Guy Martin in a number of different forms.

Isle of Man TT - the world’s most dangerous sporting event Metro, May 2013

The Metro article May 2013 states that the Isle of Man TT is “ ….without doubt, the most dangerous race on the planet.” The ‘burden of proof’ required by Wikipedia lies with the editor adding or removing material. Again, the Isle of Man TT it is not a motor-cycle race but a motor-cycle time-trail and does not fully explain the claim as Wikipedia requires a fact to be verified with a citation and also the citation demonstrate verification. WP:V WP:PROVEIT Also, the statement does not say that the Isle of Man TT is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ only that it is “….the most dangerous race” which is a comparison with other sports. The Metro article then states that; “Never mind just motorsport, this is probably the deadliest of any sporting event.” This a contradiction rather than a clarification of verification required by Wikipedia as “….most….” in the first claim is then replaced with “…..is probably….” in the second claim. It is again unclear which citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia.WP:V WP:PROVEIT

The Metro article does mention the very high death toll among competitors which is a completely valid argument. However, the article is subject to mistake and error as the actual number of fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT is currently 141 rather than 240 in the citation and again does not pass the ‘burden of proof’ required by Wikipedia for any editor adding or removing material. It is again unclear which part of the citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia.

The original edit of 23 October 2013 to the Isle of Man TT articles makes a reference to a “dangerous motor-sport race” and not a “dangerous motor-cycle race” and on the 23th May 2014 the edit was tagged to provide a citation by another editor User:AdventurousMe. In the edit summary for the 25th May 2014, the Isle of Man TT was actually referred to as an “event” not as a “motor-cycle race” and also this term was used as an explanatory note in an editor’s talk-page and as Wikipedia rules require and directed editors to the talk-page of the Isle of Man TT in respect to safety discussion. This internet references states [23] that the most “deadliest” motor-sport event is actually 1). Dakar Rally followed by 2). Le Mans 24 Hour Race, and 3). Isle of Man TT. The Metro citation contradicts its own argument in declaring that MotoGp when compared to the Isle of Man TT as a “slightly safer environment.”

The most dangerous sporting event of earth? The Guardian, June 2007

The Guardian citation June 2007 states “The most dangerous sporting event of earth ?” This is a rhetorical question rather than an actual claim. This then followed by “The Isle of Man TT race, 100 years old this week, has claimed 223 lives” It does not state that it is the “most dangerous motor-cycle race” and then contradicts the initial claim in the lead title as it “….could well be….(the most dangerous sporting event on earth.) ” rather than it is the “most” dangerous sporting event. Again the number of fatal accidents to competitors is quoted as a “tragic statistic” in the Guardian citation which is currently 141 and not 223 and again is subject to mistake and error . It is does not explain why the event is dangerous or why the event is the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ After carefully reading the article it is difficult to analyse for the purposes of verification required by Wikipedia due to the ‘journalistic hyperbole,’ ‘outrage journalism’ and “tub-thumping rhetoric. ” The Guardian citation of June 2007 is unclear for the verification required by Wikipedia and may have described the reason for the “tragic statistic” as “dumb luck” rather than the event being “dangerous.” It is again unclear which part of the citation supports which fact as required by Wikipedia. The reference also fails to state that the Isle of Man TT Races have also been held on the St Johns Short Course, Clypse Course and the Billown Circuit without any fatal accidents to competitors.

What do the ‘statistics’ mentioned in the Guardian article of the 2nd June 2007 actually reveal ? This internet reference "10 Deadly Sports That Can Get You Killed";- [24]that the most dangerous sporting event is 1) Cave Diving and the Isle of Man TT is listed at number 10). This reference "Top 10 Incredibly Dangerous Sports" [25] list the Isle of Man TT at number 4). and again Cave Diving at number 1). This further reference "Most Dangerous Sports" [26] list motor-cycle racing at number 88). and the Isle of Man TT at number 92).

Due to the event being a motor-cycle time-trial the event could be considered less dangerous as the risk of collision and racing accidents is less when compared to a “motor-cycle race” including at the start of a race or during the race or restart behind a “safety-car” due to all the competitors starting together. For example, during the US round of the 2015 FIM World Superbike Championship two competitors died in a collision at the start of the race held on the Laguna Seca race track which is lined with concrete “walls” and has “kerbs”. During the 2015 Great North Run, a competitor died during a “sporting event” and in 2005, four competitors died. In the 2015 Spanish Granada Rally, an accident to a competitor resulted in the death of six spectators, including two pregnant women and a child under the age of 16 years. In comparison, 14 people died in 2015 on Mount Everest after an avalanche caused by a nearby earthquake in Nepal.

To “break the connection” with the Dakar Rally with an edit summary of “speed power walls trees kerbs are incomparable” is the use of fresh air thinking and a declaration of bias.WP:NPOV The Dakar Rally and the Isle of Man TT are both time-trails, both have different classes (Dakar Rally – motor-cycles, car and trucks;- the Isle of Man TT – motor-cycles and sidecars) and both these events along with the Le Mans 24 hour race have had deaths involving spectators. Therefore, it is not possible to “break the connection” and in particular the Dakar Rally and Le Mans 24 hours race are unusual as both of these events have more spectator fatalities than deaths amongst competitors. WP:NPOV It is expected under Wikipedia rules to start a BRD discussion on the appropriate talk page rather than using the edit summary in this manner to truncate any discussion or bypass any criticism. Although, rules of verifiability do not apply to talk-pages, the statement that the Isle of Man TT is the most dangerous race because “It just is” claim would require further explanation. It is also inappropriate to archive a previous discussion on the Isle of Man TT talk:page in respect to safety aspects to the Isle of Man TT, despite being inactive for a number of years. Other editors in the Isle of Man motor-cycle network of articles have found the comparison with the Dakar Rally and the Le Mans 24 hours races of interest and worthy of further discussion.

To ignore fatal accidents to spectators/(race officials) would again suggest what Wikipedia describes as inadvertent bias in these references and overall bias as only the period 2005-2007 and 2013-2015 has been considered with an emphasis on USA/Canadian/New Zealand internet references. With the Isle of Man TT there has been a large improvement with safety during the period 2004-2015 with a reduction in the number of fatal accidents, although during this period there has also been two spectator fatalities and one fatal accident to a race marshal.

In respect to the speeds of up to 200 mph, the record official record for highest top speed was actually recorded at the Ulster Grand Prix of 207 mph (?) and this is comparison of top-speeds of in excess of 220 mph on the Mulsanne straight at the Le Mans 24 Race. It is also another example of inadvertent bias as these references only concentrate on the period 2005-2007 and 2013-2014. For example, in respect to the accident to R.O.Clark at the 1920 Isle of Man TT, the top speed of a 250cc motor-cycle would have been no more than 80 mph and like the Dakar Rally, motor-cycles competed on loose gravel surfaces until at least 1925. When the Isle of Man TT is compared to the Indianapolis Speedway as mentioned in the Guardian citation, up to 1939 racing season the Isle of Man TT has only 15 fatal accidents to competitors compared to 39 deaths at the Indianapolis 500 Race in the same period 1911-1939. The Indianapolis Speedway 1911-1939 had a loose gravel surface, a brick surface and then tarmac. Also, the Gordon Bennet Trails and RAC Tourist Trophy races for automobiles held on the Isle of Man during the period 1905-1922 there were no fatal accidents amongst competitors. The Indianapolis 500 Race, along with the Dakar Rally, Le Mans 24 Hour Race and the Isle of Man TT that these events have historical had a long complicated practice structure, race and/or event structure and where personal exhaustion, fatigue and mechanical failure have also played a significant part in any accidents, fatal or otherwise.

Montreal man to compete in world's most dangerous motorcycle race Canada AM, CTV News, May 2014. Retrieved 2014-06-24

The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 states that “Montreal man to compete in world’s most dangerous motorcycle race” WP:NOTRELIABLE and does not state that this referring to the Isle of Man TT Race. The CTV News citation then states “….is considered the most dangerous motorcycle race in the world” and then again the Isle of Man TT race is not directly stated and then the article contradicts itself by changing from the “….most….” to “….is considered the most….” WP:VERIFY Again, there is no explanation for the claim other than “considered” which is another example of inadvertent bias. What is “considered” opinion and why non – “considered” opinion not been included ? What are the other most dangerous motor-cycle events listed numbers 1 to 10 ???? In retrospect, “considered” opinion would “saliently” suggest that one of the most dangerous motor-cycle race is the Tandragee 100 Races in Northern Ireland. This internet reference [27] when compared to motor-cycle racing in Northern Ireland the Isle of Man TT is "....like a cushy ride in the park...It’s called Irish road racing and here’s why it’s the real king of danger...." Other motor-cycle events that in “considered” opinion would be more “dangerous” than the Isle of Man TT Races in no particular order include the Swiss Grand Prix at Bremgarten Circuit, Ulster Grand Prix (pre-war Clady Circuit and Dundrod circuit), Belgian Grand Prix (Spa Francorchamps pre-war), Solitude Gp, Eifelrennen Gp ( Nürburgring - Südschleife), Dutch TT (pre-War van Drethe circuit), German GP (pre-war Sachensring and Nürburgring - Nordschleife) and the North West 200 (pre-war and post-war period up to 1979). Other “dangerous” motor-cycle races would include the pre-war Swedish Gp and the post-war Yugoslavian GP and the latter event was also boycotted by in 1973 by competitors in the FIM World Motor-Cycling along with the Isle of Man TT. The Canadian CTV News citation of May 2014 then states that the Isle of Man TT has “….claimed the lives of 240 bikers” and this is unclear if this fatal accidents to competitors and is incorrect as again the current number is 141.WP:VERIFY

The Isle of Men: The World’s Deadliest Race Time, August 2014.

In comparison, the Time citation of August 2014 does not describe the Isle of Man TT Races as the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race’ as it describes the event as “perhaps the most dangerous” or “one of the most dangerous.” races rather than ‘ the most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The Time citation also mentions that two fatal accidents to competitors occurred which is correct and the reference to the fatal accident to a “field marshal” (?) is not correct. A reference to a fatal road traffic accident is made. However, the number of fatal and non-fatal public road traffic accidents (RTA) at the Isle of Man TT has fallen significantly from 2004 when compared to the period 1985-2003.

Isle of Man TT: Best pictures from the world's most dangerous motorcycle race Mirror, June 2015

The Mirror citation of June 2015 has as headline of “The Isle of Men: The World’s Deadliest Race” and this is an inaccurate description of the Isle of Man TT Race and fails the criteria for independent notability required by Wikipedia WP:N . However, it then describes the Isle of Man TT as “the world’s most dangerous motorcycle event” (ie again, not the actual Isle of Man TT Races) as the “most bizarre conditions for motorcyclists.” The explanation for this is an unsubstantiated claim is that motor-cyclists ( ie non-competitors (?) ) “were forced to dodge animals on the winding roads.” WP:NOTRELIABLE

The deadliest race stuff.co.nz, Fairfax Media, 21 August 2011

The New Zealand citation from Fairfax Media August 2011 has a title “The deadliest Race” (again not mentioning the Isle of Man TT or giving an explanation for verification required by Wikipedia). It then states the Isle of Man TT as the “world’s most prestigious motorbike race” and not the ‘most dangerous motor-cycle race.’ The last paragraph of the Fairfax Media citation then end with the claim of “Death is inextricably part of the TT's appeal” and with Wikipedia rules that this citation should be considered a highly questionable source.WP:NOTRELIABLE WP:VERIFY

All of these US/Canadian/New Zealand or UK internet sources do not explain why the Isle of Man TT Races is the “most dangerous motor-cycle race” or claim that it has “been widely reported.” There is again issues of as inadvertent bias, of plagiarism and is at best as Wikipedia describes as a “circular reference” or at worst inadvertently reinforcing a “circular reference.”

The limited US/Canadian/New Zealand or UK internet sources internet also fails to make it explain that the Isle of Man TT Races has been a typical motor-sport event. Fatal accidents to competitors at the Isle of Man TT have occurred as with other motor-sport events including other motor-cycle races due to mechanical failure, racing collisions with other competitors, racing accidents including other “racing incidents” which are typical of any general motor-sport event. There have also been fatal accidents at the Isle of Man TT due to the nature of the Snaefell Mountain Course and poor weather caused by the Isle of Man micro climate. There has also been other fatal accidents which have been due to the nature of motor-cycle road- racing and the structure of competition of the Isle of Man TT Races and perhaps not found at other motor-sport events. Nevertheless, these fatal accidents should be seen in their correct overall historic perspective. There are also a number of undetermined/non-researched fatal accidents that do not fall into these categories. agljones(talk)15:47, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

World’s fastest way to die: The most dangerous race on the planet 8th July 2015 News.co.au

The total number fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races is 143 and not “246 killed” as stated by the internet website source News.com.au dated 8th June 2015;- “World’s fastest way to die: The most dangerous race on the planet ” a citation as added by the User:Paste by edit [28] of 11:55, 31 May 2016. The ‘burden of proof’ lies with any editor adding or removing text. WP:BURDEN and any citation has to be verifiable. WP:V

The edit of 09:45, 7 June 2016 by editor 74:215.220.218 added the text that;- “It is stilled billed in popular culture as the most dangerous motorsport event in the world, with over 246 fatalities in its history.” This text addition of the edit 09:45, 7 June 2016 also has no citation for independent verifiability WP:V (or independent notability WP:N if this was the intention for the edit) for the article and is unclear if it relates to the citation from News.com.au of the 8th July 2015. WP:MADEUP, WP:BIAS, WP: QUESTIONABLE

As this text has no citation WP:QUOTE, WP:V the edit was removed by edit of 08:27, 28 January 2017 with an edit summary “Claims by 92.39.201.206 not supported by citation WP:V See BRD and Isle of Man TT Sky News report at 18:37 pm BST for Saturday 11th June 2016.” This edit was reverted by User:doncram on 15:26, 28 January 2017 with an edit summary “remove date in infobox which was changed to a future date. It is an annual event, doesn't have just one date. Remove whitewashing about deaths.”

It is presumed that the editor User:doncram is using the meaning of whitewash as a metaphor to indicate “....a perfunctory investigation or through biased presentation of data....” The article “World’s fastest way to die: The most dangerous race on the planet ” in the citation it states that the;- “....the Isle of Man TT (Tourist Trophy) Race has seen more fatalities than any other motorcycle race — albeit in 100 years. “ and that “ Many of the 246 killed in the race were professionals taking part in fastest division, the Senior TT.” The citation has attempted to clarify the situation that the number of fatal accidents has occurred over a period of 100 years. However, the citation from News.com.au article of the 8th July has then stated that;- “But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.”

Again, the number of fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT races is 143 rather than “246 killed” in the citation. The event referred to as “Mad Sunday” by the citation is not a competitive motor-cycle racing event which may have been suggested by the quotation. “Mad Sunday” is a an unofficial, non-sanctioned, informal event which had its basis in the very early 1920’s with the illegal riding of racing motor-cycles at the Isle of Man TT Races by competitors on public roads. Any fatal accidents that do occur on ‘Mad Sunday’ which may include accidents to pedestrians and other types of road vehicles are classified as fatal road traffic accidents on public roads and should not be included as fatal accidents to competitors. The edit of 09:45, 7 June 2016 by editor 74:215.220.218 and the reverted edit by User:doncram of 15:26, 28 January 2017 both refer to “….most dangerous motorsport event….” whereas the quotation from of the 8th June 2015 from News.com.au actually refers to;- “….a motorcycle race…” (see above BRD discussion of 25th December 2015). The citation is not reliable WP:QUOTE WP:V, WP:MISTAKE and again it is unclear if the original and reverted edit relates to the same News.co.au of the 8th July 2015 citation as both state “246” fatalities.

The summary for the BRD discussion, it is unclear when the last fatal road traffic accident on public roads occurred on “Mad Sunday” and there may have been only one fatal accident since 2011 or perhaps 2007 or earlier. This compares to the Nurburgring Nordschleife which when not closed for racing is a privately operated toll-road. Taking into account issues of Circular reporting and feedback loops, ‘outrage journalism’ and alternative facts, the news internet sources report that each year at least 2 or 3 fatal accidents to members of the public occur at the Nurburgring Nordschleife using the toll-road. These fatal accidents on the Nordschleife toll-road are not included in the total number of accidents to competitors at the Nurburgring racing circuit.agljones(talk)20:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I just want to point out that a time-trial race is just a type of race and is technically a motorcycle race. You your self even contradict your own words by you yourself calling it a race. Also even on the official website it is called Isle of Man TT Races. I think also by excluding the fact that many sources say that it is regarded as the oldest and most dangerous or deadliest race is contrary to a neutral point of view WP:NPOV and a overall bias. I do think the rest of your points were spot on. 72bikers (talk) 22:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It is partially correct to consider an (individual) time-trail as another type of race and a reproduction of the original 1907 race programme refers only to the ‘International Auto-Cycle Tourist Trophy.’ The Ultra-Lightweight races in the 1920’s, the post-war Clubman TT races and 50cc Ultra-Lightweight TT races and the Isle of Man TT races on the Clypse course were all run as a mass grid-start rather than a time-trail format. A point about a time-trial in safety terms is that the risk of racing collisions between competitors is substantially reduced, particularly at the start of a race, although a fatal accident did occur at the start of the 1978 Sidecar TT Race with a crash on Bray Hill involving two racing sidecars. Similar events road-racing events on public roads, include the former Targa Floria and Mille Miglia were considered to be time-trials rather than ‘races.’ In regard to Rallying, these are also run as a time-trail as a timed Special Stage and not considered to be a “type of race.”

In respect to overall bias WP:BIAS or a neutral point of view WP:NPOV it is a requirement to work within the narrowly defined Wikipedia structure of independent verifiability WP:V or independent notability WP:N for articles. The editing of the article was to correct factual errors rather than an issue of bias WP:BIAS or a neutral point of view WP:NPOV. Internet or newspaper articles in respect to the Isle of Man TT Races relating to just one side of any point of view in the article are either not reliable, inaccurate or do not qualify for inclusion due to Wikipedia rules of independent notability WP:N, independent verifiability WP:V or are considered as Original Research WP:OR. (see talk:pages Windy Corner, Isle of Man article.)

As you can see from the BRD discussion, internet and newspaper articles about the Isle of Man TT Races are often full of mistakes, misunderstanding and plainly incorrect facts and often do not fulfill the Wikipedia rules of ‘reliability’ for independent verifiability WP:V or independent notability WP:N. In respect to being a “reliable” source that under the rules of independent verifiability WP:V that “….the content is determined by previously published information….” rather than just;- “….the beliefs or experiences of its editors.” In regard to the Isle of Man TT races; - “….the fact that many sources say that it is regarded as the oldest and most dangerous or deadliest race….” may be considered by Wikipedia as a ‘local consensus’ due to Confirmation bias and Common Knowledge which disrupts the normal editing process.

Also, as can be seen from this BRD discussion, many of these poor quality internet articles that do not match the narrow Wikipedia standards are caused by Circular reporting or ‘feedback loops’ that are either created or reinforced by Wikipedia articles. This includes the News.com.au article of the 8th July 2015 which refers to another internet report from Jalopnik [29] and this separate internet reference refers to the “Snaefell Mountain Course” rather than as stated by the 2016 Isle of Man TT Race Guide which refers to the “Isle of Man TT Mountain Course” which may suggest that Circular reporting or a “feedback loop” may have been created. The News.com.au article also very incorrectly refers to the event of ‘Mad Sunday’ as a competitive motor-cycle event as follows;- “....Many of the 246 killed in the race were professionals taking part in the fastest division, the Senior TT. But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.” WP:MADEUP As noted in this BRD discussion with edit of 20:30, 6 February 2017 the text originally added by user IP address on 74:215.220.218 on 09:45, 7 June 2016 has no citation for quotation WP:V and the News.com.au publication of the 8th July 2016 does not support in any way the contention that;- “It is stilled billed in popular culture as the most dangerous motorsport event in the world.” WP:V, WP:N, WP:CITE

From this current BRD discussion other internet articles [30], [31], [32] contradict the view that “….it is regarded as the oldest and most dangerous or deadliest race…..” The Isle of Man TT Race may be the currently the oldest race that is still held annually, but it is certainly not the oldest motor-cycle race. However, when both side of the argument are sufficiently covered which is not the case at the moment WP:NPOV, then these issues, subject to “reliable” or accurate citations which avoid Circular reporting and ' feedback loops' created by Wikipedia articles WP:V, WP:QUOTE they can may be covered in perhaps in the safety or culture section or where relevant in the appropriate year article (eg. 1972 Isle of Man TT Races) rather than the ‘lede’ or Executive Summary. agljones(talk)11:37, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Is a wall of text really needed? Time trial races are races, and it is common knowledge this format is for safety. Individual time trial and time trials are races as confirmed by there articles, though Wikipedia is not to be used as a reference. The very fact that it is in this format just confirms how dangerous this race is. Can you show one reliable source that contradict the official website The Isle Of Man TT Races? Your explanation that it is a rally and examples of this do not contradict the fact that it is still a race, rallying is still racing[33]. This is taken from the official Targa Floria website, The magical setting of the departure, the special stages ran between two wings of the crowd, the public assistance and hug at the finish line, make it unique Sicilian race. But The Isle Of Man TT are not even called a rally they are called races. I can not even count how many times it is called a race on the official website or even on the article here on Wikikipedia. Also by your reasoning the official website is not to be trusted? But that is not to say that some things found on this subject are indeed not reliable. But to argue that any online source or newspaper in respect to the Isle of Man TT Races is unreliable also seem a bit absurd. I think that vast majority of Wikipedia editors would disagree with this thinking. And there is processes in place to deal with these issues, such as Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Look I admire your passion for Isle of Man TT, I too am a fan. But it would seem your passion for this race is clouding your neutrality WP:NPOV or maybe even bias WP:BIAS. And that you are merely trying to exclude anything that you might think would tarnish this prestigious race. Cheers 72bikers (talk) 20:58, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

This discussion follows the BRD policy WP:BRD which is an is an optional method of reaching consensus. The issue in regard to the name was not part of the original BRD discussion which was about resolving the issue of independent notability WP:N for the article and the disputed citation of edit 10:40, 16 July 2015 by editor User:Rocknrollmancer which is now an unusable internet dead-link. The article name and the time-trial format are not disputed in this BRD discussion.

The time-trail format was chosen by the Auto-Cycle Union in 1907 for the first International Auto-Cycle Tourist Trophy race due to the emphasis on ‘touring’ rather than ‘racing’ motor-cycles and also due to the problems with extensive cheating by competitors at the International Cup Races. The time-trial format was in common use at the time and may have been a condition of acceptance by the IoM local authorities for approval for the 1904 Gordon Bennett Elimination Trial and the 1905 Tourist Trophy Races for automobiles held in the Isle of Man after the disastrous Continental City to City races.

The choice of the early Highroads Course or Four Inch Course for automobiles or the short St John's Short Course in 1907 for motor-cycles may have been selected along with use of the time-trial format to actually discourage ‘racing’ between competitors along with problems with dust on dirt roads. The use of the time-trial format prevents racing collisions between competitors at the start of a race such as the 250cc motor-cycle race at the 1973 Italian Grand Prix. The time-trail format is also used to prevent collisions between competitors being lapped by the race leader’s and a seeding system was introduced for the 1959 Isle of Man TT races. The recent reduction at the Isle of Man TT Races since 2008 of grid size, the increase of the qualification time and racing in qualification order has been used to create separation in the time-trial format between competitors to reduce ‘racing’ and collisions between competitors. There is a difference between racing against the clock in a time-trail format and ‘racing’ between competitors created by a ‘mass-start.’ The short-circuit style ‘racing’ at the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix races is actively discouraged through threats of exclusion, fines and endorsements to racing licences. The problems of ‘racing’ between competitors and a flawed application of a time-trial format can be seen by the fatal accident to works Ferrari driver Alfonso de Portago at the 1957 Mille Miglia.

The issues of the BRD discussion were to correct information which Wikipedia allow in respect to the process of independent verifiability WP:V The incorrect use of citations is not permitted by Wikipedia and the burden of ‘proof’ lies with any editor adding or removing text. WP:BURDEN Any text additions without citations will be challenged and removed. WP:V The comments of the edit 11:37, 10 February 2017 accurately identify that there are sources which give a different point of view to the inaccurate News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 and the correct process is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or safety section which is a correct application of the BRD process.(talk)20:15, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that it is in this time trial format for safety issues, as I stated is common knowledge. And again thank you for confirming that it is indeed a race. CHEERS 72bikers (talk) 01:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

The total number of fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races is 143 with this event held on the Isle of Man TT Mountain Course or ’TT Course.’ There is no issue of "Whitewash" and the edit summaries for these terms contradict each other. Editors should not use the edit summary description box as a continuation of the article WP:MOS and Wikipedia does not permit original research. WP:OR The publications such as Isle of Man TT & MGP Memorial and the Sunday Times article The Quick and the Dead will give editors more back-ground knowledge of the subject. agljones(talk)19:17, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

News.com.au citation 8th July 2015

The issue with the News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 is that the author of the article may have confused the total (2016) number of 143 fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races with the completely separate 2015 total number of 246 fatal accidents to the competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which also included fatal accidents at the very separate Manx Grand Prix races held at different time of year. Therefore the News.co.au article and citation of the 8th July 2015 does not fulfil the Wikipedia rules of independent verifiability for the quotation. WP:V

The current 2016 total of fatal accidents to competitors is 252 for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course which includes 143 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT races and 108 fatal accidents to competitors during the very separate Manx Grand Prix now part of the Isle of Man TT Festival of Motor-Cycling including the new Isle of Man Classic TT races. The total of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT Races for 2016 event is 143 fatal accidents to competitors, 2 fatal accidents spectators, 1 fatal accident race marshal, 2 fatal accidents non-competitive parade lap, 1 fatal accident unofficial testing, 2 race marshals fatal road traffic accident on public roads, 1 fatal road traffic accident TT Travelling Marshall on public roads, 1 fatal accident to competitor unspecified on public roads and 1 further undeclared fatal road traffic to a race marshal on public roads with a total of 154 fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT races.

The News.co.au citation of the 8th July 2015 very clear states;- “…..the Isle of Man TT (Tourist Trophy) Race has seen more fatalities than any other motorcycle race — albeit in 100 years…..” and the same citation refers to “246 killed.” The News.com.au citation of the 8th July 2015 states that;- “ Many of the 246 killed in the race were professionals taking part in the fastest division, the Senior TT” and then the News.co.au citation then clarifies the situation and states that;- “But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.”

The reverted edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 [34] by editor User:doncram states;- “undo whitewashing about deaths, again. Article is clear that 143 deaths are of competitors and that total is 246.” The News.com article clearly states “246 killed,” but nowhere in the article can it be found that it states “143 deaths” which the edit summary of 19:38, 7 February 2017 refers to and again stating the edit summary for the article of 19:38, 7 February 2017 that  ;- “….Article is clear that 143 deaths are competitors….” The “143 deaths are competitors” is the current 2016 total and not the total at the time of writing of the article in on the 8th July 2015 when the total would have been 139 fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races.

Neither of these facts of either ‘139’ or ‘141’ fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT Races are stated anywhere in the citation from the article from News.com.au. dated 8th July 2015 and Wikipedia is very clear that in regard to independent verifiability WP:V that;- “In Wikipedia, verifiability means that other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source…. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it….” The article News.co.au does not state the correct reason for the remaining 107 fatalities and the article states in the fifth paragraph that;- “…..1970, six competitors lost their lives, with another racer perishing during the island’s Manx Grand Prix later the same year” and very incorrectly refers not to the Manx Grand Prix races but to;- “…..But others were amateurs, who compete on the 60km Snaefell Mountain Course on “Mad Sunday”, in the middle of the two-week event.” Fatal road traffic accidents (RTA) on open public roads during the accident reporting period of the Isle of Man TT Races by the Isle of Man Police Constabulary including ‘Mad Sunday’ should not be considered to be included in the total number of fatal accidents to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races as suggested by the Newscom.au article of the 8th July 2015. Again the article clearly fails the process of independent verifiability WP:V and Wikipedia does not permit the synthesis of sources WP:SYN or Original Research WP:OR.

Graham Walker Article (1954) titled “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic”

An alternative point of view to be considered is shown by an article in the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme written by Graham Walker a former Isle of Man TT winner, pre-war European Grand Prix competitor, BBC broadcaster and journalist. The article titled;- “A Cloud over the Mountain ? Comment on a Controversial TT Topic” written by Graham Walker as a Consulting Editor of the ‘Motor Cycling’ Magazine contains a number of comments about relative safety and danger at the Isle of Man TT Races. The article written by Graham Walker for the 1954 Isle of Man TT programme states that; “….on a rider-mile basis more fatal accidents occur on Continental circuits than in the Isle of Man, but that details of these accidents are seldom published in British newspaper's….” Any current Isle of Man TT citation or quotation not referring to the historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” for the Isle of Man TT rate of fatal accidents may itself be unfortunately biased WP:BIAS or not offering a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as suggested by other Wikipedia editors. The historic much lower “….rider-mile basis….” rate of fatal accidents for the Isle of Man TT is the view stated by the Isle of Man TT race organiser as recently as the 2015 and 2016 Isle of Man TT Races.

Summary for BRD discussion

Any single citation or article which refers to the Isle of Man TT Races as the most “dangerous or deadliest race,” does not offer a neutral point of view WP:NPOV as required Wikipedia rules. As suggested previously with edit of the 20:15, 13 February 2017 [35] the correct process for Wikipedia is to cover all different points of view in perhaps a ‘culture’ or 'safety' section including the point of view suggested by the graham Walker article (1954) and the same the views of the Clerk of Course (2016) which is a correct application of the BRD process.agljones(talk)13:02, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Too long, didn't read. Yet another discussion titled "BRD" or variations, which is not descriptive of the subject. Instead this seems to be yet another assertion that the editor is aware of wp:BRD, for which they wish to get a medal? To discuss that page, the editor should post at its Talk page, not here.

I read enough to see this is another tirade asserting that the TT races on the Isle of Man are peaceful and safe, which is absurd considering the fatal accidents. It's a dangerous race, and is famous for that. --doncram 14:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed with Doncram A wall of text is not helpful and will not be fully read. Your removal of sourced information that you replaced with what appears to be just unsourced WP:OR opinion, has been undone. You have no other editor to agree with your argument but many are in disagreement with it. Therefore you have no consensus for you actions.72bikers (talk) 18:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Disputed

For purposes of clarification for other editors, the Isle of Man TT Races and the Manx Grand Prix are two separate events. For 2017, the total number of fatal accidents for competitors is 146 for the Isle of Man TT Races. The total number of fatal accidents to competitors for the Isle of Man TT (Mountain) Course is 255.
agljones(talk)19:31, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

promotional and bureaucratic content in lede

In this edit i just removed overly promotional and bureaucratic content from the lede paragraph. In addition I corrected the wording to avoid false claim that the race has been run annually since 1907, which is contradicted by the article further below. Some of the bureaucratic stuff could possibly be relevant to the article, and could be restored somewhere, but not in the lede. Also there is a citation supposedly supporting an assertion that this is the most prestigious event of all kinds in the universe, ever. Perhaps the source does say something worth quoting, in a quote, but we don't allow over-statements to be made in Wikipedia's voice. Some puffery is allowed and is even appropriate in the lede, in my view, but what was there was not appropriate. --doncram 14:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Bogus reference removed

I have removed a reference added by seemingly an American Orangecones in this change, 18 April 2017.

The source (Auto Overload - now at Facebook) is deadlinked, can be seen here at Wayback. Note the amateur, improper use of capitalisation throughout the headlines shown.

A possible earlier source is at this Italian forum, but I'm not prepared to waste any more time on it.

This corner depicted is no point on the TT course and from the advertising (Fairyhouse) may be a location in Ireland. The caption does not state during TT races, and there is no way to conclude it is even a TT rider who was run-over at another circuit

This should never have been added and is basically irresponsible, not to mention raw URL/ un-formatted.

These sources breach WP:RS, and WP:SYNTH in adding it to the TT race article. Flagged up by Agljones, just this one alone took me 30 minutes (OK, casually, having breakfast (brunch) and watching MotoGP free practice).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Orangecones (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2017 (UTC) Thank you for your guidance

Orangecones I know I stated I would not waste further time - but it's actually been instructional and helpful for me - it wasn't that difficult to deduce after a mental process of elimination. The location is Finnegan's Corner on the Skerries 100 race course (in Eire, now called Ireland). This youtube video shows the race action and the position of the stills-photograpers.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 03:02, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Orangecones (talk) 03:46, 30 October 2017 (UTC) Thank you Rocknrollmancer you are correct and it's been instructional and helpful for me too....

Shortened lede 24/9/19

I've just transferred most of the lede to the main article, but for some reason, there isn't a contents box. Perhaps someone could correct this. Thanks. Valetude (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Requested merge of cancelled events

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Agree with merge. Moreover the all the info about the 2001 cancellation is already here. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 17:20, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

---

Both the 2001 and 2020 events didn't happen, and so are not notable enough for separate articles with no content about them. Probably worth a mention (few sentences) somewhere in the main article that these were cancelled, but neither 2001 or 2020 event passes WP:GNG. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

The general editor consensus for the Isle of Man TT article is that any general (historical) information may only be incorporated at the year page of other article/section as appropriate and not in this article WP:NOTBLOG. In this case this would exclude the cancelled events or other race information currently in the article which should now be moved to the correct year page/article. WP:CONSENSUS Agljones (talk)09:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Where is that WP:CONSENSUS? And a local guidelines don't overrule WP:GNG, neither of these cancelled articles have enough information and sources about them to be independently notable. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

The editor consensus can be found within the different archived sections of the talk pages of the Isle of Man TT article WP:CONSENSUS.

The issue of WP:GNG is separate problem for the 2020 Isle of Man TT article which includes at least one reference to a BBC website article and other references for independent notability WP:N can be found. The 2020 Isle of Man TT article has now been redirected to COVID-19 pandemic in the Isle of Man page and this article does not mention the cancellation of the 2020 Isle of Man TT races or other Isle of Man sporting or social events (?) Agljones (talk)16:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

I would argue against this proposal. There is no obvious place in the main article to include the information of the events which where cancelled, and it is not where someone wanting to know what happened in a given year would look. The current arrangement - seperate articles for each year, including the cancelled years - is far superior from a user perspective. (executive summary: the proposal is a silly idea.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:300:CA70:F09B:7A18:C79D:C330 (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Support merge proposal; notability isn't inherited (so, just because Isle of Man TT is notable, doesn't mean that 2001 Isle of Man TT is). The 2001 page is a permastub, best managed on the main Isle of Man TT page. Klbrain (talk) 23:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

• Support - this is easily dealt with - and should be - in a new section, particulary considering the 2021 races have been cancelled very recently. For completeness, the new section should also incorporate the 1940-1948 period when there were no races due to war and aftermath. I will not write this content due to the long term WP:OWNership of a disruptive CoI editor regularly interfering with my contributions (thanks for the evidence ).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 01:50, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where does the name "Tourist Trophy" come from?

None of the articles on any of the "Tourist Trophies" explains the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:DF:974B:4259:996A:894E:B553:598B (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

What aspect of the name are you querying? I would guess "Tourist". Racing on public roads in United Kingdom was prohibited (still is, with certain exceptions which I don't understand - see Oliver's Mount). The Isle of Man is autonomous (self-governing) being outside of the UK and UK laws. It is not part of Great Britain, but is situated within the British Isles. IoM was approached to run the races on their roads in the early 1900s. There are/were several layouts of road racing courses - see Clypse Course and Billown Circuit for examples. The majority of competitors were visitors from outside Isle of Man - hence were tourists, not natives of the island. Hope this helps. --Rocknrollmancer (talk) 00:54, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The original Tourist Trophy was a race for touring cars, held on the Isle of Man in 1905. The motorcycle version started two years later and presumably borrowed the name. Racing on public roads in mainland GB was permitted, but required a special Act of Parliament – which they got for the Birmingham Superprix F3000 street race – though AIUI the rules were relaxed somewhat in 2017. Mr Larrington (talk) 02:24, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

There was motorcycle racing on the seafront near Liverpool, 1970s(?) exact name of locality escapes me (senior moment ).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Remembered - New Brighton.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Deletion of content and sources

I saw in Revision history that an inexperienced editor, SunflowerYuri, is responsible for a lot of red deletions recently, such as: ...this paragraph was outdated so I fixed it, I had to remove a bunch of sources that were way too outdated to be relevant.

Major deletions need to be discussed first - this is normal Wikiquette.

I have posted at the editor's Talk page, but needs to be annotated here. Credit is due for the edit summaries. I don't have time available to fix such deletions, or even to read through them. 82.13.47.210 (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Failed edit summary internal link

When editing a few minutes ago, I tried to add a clickable link to Wikimedia Commons in the edit summary which didn't work, targeting an En-Wiki page. Interested parties can see the deleted text and edit summary comments in this simple link. 82.13.47.210 (talk) 18:52, 17 January 2024 (UTC)