Talk:Irinej, Serbian Patriarch

Recent developments

Please, delete this section, it is pure WP:POV. Patriarch's statement is taken out of the context, and saying that it "was seen as a new call for genocide against Muslims" is incorrect. The references say that this was said by Muamer Zukorlić, and if Zukorlić said something, it does't mean that it's "seen". Vanjagenije (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Patriarch admitted his mistake two days ago, so his statement is not taken out of context. I agree the second part of the sentence could me re-written. Do you have any suggestion or proposal? Rochass (talk) 21:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I think this section should be deleted altogether. If we start writing down every single statement from an important figure, which doesn't have that much effect (after he was attacked for his statement, he quickly apologized and that was that), we'll cram the article with a bunch of information that is more fitting for a newspaper story than an encyclopaedia article. --Cinéma C 22:40, 31 January 2010 (UTC) Actually, his words are not well translated in english. He said that muslims "behave in a good manner when they are outnumbered", not that "they are good only when few" - which can be understood completely out of context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.200.38.29 (talk) 15:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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It's OK. Vanjagenije (talk) 00:41, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Another fantasy title ! So-called "Patriarch of Serbia" ?

This is really incredible and its happening in the year 2016, in spite of all internet tools that are at our disposal. Why are we using fantasy titles that never existed? As I wrote in talk section on the Patriarch Pavle page, heads of Serbian Orthodox Church are called Serbian Patriarchs, not "Patriarch of Serbia" ! Such title has never existed in history and it surely does not exist now. No head of SOC was ever called "Патријарх Србије" (Patriarch of Serbia). The real title is: "Патријарх српски" (Serbian Patriarch): "Патриарх" is a noun - Patriarch, and "српски" is adjective - Serbian. Everyone can look at the Google Books for so-called title "Патријарх Србије" : just 9 (nine) hits :) And real title: Патријарх српски has 3260 hits !!! This page should have title: "Serbian Patriarch Irinej" because he is "Serbian Patriarch" and not "Patriarch of Serbia". Same goes for other Serbian Patriarchs from the foundation of the Serbian Patriarchate to the present day. So please, go to web page of Serbian Orthodox Church in English: there you have an official translation of the Constitution of SOC, look at the article no. 11 that defines the title of the patriarch as: "Archbishop of Pech, Metropolitan of Belgrade and Karlovac, and Serbian Patriarch" !!! So, there you have it: Serbian Patriarch, not "Patriarch of Serbia" !!! (http://www.spc.rs/eng/church) Sorabino (talk) 23:59, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

• @Vanjagenije: Thank you very much for fixing that problem, its OK now. Sorabino (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20101220061539/http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=11&dd=15&nav_id=70920 to http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=11&dd=15&nav_id=70920
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100202053558/http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=01&dd=26&nav_id=64769 to http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society-article.php?yyyy=2010&mm=01&dd=26&nav_id=64769
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120318095357/http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/174298/Irinej-Nema-razloga-da-se-zazire-od-Evropske-unije to http://www.blic.rs/Vesti/Drustvo/174298/Irinej-Nema-razloga-da-se-zazire-od-Evropske-unije
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120720175936/http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=01&dd=11&nav_id=78230 to http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=01&dd=11&nav_id=78230
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029202922/http://www.balkans.com/open-news.php?uniquenumber=168062 to http://www.balkans.com/open-news.php?uniquenumber=168062

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Tense for sentence with known long period in the past

• "He was the first bishop of Niš between 1975 and 2010, and then the patriarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church from 22 January 2010 succeeding Pavle, until his death."

Is it better to use "had been" here? Both actions had lasted for some longer period in the past; "between" and "from [...] until" point to lasting action, not short period for which past simple tense is used (with characteristic moment-defined adverbs "yesterday", "last year", "x time ago").

See Uses of English verb forms#Past perfect progressive (in this case, ... verb in question does not use the progressive aspect... is applicable, "had been being" is ugly, progressive aspect for "being" as a verb non-natural and/or rare [same for verb "last", at least as I can understand it as non-native speaker]).

I've got bold and changed it to:

• "He had been the first bishop of Niš between 1975 and 2010, and then the patriarch of the Serbian Orthodox Church from 22 January 2010 succeeding Pavle, until his death."

--5.43.72.55 (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Just be bold. See WP:BOLD --IndexAccount (talk) 17:59, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Recent renaming

@Anthony Appleyard: @Veverve: Please check the #Another fantasy title ! So-called "Patriarch of Serbia" ? section above and also Category:Patriarchs of the Serbian Orthodox Church. I guess the title Irinej, Serbian Patriarch would be more appropriate (if you really need a dab)... Also, the link from WP:ITN/RD points to the dab page at the moment. 91.219.24.115 (talk) 20:50, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Ah, it seems to be more complicated:

• First, Stephen moved it from Irinej, Serbian Patriarch to Irinej (Serbian Patriarch) with a brilliant summary "Article title"
• Then JHunterJ moved it from Irinej (Serbian Patriarch) to Irinej with summary "WP:PRECISION"
• And now Anthony Appleyard moved it from Irinej to Patriarch Irinej of Serbia per request at WP:RM/TR

Some consensus should be reached... 91.219.24.115 (talk) 21:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Please feel free to request a renaming, although I believe the current title is clearer. Veverve (talk) 21:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

It's not clearer, it's misleading. There is no title called Patriarch of Serbia. His title literally means Serb Patriarch. Serbs everywhere, not just in Serbia. The name of the church is also misleading. Killuminator (talk) 00:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Nowhere is he called "Patriarch of the Serbs" Veverve (talk) 00:51, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I have searched various sources and could find no support for the title "Patriarch of the Serbs". As such, without support from a reliable source, I would not support a change in renaming this section of the article. Jurisdicta (talk) 03:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Search the original source, article 13 section 2 of the constitution of the Serb Orthodox Church for the full title. Patrijarh srpski meaning Serb Patriarch NOT Patriarch of Serbia. Also, Patriarch of the Serbs is something you two used, not me but even that is a close translation --Killuminator (talk) 07:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

AP calls him "Serbian Patriarch Irinej".--Astral Leap (talk) 08:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC) sock

That's much closer but English speakers don't differentiate srpski and srbijanski, a difference a native would know. --Killuminator (talk) 08:04, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Killuminator: Am I right in guessing that srpski means "of all Serbs" and srbijanski means "of Serbia"? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:26, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Pretty much. Srpski - anything to do with Serbs, srbijanski - anything to do with Serbia as a country or Serbia proper. --Killuminator (talk) 12:27, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

• Hi, @Anthony Appleyard: could you please justify why did you harmonise the page name with e.g. Chrysostomos II of Cyprus, Epiphanius I of Ukraine, Patriarch Theophilos III of Jerusalem, as you mentioned, and forget to follow harmonization with Pavle, Serbian Patriarch, German, Serbian Patriarch, Vikentije II, Serbian Patriarch, Gavrilo V, Serbian Patriarch etc. Thanks. Just to point out that the Irinej's page was previously moved twice on 20 November by JHunterJ and Stephen from the original title Irinej, Serbian Patriarch. Also seek a comment from @JHunterJ: here. --DragonFederal (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  It's Serbian Patriarch, but it ought to be Serb Patriarch. People who moved the article to its current name don't know anything about the language or the people in question. --Killuminator (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  I agree with it (Serb Patriarch). Chrysostomos II of Cyprus is the head of the Church of Cyprus, Epiphanius I of Ukraine is the head of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, Patriarch Theophilos III of Jerusalem is the head of the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem. The Anthony Appleyard's move would make sense only if Irinej was the head of the Orthodox Church of Serbia, but he wasn't. --DragonFederal (talk) 08:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Veverve:. Could you explain your request for the page move as above? I have mistakenly put forward a question for Anthony Appleyard. Thanks. --DragonFederal (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  @DragonFederal:@Killuminator: I requested this renaming because it was not acceptable to have the page simply titled "Irinej", and I took inspiration from the titles of the current heads of the other Eastern Orthodox Churches. Feel free to request a renaming to the official title if you have reliable sources. Veverve (talk) 10:05, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  I'm a casual Wikipedia editors so I don't know how and where to request this. The same titled is used for his predecessors and elsewhere. This page is the aberrant one and I've given you a citation for their constitution. --Killuminator (talk) 13:40, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Killuminator: you can give your source and arguments at Wikipedia:Requested moves. You can also use the "XFD" option of Wikipedia:Twinkle. Veverve (talk) 14:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

• I believe my edit summary WP:PRECISION covers the move I executed: Irinej was a redirect to this article when it was at the title Irinej (Serbian Patriarch), which indicates that the parenthetical qualifier is not needed. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:19, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  @JHunterJ: this name is no acceptable; your guideline even states "On the other hand, Horowitz would not be precise enough to identify unambiguously the famous classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz." Veverve (talk) 12:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

  @Veverve: apparently the name I encountered was not acceptable, which is fine. If there's a better title (without parentheses), that's beside the point. Horowitz doesn't redirect to Horowitz (classical pianist), but if it did, WP:PRECISION would suggest it be moved to just Horowitz. Redirecting Irinej to any of the titles discussed here other than the one it pointed to when I encountered it is different than the situation when I moved it. -- JHunterJ (talk)

• @DragonFederal, Killuminator, and Astral Leap: User:Veverve asked for the page move, and I obeyed it. It seemed sensible. Best ask him. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. I would ask him than. --DragonFederal (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 23 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:22, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

 Moved (closed by non-admin page mover) — IVORK _Talk 23:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

---

Patriarch Irinej of Serbia → Irinej, Serbian Patriarch – It should be moved back to the title as it was until 19 November 2020. IndexAccount (talk) 17:26, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support, Yes, I've given my reasons above. This was an ill-advised move based on a misunderstading of the title, language and culture. http://www.spc.rs/eng/church-- Here is their own constitution, on their own website, in English! Article 13 section 2. Case closed hopefully. @IndexAccount: @Veverve: Killuminator (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support, more closely follows reliable sources.--Astral Leap (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support Vacant0 (talk) 14:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support In line with the titles of similar articles. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 01:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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