Talk:Illusive Man

Game Informer #214

Apparently the Illusive Man was ranked the top villain of 2010 by Game Informer's February issue. Unfortunately, I don't own the issue and probably never will, so I can't confirm it or add any actual commentary Game Informer might have given as a reason. If anyone does have the issue, you'd be my newest best friend if you checked. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 16:17, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

I left a note for Sesu Prime from the WPVG reference library. czar · · 17:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

There's not much, but here's the photo and ref info:

{{cite journal |author=''Game Informer'' staff |year=2011 |month=February |title=Top 10 Villains of 2010 |journal=Game Informer |issue=214 |page=32}}

Cheers, sesuprime 05:30, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, my newest best friend. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 09:31, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Species capitalization

Re: 21:49, 9 May 2013‎ Bellum Stellarum (Got to disagree over the races; since we're writing about Mass Effect, we should probably write them as used in Mass Effect. Willing to discuss issue on talk page if any disagree with my disagreement.)

On the species: I don't think capitalising "Drell" or "Turian", for instance, is the right way to go. As a species -- much like "human" -- they tend to be referred to with a lowercase first letter. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 14:34, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

All offshoots of the list of fictional extraterrestrials refer to alien species as proper nouns, which they are for all intents of an encyclopedia. I know the ME Wikia doesn't do this, and I'll grant you that it does look nicer, but they're also an in-universe wiki with less rigid standards. czar · · 17:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

— Wikipedia:Peer review/Illusive Man/archive1

Has there been previous dialogue on this topic on other talk pages? I haven't been able to find it. Also alien races like the Flood, Reapers, Collectors are capitalized. If the ME Wikia is being used as the guide, they use race and species as interchangeable terms (they're just "alien races" everywhere else). But using fan wikis isn't reliable anyway, and the wikis vary in their capitalization of the ME races (Giant Bomb and IGN capitalize). Anyway, races are capitalized in all other fictional alien races on Wikipedia and to keep them lowercase would be to stay in-universe against MOS. (In addition, the races should be parenthetically introduced with their first use in an article, as they are otherwise jargon.) czar · · 17:35, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

• Wikipedia usually takes the out-of-universe, normal capitalization approach. So I'd support that... Sergecross73 msg me 17:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I think that's a bit of a misreading of WP:WAF. The point of it isn't to always do the contrary to in-universe style all the time no matter what. It's to make sure the distinction between discussing fiction and the reality around the fiction is noticeable and firm. I don't think using lower-case to refer to fictional alien species has that effect of blurring writing about fiction and reality so I would say it's fine. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:08, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned WAF not because this issue blurs reality but, from a MOS perspective, it makes the articles harder to read (or to understand, for an outsider). The current reasoning for using lowercase is that the series does it, but since no one outside of universe does, I'm asking to revisit that logic. czar · · 00:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• (Edit conflict) Reapers, Collectors are capitalised in-game and in codexes. For capitalisation, I roughly used the in-game codexes and subtitles to see how the game views it, and one of the ME comics I own. Anyway, from an out-of-universe perspective, I see very little reason to capitalise them. Just deliberately going against ME when sources tend to switch around isn't any better than going by it. When discussing in-universe elements, such as species/races, I think we should go by in-universe standards, not just random tendencies for others to capitalise stuff -- roughly speaking, so long as it doesn't interfere with readability. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 18:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

• If that's in response to me, I'd like to point out that I was referring to standard capitalization for the English language, not "random tendancy". That being said, I don't mean to hold up progress if consensus is otherwise. I don't follow the ME series so Im no expert. Just passing by to give my 2cents. Sergecross73 msg me 00:15, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• I think we should generally be accommodating to alternate/uncommon spelling and grammar usage, but if it's a mixed case it might be best to use secondary sources to provide guidance if the primary materials disagree. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

E.g., IGN capitalizes, Edge capitalizes, Eurogamer capitalizes, and the other main reviews don't name races. I don't remember what they did in-game, but I'd argue that it'd be fine in-universe in-game (actually, it's pretty smart). Yet from the stance of an out-of-universe encyclopedia, fictional races should be capitalized as the proper nouns they are: Martians, Wookiee, Klingon, Betazoids, Quarians, Krogan alike. czar · · 00:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Right now, I'm a bit too tired to debate the issue -- I'll get right on that in the morning, as you do -- but I will say that, whatever we decide here, we should probably edit all the other Mass Effect articles as well, not just this one. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 01:21, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

My body is ready. czar · · 01:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

• I understand both points of view here and I don't think one is any better than the other. Now, as Bellum previously said, if we have to capitalize the names of the races, we should probably edit all the other Mass Effect articles in the process to keep consistency. --Niwi3 (talk) 13:15, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Good to hear, Czar. :P

Proper nouns are specific things. I.e. Garrus, is a noun. A turian is a generic thing, a species, akin to "human" or cow. As a species and all that, even a fictional one, they should be lowercased -- other sources that use capital letters are simply wrong, and use it simply because it comes most natural them, when other sci-fi have chosen to capitalise their species. The Collectors are a group, a specific thing, and so get capitalised (as would the Turian Hierarchy, a named organisation that tends to ecompass most turians). In all honesty, the rules of language treat this kind of thing as a general grey area -- the best thing we can do is go with how the material itself treats them, do to anything else would be inaccurate. After all, if every source started calling the turians "truians", it'd still be inaccurate to call them that within the article (though it'd be worth making a note about how they're often referred to as such).

Also, in other news, I really hate proper nouns; it's not a concept I'm well-versed in. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 13:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

As a species and all that, even a fictional one, they should be lowercased—then what do you make of every other fictional species on Wikipedia's capitalization? Or the Mass Effect 3 reviews linked above, which all capitalize the species/races? (And to say that these reliable, secondary sources are simply wrong and just do what's natural to them is ungrounded—they have strict style standards, as does an encyclopedia.) The only reference you appear to be working from is the in-game style. And unless the in-game style trumps the practice of reliable, secondary sources and ME is somehow treated differently from every other science fiction with alien races, I believe I've made my case with sufficient evidence of the precedent. czar · · 17:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Bellum brings up a good point. That a species is fictional doesn't automatically make it a proper noun. The English language has this rule in order to distinguish humans and pandas from Human Development Index and Panda Express. Forcing capitals onto every instance of a fictional species name will erase this distinction. I also think it's a little dangerous to hold the weight of Wikipedia precedent against any single article, as that generates a glacial level of conservatism and resistance to change on an individual level. Sometimes you're right and everyone else is wrong. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Science fiction's capitalization of species-races is standard (as reflected in WP, not vice versa). I don't claim to know how the in-game style works, but even if the Turians come from Palaven and the Krogan from Turchanka, they are treated as the Turian and Krogan nations under the Council, which makes them and their citizen-species-race proper nouns everywhere outside of the fictional universe. I know this space is gray, particularly for this series, so know that I am not personally invested in seeing this through but only raised concern because I saw something funky and my research checked out. (Your last line may be applicable to that situation.) czar · · 21:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not familiar with Mass Effect's specific stance on this issue. Maybe you're completely right. From a more general standpoint re:WAF, I don't think it's good to do whatever the opposite of in-universe style is just because. There has to be a reason to break style and I don't believe there is one in this case (IF indeed race names are lower case in Mass Effect, of course). If they are actually capitalized, this discussion is moot. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

A collection of codexes from within the game. Now, obviously fans have copied those down, but the vast majority of them are accurate. I didn't actually use the wikipage -- I looked at the game itself -- but this is probably easier to look at than asking you to possibly buy the games, boot them up, etc. The game itself puts them in lowercase, while capitalising Prothean, Collector, Reaper, and I think Keeper. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 21:36, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Since we've talked the for/against through, I'll set up a RfC to establish consensus. czar · · 02:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Request for comment

Should the names of the alien races in the Mass Effect series be capitalized or lowercased? 02:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Notified WP:VG, WP:SF, and the talk pages of Template:Mass Effect articles (which would be affected). czar · · 03:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes - even if it isn't the standard when discussing a real world species, it IS the standard when discussing fictional ones, and that's just as real and compelling a precedent. Euchrid (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Lowercase per my reasoning above. You lose the distinction between humans and pandas from Human Development Index and Panda Express. WP:WAF is not about being contrarian to in-universe style; it's about clearly defining the difference between in- and out-of-universe perspective, which using lowercase does not interfere with. Precedent is not law. Axem Titanium (talk) 14:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hello, I have been invited by RfC Bot. .I see no reason for capitalisation other than the first letter (because they are names). No other articles that refer to alien species capitalise them fully, so why here? So therefore I oppose MisterShiney ✉ 19:22, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a misunderstanding here. The suggestion is not to capitalise them completely (e.g. BATARIAN), but just to capitalise the first letter. I maintain that quarian, turian, etc. are no more names that, say, "squirrel". The governments -- the Migrant Fleet, the Turian Hierarchy -- are names, perhaps, but the species themselves are not. E.g. Tali is a quarian of the Migrant Fleet. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 20:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
    • OOPS! My bad. I retract that and SUPPORT the capitalisation at the beginning of a name. Because at the end of the day, it is just good writing and a standard grammatical rule that capitalise the beginning of any and all names, fictional or not. -- MisterShiney ✉ 17:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: If we capitalise the species, should we capitalise humans? Humanity are not a fictional species like the others, but similar arguments can be made -- we generally don't capitalise human in real-life, but when we refer to them in the Mass Effect context, should we change it? It's a different issue, but it'd be a bit inconsistent if humans remained lowercase unlike the others. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 20:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I think we should maintain the same format. Lowercase for talking about humans but uppercase when speaking about stuff like the Council of Humanity or the United Earth Republic of Humans or whatever it's called. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:55, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. czar · · 06:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• No - Our standard here should be the in-universe use. This is distinct from adopting an in-universe perspective which blurs the line between reality and fiction, and detracts from Wikipedia's encyclopædic tone. It is similar to the use of foreign terms where we follow the usage of our sources. Our sources do not capitalise, so neither should we. Andrewaskew (talk) 06:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

But then you get In-Universe tone which is what Wikipedia tries to avoid. -- MisterShiney ✉ 18:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I addressed this distinction, an in-universe perspective is distinct from the use of in-universe terms and spelling. The problem is created when we abandon an encyclopædic tone, which no-one is suggesting we do here. Andrewaskew (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe the user is implying that using the in-universe spelling breaks the encyclopedic tone. czar · · 02:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Also on what basis do you base "our standard here should be the in-universe use"? Was there previous consensus or is this your opinion? Our sources do capitalize because their English standards trump the in-game codex. czar · · 06:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It is neither simply my own opinion, nor an argument from consensus. I am making an analogy to pre-existing Wikipedian policy, the policy on foreign terms. Andrewaskew (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I meant consensus as in, "the primary way decisions are made on Wikipedia ... accepted as the best method to achieve our goals" (WP:CON), not the link to the fallacious argument. What part of MOS:FOREIGN are you referencing? If I'm not mistaken, the only part of the policy that may be applicable is, "For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete." I enumerated how our reliable sources capitalize the race names in my !vote below. czar · · 02:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Give it a rest. The discussion will be settled one way or the other, you don't necessarily need to reply to every opposing post. Andrewaskew (talk) 03:26, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Capitalized: (1) It's what the reliable, major sources do: IGN, Edge, Eurogamer, and academic papers on Google Scholar too, (2) It's the standard for science fictional alien races and the standard adopted by all other fictional alien race articles on Wikipedia, (3) Encyclopedia articles are written in out-of-universe style, specifically such that a reader foreign to the series can understand the main material and explained jargon with a familiar, consistent style standard. Out-of-universe style capitalizes these names. czar · · 06:00, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
• Lowercase: Not all sources capitalise; for example these sources ([1][[2][3]), though a perhaps larger amount do. However, game developers, both when discussing the subjects in and out-of-universe always lowercase the races (barring the occasional exception I haven't seen); the subjects, as their authors dictate, are supposed to be spelt with lowercases. While other sources often change this, the subject itself remains lowercase-intended, and the primary source overrides the secondary. For instance, there are similar stances to when a subject is often referred to as different, but nonetheless incorrect, name, such as the "Mad" Hatter. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Your cited examples are most likely typos because "Turian" is usually capitalized on their sites (PC Gamer and GamesRadar) and their official reviews both capitalize alien races: PC Gamer "Turian", GamesRadar "Krogan". The other reviewers consistently capitalize. (Also your links #s 1, 3, and 4 are the same page.) Re: "the primary source overrides the secondary"—It's very clear that the guidelines prefer secondary over primary. czar · · 17:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, copied the wrong links there, and now I've lost the fourth link. Anyway, the preference for secondary sources stems from the risk of original research. Secondary sources are preferred because they can be accurately used for analysis, etc., which is not an issue here. – Bellum (talk) (contribs) 18:41, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

• Just a neutral observation. I usually see lower case for peoples, and upper case for the proper names of states and nations. The Mass Effect races are sometimes both. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:15, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

No image of the Illusive Man

We need an image please. Preferably a screenshot from Mass Effect 3. Zakawer (talk) 14:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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