Talk:Human wave attack

Red Army during WWII

There is an issue with this article around the vagueness of the term “human-wave attack” and its tendency to be applied only as a derogatory term against the opposing side in a war. This is most clearly demonstrated by the inclusion of the Red Army during the Second World War, a contention which is completely out of step with historical academia.

The exact nature of attacks during the Winter War is debatable, but it’s inclusion in this article is certainly warranted by the weight of scholarly evidence as evidenced by the strong sources in that section. The section on the Second World War itself, however, is supported by only a single source from the questionable website historynet.com written in 1999 by an American author whose primary qualifications seem to be his work as a consultant in Hollywood. The article discusses the battle at Seelow Heights exclusively, and the only instance of the phrase “human-wave attack” appearing is a completely unsourced statement that a supposed German officer named “Heinz Wilker” (I could find no evidence that such an officer even existed) had “personally held off 14 human-wave attacks… at Stalingrad”.

I personally find these claims doubtful in the extreme and additionally point out the impossibility in disproving a statement supposedly made only once and in passing more than 50 years before the article was published. The section on the Red Army in WWII will thus require a genuine and verifiable source which provides specific examples in order to avoid outright deletion.

I will also point out that the academic community has largely rejected accusations that the Red Army engaged in human-wave attacks against the German military on the Eastern Front, with many pointing to orders issued by the Stavka specifically forbidding such assaults (including one issued by Zhukov declaring that officers ordering frontal infantry assaults were committing criminal acts) and the fact that Nazi propaganda routinely portrayed defeats of their forces by Communist enemies as the result of enormous human waves overwhelming German positions in order to cover up German failures on the battlefield.

This article requires a lot of additional work and cleanup, most clearly evidenced by the claims made of the Red Army during WWII. Puma6374 (talk) 16:49, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said and would be okay with removing and replacing the dubiously sourced text entirely. Carlp941 (talk) 17:53, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I just want to point out that one of the sources given for the Stalingrad human wave attack claim is:

"Stalingrad Press Coverage". research.calvin.edu. Retrieved 2022-12-27.

This webpage appears to be a translation of German war propaganda. I have no reason to doubt that the University's translation of this is accurate. But Nazi German war propaganda can NOT be used as a source since it is both WP:FRINGE and a WP:Primary source. This is a good example of a bad citation.  selfworm^Talk) 19:40, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Selfworm: Absolutely. I've removed the claim about Stalingrad. Definitely requires further investigation as to whether Finnish-perspective accounts can be considered reliable for this. Kges1901 (talk) 20:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

2022 russian invasion of Ukraine

Should we mention this tactic being used in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine by the Wagner Group?

References

86.130.93.91 (talk) 10:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

The second citation should be disregarded, its from a heavily biased subreddit with an out of context picture of men of unknown identification moving across a field. AmaduesALPHADELTA (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that Wagner has been conducting mainly squad-sized frontal assaults, which, while highly attritive, are nothing like the picture in the article. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 08:27, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Wagner and the RAF have used barely trained, untrained, and poorly equipped convicts, mobilized, and volunteers to conduct multiple waves of essentially suicide attacks to tire out and deplete all the ammunition of Ukrainian troops with the objective of taking ground or softening up positions for assault by better troops. They have used barrier troops to enforce these wave assaults, arbitrarily executed their own who balk, and mistreated their own survivors of these actions. Because they’re not massed like in a particular picture of a nineteenth-century infantry assault, which may or may not represent a human wave attack, does not mean they’re not human wave attacks.  —Michael Z. 15:20, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

ISW, for example, mentions this tactic by this name in multiple articles.[1]  —Michael Z. 15:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

If these are not human wave attacks, then there are no human wave attacks. GliderMaven (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The section as it stands now is clearly biased. One side 'claims' there are human wave attacks, then the author goes on to say that 'numerous sources' (who?) say they aren't HW attacks, and then lists two examples, one of them a YouTube video, the other an article that barely touches on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:464A:20B5:0:BD4B:7596:5028:9A42 (talk) 17:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

From what I've seen, there have been claims of both Russia and Ukraine using human wave tactics but no evidence. Also the media could confusing them with infiltration and shock tactics Salfanto (talk) 15:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

There's plenty of evidence indicating that Russia is using human wave attacks. What evidence is there suggesting that Ukraine is doing the same? Betelgeuse X (talk) 20:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

1. Can we use the evidence as a source?

2. What is the source?

3. Again, is it being confused infiltration and shock tactics? Salfanto (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The evidence is in this article, see the sources listed. So again, what sources state that Ukraine is using human wave tactics? Betelgeuse X (talk) 20:04, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

I think in regards to talking about supposed Human wave attacks from both the Russian and Ukrainian side, neutrality, not bias writing, and context is important. For example, the battles in which the claims of human wave attacks were made Salfanto (talk) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Giving roughly equal WP:WEIGHT to Ukraine using human wave attacks as Russia whose tactics have been well published in WP:RS seems like a bizarre solution from a neutrality standpoint, if that's what you're actually concerned with. I don't even think that the sources you added mentioned the terms. TylerBurden (talk) 19:14, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The politico source mentioned "Syrskyi’s also known for leading forces into a meat grinder in Bakhmut, sending wave after wave of troops to face opposition fire." Here's the link to the source: https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2024/02/08/zaluzhny-is-out-the-butcher-is-in-00140206 Salfanto (talk) 20:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources state that Russia is using human wave tactics. List the sources stating that Ukraine is doing the same. Betelgeuse X (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

1. Politico: "Syrskyi’s also known for leading forces into a meat grinder in Bakhmut, sending wave after wave of troops to face opposition fire." https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2024/02/08/zaluzhny-is-out-the-butcher-is-in-00140206

2. Euromaidan Press "The surprising losses contributed to Ukraine pivoting to slowly rely primarily on dismounted infantry attacks on foot with light arms rather than risk additional vehicles." https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/12/07/why-ukraines-counteroffensive-failed-wp-analysis-in-7-minutes/

3. Euromaidan Press "After abandoning armored attacks after the first days of heavy losses in the 2023 counteroffensive, Ukraine switched to infantry assaults to dredge through Russian minefields under drone-filled skies. The subsequent meager advances near Robotyne came at a great price" and "He sent soldiers to pointless assaults that gave only slight tactical gains without artillery support, leading to senseless death." https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/02/10/syrskyi-in-zaluzhnyi-out-what-to-expect-from-ukraines-army-reshuffle/

4. David Axe from Forbes "Several Ukrainian vehicles took hits—and the assault collapsed. The surviving infantry bailed out of their MaxxPros. Some retreated north; others scurried south toward Novodarivka. Desperate to support the soldiers heading south, Ukrainian commanders ordered a second breach of the minefield. But the result was the same. “Two more Russian tanks emerged, moving at pace toward the column and firing.”

By now it was clear to the Ukrainians that a frontal assault was suicide. But with a platoon-size force—several dozen soldiers, all survivors of the initial two breaches—isolated on the northern edge of Novodarivka, commanders were confronted with an impossible choice: abandon the survivors, or risk a third assault.

They chose the latter—and got lucky. “One group in platoon strength worked its way along the breach, using the immobilized vehicles as cover, while fires suppressed the Russian positions,” Watling and Reynolds wrote. “Another platoon situated to the west noted that a fold of dead ground had become viable as the repositioning of Russian forces in the village removed it from view, while dense foliage prevented overhead observation by drones.” https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/06/disastrous-armored-assaults-taught-the-ukrainian-army-to-flank-russian-defenses-instead/?sh=3d571cb92fb1

5. TASS (note that TASS is state media) "The Russian forces repelled several attacks in Rabotino (Ukrainian:Robotyne). The attacks of the Ukrainian Armed Forces do not stop, it’s wave after wave.https://tass.com/defense/1757377

6. TASS "Kiev madly and recklessly sends more and more forces for 'meat assaults.' It is due to such frontal attacks that the enemy has heavy losses."https://tass.com/politics/1763299

RT also mentions Ukraine using "frontal assaults" and "waves" but wikipedia does not consider it to be a WP:RS source and it is on the Wikipedia:Deprecated sources list. https://www.rt.com/russia/592184-ukraine-commander-syrsky-unpopular/ Salfanto (talk) 20:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Human wave attack is not the same thing as frontal assault

Combat in the American Civil War and WWI is not defined as "human wave attack". It was conventional linear formation combat. The term "human wave" infers a less organized attack meant to swamp with overwhelming numbers , which was not the case in previous wars, and the very nature of the term implies that the tactics are being used in a modern battlefield in place of more conventional tactics. By the definition of this article every attack made through most of history was a "human wave attack". The American Civil War was one of the first where attacks were made WITHOUT the intent of using a bayonet charge as the ultimate confrontation.

Idumea47b (talk) 20:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)