Talk:Holy Trinity Cathedral, Hong Kong

Location

I am fairly sure the church is located in Kowloon City District, but not Kowloon City. It is next to Ma Tau Chung / Ma Tau Wai. Just like all the place name of HK, sub-district level address are often disputed, so please cite the exact address used by the church itself or how media usually refer the church neighbourhood. Matthew hk (talk) 09:18, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

For electoral constituency. As of 2019 election, https://www.eac.hk/pdf/distco/2019dc/final/dc2019g.pdf it is part of Ma Tau Wai (constituency). Matthew hk (talk) 09:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• Electoral constituencies are not generally used for HK articles on WP since they are often redrawn and do not necessarily match up well with actual area delineations as the locals would generally recognise them. The official website lists the location as being in Kowloon City, not Kowloon City District ("九龍九龍城馬頭涌道135號"; http://dek.hkskh.org/holytrinity/contactus.aspx?lang=2). Kdm852 (talk) 06:51, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

However, official address often omit the word "District". Kowloon City proper was considered the place around the Kowloon Walled City, while the address also shown the church is located on "馬頭涌道" Ma Tau Chung Road. Map (香港大地圖, 2018 edition) also shown it is not marked as part of Kowloon City but the pages Ma Tau Wai-Ma Tau Kok. (and it is next to To Kwa Wan station, extra level of confusion to outsider by wrong naming by MTR)

Lastly, i may just want to nominate all area subcat of Districts of Hong Kong be deleted as it is wasted of time to define which one belong to which place for non-administrate area that no legally defined boundaries. Or by case by case basis like Tai Po Town , TKO Town has boundaries (as OZP), but neighbourhood within the town has not. Matthew hk (talk) 18:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

For your other revert. HK is not a sovereign country and the parameter country was meant for sovereign country. (I was bombarded by other admin about that and finally stop to argue why not HK is an exception)

While the District parameter. I don't saw HKSKH has Kowloon City District under Diocese of Eastern Kowloon. And the government's Kowloon City District does not act as a district under Diocese . source: Matthew hk (talk) 18:19, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Seems the 香港大地圖 map marked Sung Wong Toi station as To Kwa Wan station . Matthew hk (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

What is that in characters? 124.217.189.34 (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

The black text of the gov map https://www.eac.hk/pdf/distco/2019dc/final/dc2019g.pdf Ma Tau Wai is far near to the church than the Kowloon City black text (the electoral constituency is marked red and using the serial no, so clearly black is not meant for the location of electoral constituency) Matthew hk (talk) 21:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

• Noted, I have updated the infobox accordingly. Kdm852 (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Are there any deaconries or anything similar under the dioceses of the SKH? 124.217.189.34 (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

• As I said before, electoral boundaries are not used (as a rule of thumb) on HK-related articles on WP since they are political, rather than geographic or practical boundaries. As you mentioned, we should use the address as stated by the organisation itself, which does not mention 'district'. Unless an authoritative reference can be found to list the district in the location, I see no reason to include that information at all (as I said, districts are more political boundaries than practical demarkations). I agree that some other articles do include the district, but I think it would make more sense to change those (unless it's relevant, such as the location of a District Councillor's office) rather than amend this article to fit a minority. Kdm852 (talk) 01:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, have to open a RFC due to edit war trigger by yet another person.... Matthew hk (talk) 11:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The church is inside the Ma Tau Wai constituency. Addresses in Hong Kong don't usually include the word "District" in the district. The full address of the church should be 135 Ma Tau Chung Road, Ma Tau Wai, Kowloon City (District), Kowloon, Hong Kong. STSC (talk) 00:37, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

The church did not state themselves as located in Ma Tau Wai http://dek.hkskh.org/holytrinity/contactus.aspx?&lang=2 Matthew hk (talk) 14:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

RfC: address of the church

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Footnote method. The discussion did not yield many solid vote or a strong consensus. How ever it did show that the topic is complex and a footnote seems to be cleanest way of expressing that complexity. Salix alba (talk): 07:37, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

---

Should the address of the church

1. use primary source as citation (Kowloon City, WITHOUT District) OR
2. secondary source (Ma Tau Wai? Note that facebook is not a reliable source: Special:Diff/1000191839) OR
3. avoid to use any sub-district neighbourhood that have no legally defined boundaries (i.e. use Kowloon City District but not any thing below that level) OR
4. footnote method?

Matthew hk (talk) 11:24, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Click to view such footnote. (wording can be tuned later)

Matthew hk (talk) 12:46, 24 January 2021‎ (UTC)

Perhaps it'd better to remove the word usually. And retain Ma Tau Kok. Be honest when you removed the note from the main article to this talk page. Do not omit things you don't like and cherrypick. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 13:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh well, did you understand what is stable version? The footnote was entirely start by me and it is suject to Rfc to make it a consensus or not... Matthew hk (talk) 13:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Then spell out clearly that you have omitted (or in your words, "chopped") other people's edits to your footnote and that you are only submitting your own version here for discussion. Thanks. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 14:03, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• Option 3 with lean to 2 or 4 method. (Full rationale located at #Location and #Discussion). Matthew hk (talk) 12:16, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• What do you mean? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Not a vote: please just read what is WP:Rfc Matthew hk (talk) 13:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
    • What do you mean by "Option 3 with lean to 2 or 4 method."? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose using both Option 1 (Kowloon City) and Option 3 (Kowloon City District) at the same time.

In the History section, I don't mind the address stating either "Kowloon City" or "Kowloon City District" but certainly not both. STSC (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• I'm not too bothered about this address issue whether Ma Tau Wai, Ma Tau Chung, or Kowloon City. Strictly speaking, any area that is south of Boundary Street is not part of the Kowloon City (the town). STSC (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

An interesting fact, Kowloon City Baptist Church building is outside Kowloon City. So, the argument would be use primary source or secondary source or stop argue which by which on fork/community defined neighbourhood and just use legally defined base socio-political admin sub-division Kowloon City District. Matthew hk (talk) 13:30, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Holy Trinity Cathedral and Kowloon City Baptist Church are within the Kowloon City District (administration district) but technically they're not inside the Kowloon City even by the Wiki definition of Kowloon City. Actually, there's no constituency named Kowloon City. I think the formal addresses should be based on the official constituency boundary map. Also, the description "... in Kowloon City, Kowloon City District, Kowloon" sounds very clumsy. I'd suggest now just "Kowloon City District, Kowloon" is sufficient in the introduction. STSC (talk) 01:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

So are facilities such as the Kowloon City Government Offices, the Kowloon City Police Station, the Kowloon City Ferry Pier. 124.217.189.34 (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

We'd better look at maps which show the location of the original sites of the villages, hamlets, settlements or topographic features which gave these present-day areas or neighbourhoods their names. The location of the existing cathedral lies clearly within Ma Tau Chung. Ma Tau Wai is further inland to its northwest and by extension to its west and southwest. Ma Tau Kok is to its southeast. What they refer to in their address is only marginally relevant to a Wikipedia entry. 124.217.189.34 (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually historical boundaries are not that relevant . In Qing era Kowloon Tong is a pond and a village near to the modern day Police Club. If people really want to state the address according to community / resident defined neighbourhood, then they should use modern definition. But such definition does not exist as law and thus often disputed. Lastly, Ma Tau Wai Estate , the public housing estate, is next to the church. Matthew hk (talk) 14:48, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

On your very last point: They aren't right next to each other – Ma Tau Chung Fire Station, the FPA (which give their address as Ma Tau Chung) and some other buildings stand in between. (Brush up your language if you got an English-speaking or bilingual background, e.g., from such a country. What you write isn't easy to read.) 219.76.24.202 (talk) 12:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

And the MTCGPS, too, not quite far away? 124.217.189.34 (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Who's that another person? Can it be changed to <ref group=footnote> </ref>? 124.217.189.34 (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Done, for the second question. 219.76.24.202 (talk) 10:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

finally have time to check the road. Address contains "Ma Tau Chung Road", should not be an evidence for located in "Ma Tau Chung". Just like Tai Po Road, Castle Peak Road, Tai Wo Road have large portions that outside Tai Po, Castle Peak (Tuen Mun Town and the peak proper) and Tai Wo boundaries. If someone has not very old HK atlas (like at least post WWII) to prove the church was marked as within Ma Tau Chung , then it would be a citation but i did not saw any such citation yet. Also thing republished in facebook should not treated as reliable. Lastly, Chung means stream and quite many land area are named after stream such as Tung Chung , Ho Chung. But the stream is not existed in the modern day, so people also need to prove Ma Tau Chung as name of a land area, is not obsolete. (Just like East Point is somewhat obsolete). Matthew hk (talk) 13:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

And this book only stated it is next to a hill after 1930s relocation (Victoria hill [of Kowloon] due to lost in translation?). I don't have full book but only google preview. But it seems the church is relocated and was inside Kowloon City proper, but unclear the author want to state the hill is within Kowloon City or not. So, it seems secondary source also not confirm it is Kowloon City proper, or (Greater) Kowloon City or Ma Tau Chung or Ma Tau Wai. Matthew hk (talk) 13:47, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• Offtopic. Above two ip users, i would recommended to create an account instead of expose your ip address and forever recorded in the wikipedia. I know some "super" admin has rights to check the recent ip of a registered user, but if i was you, i am more concern on exposing my ip to the public instead of just the admin. Also, we can track and communicate with registered user more effectively (and even more if you leave your registered account name in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hong Kong). IP user are often accused of canvassing , sock and meatsock. So that if you have a registered account, and have a lot of useful edit history, you can avoid the mistake made in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinazi (2nd nomination), which is a clear cut example of lihkg offsite canvassing and then the close made a bad reputation in wikipedia among HKer. Alternatively, you can just subscribe Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Hong Kong without a registered account. Matthew hk (talk) 15:33, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

• Regarding Matthew hk's recent edits and remarks in the edit summaries[1][2]: While it'd be better for editors to be bi- or multilingual, the content of each entry should cater for readers who may be monolingual in English. Meanwhile, please include the page no(s) of the pages concerned. Indicate appropriately if in case that map book is published bilingually rather monolingually. If there's a 2019 or 2020 version, use the newer version. And if in case there are other map books which got similar information, e.g., the one published by UP (Universal Publications, Ltd.), a better known publisher of these products, list them too. 219.76.24.202 (talk) 11:03, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't know LandsD's atlas still publish or not, but that one is bilingual. Oher government map (such as for context read above section) clearly only marks Ma Tau Wai , Ma Tau Kok as place names in black font, while the electoral constituency in red (Also read above section on the limitation on rely on constituency) . Matthew hk (talk) 13:25, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, since 99% population are Chinese and only a few are native English speaker, i don't think there is many publisher to publish bilingual edition. And most of the time name can be not matching between Chinese (Cantonese) and English. E.g. Inner Port Shelter = Sai Kung Hoi, Port Shelter = Ngau Mei Hoi. Lastly, wikipedia does not have a policy to use English citation only (Wikipedia:Verifiability). Matthew hk (talk) 13:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Now this is getting funny. I don't know where you could have got the impression that this country is 99-per-cent Chinese. When I last read that figure stood at 92% in the most recent bycensus. In my experience even among many of those who identified themselves as "Chinese" by ethnicity in (by)censuses conducted by the authorities English may in fact be their most frequently used language especially when anything gotta be written or read in black and white. But of course there are remarkable regional differences across the four hundred or so square miles. 124.217.189.34 (talk) 16:29, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

It is 92% if including domestic helper and expat..... Matthew hk (talk) 10:11, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Also, if you want to prove your version of neighbourhood, bring up a real citation...... Matthew hk (talk) 10:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, yet another citation. The Hong Kong (香港年鑑) series by the HK Government. It seems the church use "Kowloon City" as address at least since 1980s.....

While this source by 蕭國健 state the SKH converted a Chinese temple (三聖廟) inside the Kowloon City proper to a church. I guess it may be the reason they still use Kowloon City inside their address after relocation. (But since it is my OR can't put the reasoning to the wiki article) But based on sources, it still another prove that citations (primary v secondary) are contradicts each other to use Kowloon City or Ma Tau Wai or Ma Tau Chung. (Offtopic, if Kowloon City Baptist Church really relocate to Kowloon East in Kwun Tong or somewhere outside Kowloon City District, hope they are sane enough to not put Kowloon City in the address ). Matthew hk (talk) 11:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

"... state the SKH converted a Chinese temple (三聖廟)..." {{translate-inline}} 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC) 13:42, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, ip are blocked is one thing. I am really not sure why i am the only one in this thread to keep finding citation and others just don't wonna support their own view with a citation. Ok, here is the e-HongKongGuide 2020 by the government In this version, the church is located in the map of the book that named after Kowloon City and Hung Hom only..... while the red text on that map has Ma Tau Wai, Ma Tau Kok, Kai Tak, Kowloon City, Hung Hom etc as neighbourhoods but may be it is WP:OR to me to tell it is Kowloon City or Ma Tau Wai.

While for Street Index (52nd edition), the index confirmed the Braobury Centre of the church is located in Ma Tau Chung Road but seems the index did not group the street with neighbourhood. Matthew hk (talk) 17:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, dig out news articles that refers the church as located in Kowloon City (and predate the true foundation of Kowloon City District in 1980s.) but other articles such as this one only refers as Ma Tau Chung Road, Kowloon. Matthew hk (talk) 14:38, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

And this article in the magazine by "CCM Christian Mission Limited", indicated that the church started in Ma Tau Chung as "family church", and then planned to build a church at the foot of Sacred Hill (which the hill was demolished. NOT the site of the stone of Sung Wong Toi in present day) and then relocated to the top of Victoria hill (my own translation = 維多利亞山), north of Boundary Street and inside Kowloon City in 1904. And then due to the expansion of Kai Tak Airport so that the church relocated again. Despite the article did not state the neighbourhood of the church at present day. As well as mis-stated Ma Tau Wai Estate is located in To Kwa Wan, it seems it proves the church at least, was inside Kowloon City proper (next to Kowloon Walled City, the city established by Qing or even earlier, that turned into a slam post Convention ) before 1930s relocation . Matthew hk (talk) 15:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Yet another map from an article by 劉健宇. Source of the Original map is not known. But well indicated that Kowloon City was meant to be the area north of Boundary Street.

And this journal article is even more serious to figure out the location of another historical landmark "上帝古廟", and attach a lot of maps. Despite due to land reclamation and demolition of Sacred Hill, made it hard to read the map, but you can cross-reference the street, to current topography. The journal articles stated Ma Tau Chung Road was known as Kowloon City Road (page 8; NOT equal to the current road of the same name) and the southern part of Kowloon City Road, is now known as Ma Tau Wai Road. While the "present" Sung Wong Toi Garden, just next to Holy Trinity Cathedral, was reserved for the relocation of "上帝古廟" but such plan was cancelled due to WWII. Such reserved land for "上帝古廟" and now Sung Wong Toi Garden was located at the foot of Sacred Hill according to the journal article , but without stating the actual name of the area.

Note that Ma Tau Chung means "Port-stream", Ma Tau Wai means "Walled Village of the Port", Ma Tau Kok means "port-corner" so that on old map, it is more clearly 3 locations (plus demolished Sacred Hill are 4 different locations). And it seems Ma Tau Wai the indigenous village was located in modern day Lomond Road (露明道), further inland and is the location of present day St. Teresa's Hospital and it did far away from the location of Ma Tau Wai / Ma Tau Wai Estate marked in modern map. And at the same time indicated that Ma Tau Chung the land area that named after the stream is at the south, NOT East of Ma Tau Wai (page 5), thus not possible to be the location of modern day Holy Trinity Cathedral. There is another map of "Ma Tau Chung" in the journal article but it seems it was for the location of the stream (page 6). I can't really tell the former Kowloon City Road was realigned or not (or does it moved further inland and moved towards the coast?). If the alignment of the road was exactly the same as present day, the area of modern day Holy Trinity Cathedral / Sung Wong Toi Garden has not been marked for any name in the old map, but it did at the foot of Sacred Hill, just the map did not have the marking for Victoria hill or any contour line .

While at another paragraph (page 16), stated that the area between modern day Tam Kung Road and Ma Tau Chung Road, was 二王殿村 (Two King Temple village) of Ma Tau Chung, but the modern Holy Trinity Cathedral still located at area north of Tam Kung Road.

To sum up, new dig out sources still contradicted and the journal article seems confirm neither Ma Tau Chung, Ma Tau Wai, Kowloon City as the historical place names that Holy Trinity Cathedral is currently located. Matthew hk (talk) 23:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

(Would you organise your thoughts and tidy your findings and proofread what you wrote before hitting the send button?) 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

So what was the name of the area? Kau Pui Shek, perhaps? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm still reading through the rest of this discussion but concerning the Facebook post, it appears that the post is a picture of some map or chart. If the source of that image can be determined, it could be used a reliable source for the article.--Prisencolin (talk) 00:35, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Before closing the Rfc, add on more map source. Map by Ling Kee has placed Holy Trinity Cathedral in the page Ma Tau Wai, Kowloon . But that page (at the edge) also contain area that widely consider part of Kowloon City proper, e.g. 南角道 ( Nam Kok Road , lit. south corner road). So that it is a bit WP:OR to determinate the neighbourhood of the church from map as map never indicated a clear neighbourhood boundary (also it does not exist legally but defined by the church itself and community and/or documented by newspaper) Matthew hk (talk) 02:43, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• For any Rfc closer, read also Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1058#Please instruct how to deal with ip hopping, meat and suspected offsite canvassing from a lot of ip ranges from HK and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/14.0.180.170 and made a due weight on the opinion by the ips, which most of them are blocked for 1 month to once blocked for more than 24 hrs due to issues related to this talk page as well as others . Matthew hk (talk) 02:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit war

@MB:, @124.217.189.34: Please wait for the Rfc for using Kowloon City or else. Not edit war. If edit war, use page protection or edit war notice board.

For country parameter, Hong Kong is not a sovereign countries (Nor commonly refer as a country in media, unlike England), it is a consensus in wikipedia that |country= para should not for Hong Kong. If you don't like it, please start a WP:VP. Either you fill China or leave it blank is fine. Wikipedia is not a place to bluffing for independence . Matthew hk (talk) 05:31, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

For the ip, i mean this Special:Diff/1001335139 and Special:Diff/1001639955 (revert) and Special:Diff/1001648623 (another revert) and Special:Diff/1001648623 (yet another revert). Matthew hk (talk) 05:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

The fact regarding Kowloon City versus Ma Tau Chung is rather clear in the RfC discussion above but there's no reason why we can't wait. As for your second paragraph and your edit summary here: No there's certainly no such consensus, on Wikipedia or elsewhere. Quite the opposite the general rule is that "countries" is broader than just the sovereign nations – unless among those who aren't English speakers. 124.217.189.34 (talk) 16:18, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

If you are really new to wikipedia. Please read WP:consensus and WP:3RR. There is an Rfc ongoing so that please wait for the outcome before make any change from the stable version (and yeah , i should move the footnote code to sandbox or somewhere BTW). Matthew hk (talk) 19:49, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Concur on the Ma Tau Chung/Kowloon City RfC. Yes there's no reason why we shouldn't wait. 124.217.189.34 (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Matthew hk, on your point of not putting Hong Kong in the county parameter - please realize that doing so does not make it a county. That is just a internal mechanism of the infobox. Some infoboxes have separate parameters for street, city, state/province, country while others just use one parameter (usually location). The displayed output in the infobox does not label anything as the country either way. In the current version of this article, Hong Kong is missing from the infobox where it does belong. It should be put back into the infobox either in the country parameter or as part of the location parameter.

The other thing I was trying to do here was heed WP:SEAOFBLUE and MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE which says infoboxes are to summarize key facts so the reader can see important facts "at a glance". The location should not be overly detailed and get into neighborhoods or districts. It should just say Kowloon City, Hong Kong or something else similar. The same in the lead that currently has four blue links together which should be reduced to one. A reader of this article is here to read about the church, not the geographical or political subdivisions of the city. If they really wanted to know more about the location, they can click on the link and go to the article on Kowloon City or whatever final choice is to learn that. MB 04:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

@MB: Well, the Hong Kong (e.g. library of Hong Kong or a lot of foo of Hong Kong cats) cats were remove from country level container cat again and again so that please ask them (admin, leader of wiki project that sort cat) that stop to do that then. And the versions back in 2012 of this article already use China as the value of |country=..... [3] I don't mind drive the Rfc guy insane to open another rfc for using China or Hong Kong or Rfc at Template talk:Infobox church, Template talk:Infobox building (or WP:VP) to really asking do country equal to sovereign country or entity that media often referred as one (e.g. England) Matthew hk (talk) 10:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

All because of STSC's initiative and insistence, as far as this article is concerned? As for the categorisation scheme what's needed is to cast the 50¢ members out tbh. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, as a 200,000 edit user in wikipedia and quite a lot of them for HK, are your accuse me a member of CCP and all admin are CCP? (for other editor, 50¢ = 五毛, which is a sarcasm of CCP-tied web editor and commenter's revenue per edit) Ok, i need to take time to dig out the wall of text by the admin (or the wikiproject big editor can't remember the name) on why Hong Kong should not be an exception.... Matthew hk (talk) 14:02, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

(edit: ok i guess my memory is wrong then Special:Diff/876122181. This user is not an admin.) Matthew hk (talk) 14:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

No, if in case you might have unfortunately misread; I'd just wonder if there'd be any sensible persons who'd think England and perhaps Gibraltar, Greenland, the Faroe Islands, Aruba or the BVI should be exceptions but Hong Kong shouldn't. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 14:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

For example this thread from sister project? Wikidata:Project chat/Archive/2018/09#Puerto Rican nationality. Matthew hk (talk) 14:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Apparently no? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Concur, MB. I have taken out that reference to the neighbourhood and the bit about their street address and moved them to the history section.[4] Hope this helps.

As for the field for country, I would incline to concur too but it would be difficult to add it back without alerting sysops for 3RR. Meanwhile I found a windy footnote in the edit history. While I don't think that's desirable or necessary, it may be the only workable solution to please some stubborn editors. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Actually you are not violating WP:3RR (strict 3RR violation is the same user 3RR in 24 hours, but revert within a week is still an edit war that should went to Wikipedia:Edit warring resolve process) , it is now likely a block evasion or meat sock.... Matthew hk (talk) 16:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

For the argument of is Hong Kong is a country or not. Read country wiki article. Also, CIA World Fact book clearly stated it is a dependency. [5] Matthew hk (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Please refer to the drop down menu in the World Fact Book page you cited. 219.73.73.107 (talk) 07:59, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

How would you come up with such a conclusion? Some serious missing links in between? Backtrack your PA unless you got concrete evidence to submit. And meanwhile I have always thought that 3RR is certainly something to be avoided whenever possible no matter whether that's committed by the same user nor whether that happens within 24 hours. Even if no one does it yet it's something to be avoided if possible. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

What about moving all references to any neighbourhoods to footnotes? Leaving only Kowloon in the main text and the infobox, or maybe Kowloon City District, too, with the word district, which is in no way contentious? 219.73.73.107 (talk) 07:50, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Further to my remarks above, I'd propose to feed this article either directly under the Kowloon City District category, or under both Kowloon City and Ma Tau Chung. All references in the main text and the infobox should be moved to the footnote. (Other more up-to-date references, as well as older map sources, should be needed in addition to that one single book. The fact that Ma Tau Chung Fire Station and Ma Tau Chung Government Primary School closely nearby, and the Ma Tau Chung Clinic of the Family Planning Association, already explains which neighbourhood this cathedral would belong.) 219.73.73.107 (talk) 13:02, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, the Rfc is above section. Not this thread. And building name is not an evidence. E.g. Sham Shui Po and Cheung Sha Wan have a lot of building name misplaced with the areas. The Mak Tau Kok Road Government Offices is inland and next to Mak Tau Wai Estate. I am keep asking to cite a map or news article or other secondary source that related to the church address or which area it is serving (I stayed too long in Australia. May be "neighbourhood" seem more accurate noun but in HK (in Chinese) they seldom refer it as one. or may be uses the noun community = 社區? Or Australian noun for this, suburb.). Lastly, if you don't want to be a collateral damage to sock / meatsock investigation, create an account and edit thing your really like so that the edit pattern can be distinguished with other unregistered editor. Matthew hk (talk) 14:01, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

You don't appear to have lived in Australia. Neither do you appear to have lived for any substantial period in Hong Kong, or in Kowloon in particular. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 09:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Don't try to lure me to disclose the geo detail i lived (or currently live). But i can tell you i have lived in Mai Tau Wai at very young age (Which personal experience help you to determine the quality of source you read and determine add it to wiki or not, but personal experience can't be cited directly) . I can't remember the book "九龍城寨史話" by 鲁金 have any mention of 三聖廟 or the Anglican church "Holy Trinity", but i (and other editors) which want to be constructive, please dig out citation.

Also remember other editors from other part of the world can edit any article. You have source or not to verify the your content is more important. (Or don't edit things that you don't really know) Wikipedia is not a playground or POV pushing however. So where is your source for rebutting ? No? Matthew hk (talk) 10:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Both Australia and Hong Kong are English-speaking jurisdictions aren't they? What is the POV which I pushed? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit semi protected

Three parts:

• In "... however, list the church as located in the Ma Tau Wai area", reinsert "-Ma Tau Kok" after "Ma Tau Wai" and the plural form "s" after "area", since the names of the two areas appear on the same page;
• In "Kowloon City District is the district where Kowloon City, Ma Tau Chung and Ma Tau Wai are located, among other areas", reinsert ", Ma Tau Kok" after "Ma Tau Chung", consequential to the proposed edit above; and
• Reinstate the tag <nowiki>{{<nowiki>outdated-inline|date=January 2021|reason=Please refer to the 2019 or 2020 version.}}, for it doesn't make sense to submit something as new evidence in January 2021 a book published in late 2017, while newer versions are available.

Thank you. 223.197.192.15 (talk) 10:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Moved the footnote to talk page as it is a subject of Rfc and not appeared in stable version in 2019/2020. (And it is a big no no to edit someone else talk page comment, as a reminder to any newbie ip editors) Also, If the location "Ma Tau Chung" is not appears in 2018 editions, then "out of date" tag is not relevant. Why not buy the latest edition and read yourself ? I doubt it would suddenly reappear in 2019 / 2020 / 2021 editions of the atlas. It seems the tag more like bad faith assumption . Matthew hk (talk) 12:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

By reinstating the reference to Kowloon City in the main text under the history section without any sort of note you have effectively undone all recent efforts above and in the article's edit history in search of middle-ground, compromised solutions. 1.64.46.31 (talk) 13:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

"[E]dit someone else['s] talk page comment[s]"? Did I? Meanwhile what do you mean by "is not appears"? Could you please clarify and be reminded to proofread for your future edits? 223.197.192.15 (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2021 (UTC)