Talk:Holnicote Estate/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll read through and start the review properly on Friday. Hchc2009 (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@Rodw:, how's it going? I'm conscious of the conversations at Talk:Holnicote Estate#Domesday confusion and User talk:Lobsterthermidor#Holnicote Estate again, which have left the early part of the article disputed and in poor shape. Do you reckon that resolution is likely in the near future? Hchc2009 (talk)

Sorry I've been a bit busy at work (dissertations etc must be marked for exam board deadlines) I will try to look at this again over the weekend.— Rod ^talk 09:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

As an update, I've now attempted to clarify the Domesday situation; I believe I've reached the best solution and anything else would probably delve into OR. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 13:44, 4 June 2015 (UTC).

I've made some final tweaks (pls check that you're content with their accuracy) and it looks good to pass now. Thanks for everyone's hard work on this one! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

• Worth linking less familiar British terms like Edward I, the Crown, seat, tithe roll, Master in Chancery, bridleway etc.

• I've made a start on the specific itemised here - will try to do others as I come across them.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Purists would probably prefer "Domesday Book" vice "the Domesday Book"... ;)

• That is a new omne on me and I would welcome thoughts on this. I have always called it The Domesday Book (or 1086) or similar.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• It's not crucial, but I know it matters to some editors. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:59, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Gone.— Rod ^talk 19:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• What's a virgate?

• A virgate is a unit of land. It was wikilinked on 2nd use - I've changed this to 1st use.— Rod ^talk

• "research by J. L. Vivian" - who is/was...? (e.g. "the Victorian historian, J. Vivian")

• wikilink to John Lambrick Vivian added.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• " lists twelve tenements let," - tenement will mean several different things to some readers; "tenancies"?

• wikilink to Tenement (law) added.— Rod ^talk 16:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "forester or ranger of Exmoor" - I suspect that many readers will be uncertain what this means

• Explained - the king's chief officer of the royal forest.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Acland was a famous staghunter who used his wife's Exmoor estates of Pixton and Holnicote as his hunting seats." - given that the article is about Holnicote, not Pixton, could Holnicote come first?

• Order reversed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "His hospitality to his fellow staghunters was legendary, as had been that of his father." - the second half of this feels redundant, as it was mentioned only two paragraphs up!

• Removed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "which was the largest ever donation received by the National Trust" - "was" or "is"...? (it is unclear if the past tense implies a bigger donation after that)

• I will need to check but I believe it is still the largest in area (value in £ may be a different issue).— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• The best I can find on this is from this site which says "The National Trust's largest single rural estate is Holnicote Estate on Exmoor". We could just remove the claim or find another form of words if no-one else can find antyhing saying whether a lareger donation has since been received.— Rod ^talk 21:14, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• "The estate is renowned for its picturesque and unspoiled landscapes and for its historic role, together with the Acland family's other Exmoor estate of Pixton, as a spiritual home of West Country staghunting in the 18th century." - is it really "renowned" (i.e. "known or talked about by many people; famous") for its role as the spiritual home of staghunting in the 18th century? I know there is a citation, but I can't imagine very many people talk about 18th century staghunting at all, let alone its spiritual home in this estate. Is there a better term?

• I have revised to "a home of West Country staghunting in the 18th century. Despite the fact that some of us talk about nothing else.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• It probably can be called "the" home, since as far as I am aware there was only one staghunt in the Westcountry, (Devon & Cornwall) which developed from the Royal Staghounds kept by the ranger of Exmoor for the kings, which was taken over by Edward Dyke, but perhaps this needs more sourcing.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))

• "In 1941 another fire seriously damaged the building. It was being used as a hotel since the granting of a licence to sell alcohol in 1936." - I couldn't work out why the granting of an alcohol license was important here (NB: it may be explained in the citation) - if it isn't, could it be "In 1936 the lodge became a hotel, but was badly damaged by fire in 1941."?

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps: "In 1936 the lodge became a hotel, in which year it received a licence to sell alcohol", probably a key clue as to its new use, thus an important bit of info.

• "and the British Iron Age Bury Castle" - unclear why this is "British Iron Age" (and Iron Age is linked above)

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "In the 16th century, Selworthy Beacon was (as its name implies) " - I didn't think the bit in brackets was needed here

• Removed.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Many of the other cottages, whose walls are painted with limewash that has been tinted creamy yellow with ochre, some of which are now rented out, are still thatched and are listed buildings." - the noun and the verbs here are at opposite ends of the sentence, which made it a bit clunky!

• Reordered sentence - can you take another look - I'm still not sure the grammar works here.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Other traditional sights in the village include thatched cottages, a forge and an old-fashioned red telephone box. " - is there a better way of saying "traditional sights"...? it felt a big "touristy" to me...

• Changed to "features of..."

• "Horner is on the eastern bank of Horner Water on which there is a restored, but non-working, watermill and which is crossed by a packhorse bridge, and on the route of the Coleridge Way. There are two medieval packhorse bridges. One is known as Hacketty Way Bridge." - the number of bridges here is unclear (is the first bridge one of the two bridges? If so, is it Hacketty Way Bridge, or the other bridge?)

• Revised.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Worth deconflicting the "scheduled" and "ancient" monuments (I think the ancient monument is also a scheduled monument)

• I'm sure we have debated these terms before not all Ancient monuments are Scheduled monuments (although most are) but these two articles could potentially be merged at some point in the future.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

• The articles is about the Holnicote Estate, but the infobox is titled "Holnicote House"; I'm presuming that the latter is a mistake. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Changed.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• There are lots of quotes in italics; normally the MOS asks for quotes to be simply in speechmarks.

• Hope I've caught all of these.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Worth running the duplicate link tool over it (North Devon Staghounds, Pixton etc. are coming up)

• Done.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Some of the quotes need in-line attribution; e.g. "Although it is "very probable" that..." - it's cited, but the text doesn't give the reader any real indication of who said this (ditto the later quotes).

• The specific one you mention says "Although the local historian and lawyer Charles Chadwyck-Healey described it is "very probable" ..." so I think it is clear who said this. I will look for others.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Yep - it was edited after I made the comment! :) Hchc2009 (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Can I check that "Sweetworthy on the lower slopes is the site of two Iron Age hill forts or enclosures and a deserted medieval settlement." needs all five citations? (NB: if it does, no problem, but it seems quite a few for the sentence)

• The Exmoor Historic Environment Record (EHER) covers the hills forts and medieval settlement in 2 different records and Historic England uses 3 separate citations sheets for the same things, so I would keep them.

• Some copyright violation around "The hill is blanketed in heather..." - have a look at the cited source and you'll see what I mean...

• I think they took it from a previous version of this article but I have reworded.— Rod ^talk 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Cheers. If it's a copy from here, then it would need independent referencing as well! The .pdf linked after it is 193 pages long, btw, and the reference really needs a page number... Hchc2009 (talk) 18:51, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Reference replaced.— Rod ^talk 19:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

• There are several different citation styles in the article; while not a GA requirement, it would be great if they were combined into a consistent version.
• Worth checking the formatting (e.g. fns 23 has some raw wiki formatting showing, 48 and 50 have an odd "pp. 51–." formatting, as if they're missing the second page number.)
• The article doesn't seem to be using Barrister or Pevsner.

• I have attempted to standardise the reference style and removed Barrister and Pevsner from the Bibliography. I did check all the reference formatting a few days ago but various styles were introduced in recent edits - hopefully resolved.— Rod ^talk 19:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

• "It includes Dunkery and Selworthy Beacons..." - the two citations for this sentence don't seem to support the claims made about what is in the estate.

• Another ref added.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• "The estate also plays host to a point to point course on which many Exmoor hunts hold their meetings throughout the spring" - this isn't supported by the citation

• Another ref added.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Respected and beloved by all the countryside," - the source for this is a mid-19th century member of the gentry and keen hunter; is it actually a reliable secondary source for this sort of claim about the views of the local workers etc., or should we be making it clearer that this was one person's opinion?

• Clarified that this is the opinion of Charle Palk Collyns.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• "One of Allerford's main attractions is the much-photographed packhorse bridge." - doesn't seem to be cited

• Added two refs saying it is "much-photographed".— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Two identical versions exist, both owned by the National Trust in Devon, one at Saltram House, the other at Killerton House." - not sure why this is actually relevant, but it needs a citation if its being used.

• Suggested sources: [1] and [2]. Important paintings, creates much confusion amongst observant visitors to both these NT properties.

• Thanks for the pointer, I have now referenced the two different paintings.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• neither citation says that they are identical and if you look at the trees in the background, they are different... Hchc2009 (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I have removed the word identical.— Rod ^talk 20:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I still think it would be more useful to tell the reader where it actually does come from though - at the moment we don't tell the reader that this painting is from Killerton. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• It does say "Two versions exist, both owned by the National Trust in Devon, one at Saltram House, the other at Killerton House." but I don't see anything about where it was painted.— Rod ^talk 08:46, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• If you click on the image, the original webpage it was taken from lists the painting as being from Killerton House. The other one is rather different in colour, and has different trees etc. in the background. Hchc2009 (talk) 09:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Caption revised.— Rod ^talk 10:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

(c) it contains no original research.

• None found, but note some issues with the referencing above. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

• Yes. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

• "Pixton was the larger establishment, richly equipped with silver-plate and linen, including 73 tablecloths..." Pixton is a totally different estate; is it relevant to Holnicote to describe the tablecloths at Pixton?
• " A letter dated 1759 written on behalf of Courtenay Walrond of Bradfield House describes the Acland hospitality..." Again, seems to be about Pixton, not Holnicote.

• Both gone.— Rod ^talk 17:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Shame, it demonstrates the scale of his hospitality in general, which was clearly remarkable, and needs to be mentioned. The two estates were used in tandem, depending on where the deer was found and killed, the day's hunt often covering great distances. Important to convey the point.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

• The quote about life in Pixton is still there ("This noble chase being ended..."), which still feels redundant. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Gone.— Rod ^talk 08:46, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• "The National Trust caused much local and national controversy when it banned staghunting on the estate in the early 21st century." - the citations don't back this wording up. They suggest that there was controversy (at least nationally, I'm not sure they stress the local) when staghunting was banned, but not that the Trust caused it (which is POV language unless firmly backed by citations). Hchc2009 (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Accurate: the NT jumped the gun and banned staghunting well before the Govt. ban. Controversial as Sir Richard Acland had requested, in a non-legally binding way, that stag hunting should continue. Especially as the traditional opening meet in August was held at Cloutsham on the estate and was for decades an annual day out for hundreds of townsfolk of Porlock and Minehead with their picnics.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))

• I've added another ref (from the Independent) which supports the local & Acland angle.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• It still needs a citation for the "caused". Hchc2009 (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• Reworded.— Rod ^talk 20:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

• A lot of recent changes in the run-up to the GA, but no edit warring etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

• File:HolnicoteDomesdayBook.png needs a copyright tag to cover the photographic rights (possibly a PD-Art?) Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Why not PD-100?, it's a flat object like a drawing.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))

• I'm never sure on these. It currently has {{PD-old-100}} would changing to PD-Art have any advantages?— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• As noted, the photograph needs a suitable tag. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• So are you saying the {{PD-old-100}} is unsuitable?— Rod ^talk 20:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• I think you need something like PD-art-100. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

• Is "A similar collection of stag heads amassed by his father the 7th Baronet, and much beloved by the latter, was destroyed during a fire at Holnicote in 1779." necessary in the stag caption? It makes a for a long caption.

• Yes, article emphasises the father valued his stag heads more than the house itself, when it burned down. The stag heads are very significant, in effect replacements for that earlier more famous collection, worthy of a couple of lines in the caption.(Lobsterthermidor (talk) 22:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC))

• I still don't think this complies with the MOS on captions. 08:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• "Memorial tablet to Charles Staynings (died 1700) in All Saints Church, Selworthy." - the full stop isn't needed as it isn't a full sentence. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Full stop removed.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments (and edits). I don't think I'm going to be able to finish them tonight and have to work all day tomorrow , but I will return to the comments which I haven't yet addressed within the next couple of days.— Rod ^talk 19:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I think most comments have been tackled. I'm aware I need to come back to "which was the largest ever donation received by the National Trust" (I'm still trying to find a source to resolve that, but if there are other outstanding issues could you remind me as I'm getting lost on the detail.— Rod ^talk 20:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)