Talk:High church Lutheranism

References

What is this? There is a whole page about this and where are any references? I'm a liberal Lutheran and I've interacted with conservative Lutherans and have friends that are conservative Lutherans and not a single person has ever used "high church" or "low church" in this way.

How was this article accepted? I saw plenty of links, but not true reference links to such claims.

KagomeShuko 01:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a link to said usage. [1] KagomeShuko 01:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't find this use ANYWHERE online, either. This seems to be opinion only. Here's another link that is the same as the last [2] KagomeShuko 01:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The sites you've provided links to are both Wikipedia clone sites. Wikipedia's content is free; many other websites provide copies of the Encyclopedia online. That's why the text is the same as this article. A simple Google search for "high church lutheran" (with the quotes) does find some limited usage of this term in published works, however. It's clear that there are different streams of religious practice within Lutheranism, and indeed that these variations go back a long way in our history. I think it's a relatively new thing to apply the Anglican terms "high" and "low" church to these variations, but it's not wrong to do so. The article may need to provide better context on this point: who uses this term, and where.--Srleffler 04:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article does need a "who uses this term and where" as it is definitely not in common usage - and has gotten at least one person in some hot water who seems to use wikipedia as an end-all be-all to his research. Although, when I read those sites, they certainly weren't clones of this page, but the liturgy usage. Anyway, yeah, this article needs that the stated information because it's certainly rare usage of such a term. KagomeShuko 04:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I added a line or two to clarify the point that got NL into hot water. I can assert with personal knowledge that many ELCA Lutherans are indeed both "high church" and "liberal".--Srleffler 06:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry that I have not yet been able to provide more references. My mother tongue is Finnish, so those references I could give right now probably would not help much (however I can tell already, that one source about using bells in consecration can be found at least the original Swedish version of Brilioth's Eucharistic Faith and Practice, Catholic and Evangelical). Please note that high church Lutheranism is originally European, and this article should not concentrate only to American Lutheranism - especiallly not just from someone's personal experience. European high church movements are often isolated and they have very strong identity. I have provided all these links also to be sources to prove what high church Lutheranism is about. (Terot 13:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC))

High Church

The term, "high church" is of Anglican origin, and refers to Anglicans / Episcopalians whose theology worship, and spirituality is focused on the Roman Catholic Church rather than on Protestantism. There are indeed high church Lutherans, but the equivalent term in Lutheranism is "Evangelical Catholic." The previous poster noted correctly that their origins are European, specifically Scandanavian, though their roots can be traced back to the Gneiso-Lutherans who opposed Melanchthon and the Formula of Concord.

In answer to KagomeShuko, among Lutherans the preferred term for a "high church" Lutheran is "Evangelical Catholic;" and the preferred term for a "low church" Lutheran is "Pietist" or "Confessing Evangelical." If you use these terms, any Lutheran will know what you are talking about.

The late Dr. Sasse of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod's Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, once wrote that whenever he heard the term, "high church," he found that those identifying with it were influenced by the Anglican Oxford Movement (a movement in the Church of England originally, and later throughout the Anglican Communion, to recover Anglicanism's Catholic faith, spirituality, and heritage.) Dr. Sasse referred to "high church," Evangelical Lutherans as "Romanizing Lutherans" and generally considered those involved in such movements to be a pernicious influence within Lutheranism: at best not Confessional Lutherans and at worst to be little more than religious "double agents."

You will find high church / Evangelical Catholic Lutherans in the LCMS as well as the ELCA. There are also a number of small Lutheran Churches which are so strongly Evangelical Catholic that they have for all intents and purposes already become Roman Catholic (of Lutheran heritage, but de-facto Roman Catholics) even though they are not yet under Papal Authority (though they are working actively for and making progress toward some form of visible, corporate reunion with the Catholic Church.) As such, they are vigorously opposed by Protestant-oriented Pietistic Lutherans.

Incidentally, not all "high church," Evangelical Catholic Lutherans are theologically, biblically, and socially liberal. Though there seem to be a lot more liberal "high church" Evangelical Catholic Lutherans than "low church" ones, there are in fact many "high church" Evangelical Catholics among biblically, theologically, and socially conservative Lutherans and Lutheran Churches.

As far as the difficulty in finding information about "high church," Evangelical Catholic Lutherans is concerned, if you do an internet search using the words, "Evangelical Catholic" + "Lutheran", you will find a lot on the web about this very Roman Catholic-oriented corner of the larger world-wide Evangelical Lutheran Church. - Gladfelteri 21:46 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Here are two links to the use of the term "high church" in North American Lutheranism (both opposing it) from the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod: * Sasse, Hermann: “A Brotherly Warning Against the ‘High Church’ Danger,” translated by M.C. Harrison in The Lonely Way: Selected Letters and Essays (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2002), pgs. 304-305. The second reference is by LC-MS Pastor, Editor, and Publishing Executive Paul T. McCain: http://cyberbrethren.com/2006/11/08/a-warning-against-the-high-church-danger ' A Warning Against the High Church Danger.' ' - Gladfelteri 07:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Need a definition?

I really have to strongly disagree with the whole approach of this article. It posits the term "High Church" entirely on two issues: 1. Relationship to Roman Catholicism (sometimes referred to as the "home to Rome" movement) 2. Worship style.

High church Lutheranism is much more complex than this. Some elements within the ELCA are certainly high church in practice and definition of the Church, but in many regards the hierarchical, clergy-focused approach of the LC-MS is FAR more high church.

Ctobola 21:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that, although I don't know North American Lutheranism as well. I am Finnish and I have started this article mostly from European point of wiew, which may cause some confusion. Sadly, most sources are not in English either. I think that part of the new definition You wrote, would be better in chapter Theology and Spirituality, or in High Church Movements. I intended that the chapter in article Evangelical Catholic would be more about theology and tradition and this article about high church movements, which have born mostly due to Liturgical movement. You are right that there is still lot to improve. (Terot 16:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC))

Ctobola, I respectfully disagree with the statement about the LC-MS. First, with respect to the comment that the approach of the LC-MS is far more high church than the ELCA, that is simply not true. I am former LC-MS, now serving as the Metropolitan Archbishop (Primate) of an Evangelical Catholic (high church) "microsynod." the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. In my experience, while the first comment may be true for a very small number of LC-MS congregations and clergy, the LC-MS is far more Protestant in its orientation and much more congregationalist in polity and worship than the ELCA (with the exception of its Norwegian heritage Haugean Pietists in the Northern Plains States and Minnesota.) Evangelical Catholic (high church) clergy in the LC-MS also keep a very low profile as they tend to become marginalized. In addition, there is a deep vein of anti-Roman Catholicism in the LC-MS that should not be under-estimated.

Instead of the LC-MS, I would suggest that by far the most "Catholic," the most "Romanized" High Church Lutherans will be found in the small number of Evangelical Catholic microsynods [3] which have recovered the historic Apostolic Succession (from the Old Catholics / Independent Catholics.)

As far as the first sentence in this section is concerned, in my very humble opinion, the concept that Rome really is "Home," and the use of (Roman) Catholic worship styles and theology really does lie "buried" at the center of the heart of Evangelical Catholic / "High Church Lutheranism." Because of that, Evangelical Catholic / "High Church Lutheranism" may turn out to be a transitional phenomenon (especially in North America,) as its participants tend to gradually - or not so gradually - "swim the Tiber" and become Roman Catholics. - Gladfelteri 15:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Notable persons

Would the editors who put all these names in the "notable persons" section please add a few words after each person's name, summarizing what that person's contribution was? Failing the addition of this information, I propose deleting the names without such an entry, or perhaps the whole section. A list of names of "notable" contributors to high church Lutheranism is pretty worthless without at least some indication of what they did, especially since many of the names are red links. See also Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

The list of names probably should be pruned regardless, but that can wait on more info about what these individuals' roles were.--Srleffler 23:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Personal ordinariate

Apart from the Traditional Anglican Communion, the article should really consider verifying whether High Church Lutheran groups such as the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church have ever sought a similar canonical structure to the proposed personal ordinariates. ADM (talk) 18:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I came to this article because of a comment at Rorate Caeli's blog of traditional minded Catholics. There someone copies "verbatim" a purported -search comment at 22:31 the 27th from Anonymous" interchange with an authority of this Community, claiming that they're already working towards a similar solution. Might be worth following. --Wllacer (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The comment on Rorate Caeli's blog to which you refer is accurate. On May 15, 2009, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church officially filed a formal petition to enter the Roman Catholic Church "as a unified body" in whichever form the Pope and the Curia decides is the most appropriate. The ALCC's petition was filed with the Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and is now before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. --Gladfelteri (talk) 20:13, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

On February 21, 2011, it became public that Catholic authorities in Rome have invited the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church to join the Catholic Church through the provisions of Anglicanorum Coetibus and that the ALCC has officially and unconditionally accepted that invitation. Gladfelteri (talk) 08:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

References

Changes in information about Denmark

the High Church movement in lutheran Denmark nowadays is Fællesskabet Kirkelig Fornyelse. Skt. Ansgar fællesskabet does not exist any more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edlef (talk • contribs) 15:06, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sweden: What is up and what is down?

I don't quite know how to estimate the section on Sweden. The real high-church movement in Church of Sweden is really marginalized and pretty despised for its reactionary tendencies. On the other hand Church of Sweden retained much of the catholic rite from the beginning. The section seems to indicate that the catholic rite gave rise and strength to the high-church in Sweden, of which I'm completely unaware, and my impression is that it instead gave rise and strength to an extremely broad-church approach with strong ecumenical tendencies, in the end resulting in the Porvoo Communion. I believe Church of Sweden evolved as follows:

• Roman Catholicism dominated,
• Under the Vasa kings the reformation wobbled forth and back to finally in 1593 settle on a Lutheranism with Catholic rite,
• Lutheran orthodoxy and Lutheran scholasticism ruled from 1580 to 1730,
• then Pietism gained influence and "lowered" the theology creating trouble with schisms, from which came a reaction (maybe rationalist) finally making
• c:a 1800 tendencies of liberal christianity (the basis for the broad-church) versus a "traditionalism" the two main streams of the Church of Sweden, of which Liberal Christianity gained the strongest prevailing hold, today constituting a strong majority,

I think the high-church adherents emerged from this unnamed "traditionalism", but that the major part of the traditionalism is some kind of introvert Lutheranism. They call themself de frimodiga ("the frank ones"), maybe describing some 10-40% of the members. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 19:34, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

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External links spam

This article has way too many WP:ELNO. They've been removed at least once, and then restored by Terot saying "As beginner of this article I have added back the most important, updated links. Before possible deletion, importance should be discussed on talk page". I'll remove then once again if there is no opposition. Some links could be kept on a case by case basis. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

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