Talk:Henry Eyring (Mormon pioneer)

Requested move 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a new RM with "Henry Eyring (1835-1902)" as the proposed title. Jenks24 (talk) 11:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

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Henry Eyring (Mormon convert) → Henry Eyring (Mormon) – While I admit there is no steadfast rule, I find the use of (Mormon convert) as a parenthetical unusual. The norm has always been to use ether the leadership position (if necessary), such as Joseph Fielding Smith (presiding patriarch) or (Mormom) and sometimes (Latter-day Saint), such as George Reynolds (Mormon). Personally I prefer (Latter-day Saint) because it distinguishes what sect this person is a member, as only the LDS Church uses "Latter-day Saint" while other sects us "Latter Day Saint" and "Mormon". However, I admit that this is not done as often as (Mormon), so I have purposed to use (Mormon). I will be happy no matter which is chosen, but I think this page should be renames for uniformity reasons. --- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 12:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose The problem with this suggested rename is that all 4 people listed at Henry Eyring are Mormons. Henry Eyring (chemist) even is more well known in Mormon circles than this one, he published a significant book Science and Your Faith in God within Mormon circles, he also was a member of the General Sunday School Board of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Beyond this, Henry B. Eyring, is by most measures the 2nd highest ranking official in The Church at present. Mormon would not distinguish this Henry Eyring from any of the others. Only the fact that he converted to the Church distinguishes him from the others. Come to think of it, it is believed by some that the only reason Henry Eyring (chemist) didn't receive the Nobel Prize is that he was a Mormon. Whether that is true, clearly his Mormonism is closely-tied to his identity, and so we can't rename this article to using just Mormon without causing confusion.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose John Pack Lambert makes a very clear case why this move is not an improvement. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The article could be renamed Henry Eyring (1835-1902) if people do not like the current name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support Henry Eyring (1835-1902). That seems a more satisfactory disambiguator than convert vs. not a convert. SnowFire (talk) 20:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Another suggested name for moving

I saw the move discussion earlier proposed moving to "Henry Eyring (Mormon)", which is problematic since all persons being disambiguated are Mormons. I also dislike the current disambiguator "Mormon convert", probably because he isn't primarily notable for being a convert. He is notable for being an LDS leader, missionary, bishop, mission president, translator of the D&C into German, mayor of St. George, and progenitor of LDS notables. No one of these roles lasted for a major period of his life, so I'm not sure whether any of them would be clarifying as his disambiguator (especially since these other Henry Eyrings have been church leaders and missionaries, though not translators or mayors). Since he immigrated to Utah in 1860 (before the railroad in 1869), perhaps the article could be "Henry Eyring (Mormon pioneer)" or simply "Henry Eyring (pioneer)", since a pioneer carried that status for life. Similar to the following:

• Daniel Wood (Mormon pioneer)
• Henry Heath (Mormon pioneer)
• John Brown (Mormon pioneer)
• William Barlow (pioneer)
• John Atherton (pioneer)
• John Young (pioneer)
• Ben Daniels (pioneer)
• Charles Boarman (pioneer)

Thoughts? ——Rich jj (talk) 20:31, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 8 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Henry Eyring (Mormon pioneer). Jenks24 (talk) 09:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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Henry Eyring (Mormon convert) → Henry Eyring (1835-1902) → Henry Eyring (pioneer)–Henry Eyring (1835–1902) or Henry Eyring (pioneer)– "(Mormon convert)" is still a bad way to name this page, and Rich jj agreed with me. While, my first suggestion was not liked by John Pack Lambert and SnowFire, they did suggested Henry Eyring (1835-1902), and the closing admin made no decision on that name. While I personally like other choices better, I Henry Eyring (1835-1902) as it is at least better then how it is named now. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 16:00, 22 June 2015 (UTC) --- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 18:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: On the NCPDAB guideline (disambiguation conventions for articles about people), it recommends disambiguating titles use:
  "a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in his or her own right"
  "avoid using abbreviations or anything capitalized"
  "limit the tag to a single, recognizable and highly applicable term"
  "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators ... although this may be necessary ... when there are multiple people with the same name and tag."
  "For historical figures when there is no dominant qualifier (at least no practical one), the descriptor may be omitted in favour of a single use of the date of birth or death."
  The last point may apply to this nomination (but should dates be used for both birth and death?). I prefer a more descriptive title, with recognizability and naturalness (see CRITERIA), so I think I'd most prefer "Henry Eyring (pioneer)". ——Rich jj (talk) 21:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support - It needs a name change. But, keep it simple. Do not over think this. Two sample name changes: 1) Henry C. F. Eyring or 2) Henry Eyring because he was the first in age (1835) but first change the current disambig Henry Eyring to Henry Eyring (disambiguation). Number 1) is my preference. Jrcrin001 (talk) 01:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Henry Eyring alone will most often refer to the chemist. That will be the primary usage, so we would not be able to workably use that naming. I have to say I favor Henry C. F. Eyring. It is the most staight forward.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment what about using his full name? -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That's generally inadvisable unless he was known as such; see WP:COMMONNAME and WP:MIDDLES. --BDD (talk) 16:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NCPDAB, but I'm fine with Support Henry Eyring (pioneer) and open to other alternatives. --BDD (talk) 16:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - To be honest, Henry Eyring (pioneer) is fine with me also. However, the above move request suggested Henry Eyring (1835-1902) so that is why I went with it. It wasn't my choice really. My goal is trying to get the current version changed as it is a very poor choice. --- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 18:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support Henry Eyring (1835-1902), and weak support pioneer. I agree the current name is poor, but I don't think "pioneer" is really the right description from reading the biography (and think it's a little shady for some of the linked examples above that use it... I personally would associate pioneers with the likes of Sieur de La Salle or Daniel Boone of an earlier era of exploration. (Still better than "Mormon convert" though.) Birth / death is not great but it's at least neutral & accurate. SnowFire (talk) 00:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support Henry Eyring (1835-1902). Why "pioneer"? Pioneer in what? There are a many, many alternatives and I am unsure of the extent to which the American pioneer interpretation is widely viewed outside the U.S. The article makes no mention of "pioneer".

I also think that "pioneer" may be a POV description and am unsure whether native Americans would have viewed European and other settlers in the same way. GregKaye 07:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• Another option would be Henry Eyring (Mormon pioneer). It would appear to be over-precise disambiguation since (pioneer) does the job on its own, but Mormon pioneers are a distinct group—Eyring fits the criterion given at Category:Mormon pioneers. --BDD (talk) 13:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
  • After reading these comments, I'm now leaning toward "(Mormon pioneer)" too. In my March comment I liked it, but for this request I read guidelines and thought leaving off "Mormon" would "avoid ... anything capitalized" and "limit the tag to a single, recognizable and highly applicable term". Now I think "pioneer" alone is not specific enough (as was pointed out), in light of American pioneers or intellectual pioneers. "Mormon pioneer" is more recognizable. "Henry C. F. Eyring" or "Henry Carlos Ferdinand Eyring" aren't recognizable unless he was/is commonly referred to as such. ——Rich jj (talk) 16:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Henry Eyring (1835-1902) and weak support pioneer. A date range goes against the standard disambig parenthetical formatting. The disambig should be a group of which the subject of the main article is a subset of, not a date range of the subject's lifetime. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I support Henry Eyring (Mormon pioneer), Henry Eyring (pioneer) or Henry Eyring (1835-1902). I just think the current naming is very poor.--- ARTEST4ECHO^(Talk) 17:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.