Talk:Hand On the Torch

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Requested move 26 February 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per rough consensus. It seems this issue of capitalisation should be debated more broadly rather than fought over on individual articles — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

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Hand on the Torch → Hand On the Torch – I believe this title is not about an actual hand on an actual torch, but rather means "pass the torch". So "hand on" is a phrasal verb here, and "on" is not used as a preposition, and must thus be capitalized according to MOS:CT. Darkday (talk) 08:53, 26 February 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 04:57, 7 March 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. -- Dane ^talk 17:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NCCAPS which states that prepositions less than five letters long that are neither the first nor last word of the title should not be capitalized. Steel1943 (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
  • In this title, "on" is not a preposition, but an adverb particle. Darkday (talk) 17:40, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
    • Possibly, but when used in article titles, there's really no clean way to illustrate that. Also, the only reference for the subject uses the word "on" in lower case, so there is also lack of proof. Steel1943 (talk) 04:52, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
      • You are right: The title can have two meanings, and we can't say with absolute certainty which one was intended by the band. The title could either mean "(a) hand on the torch", or "hand(ing) on the torch". In the first case, "on" is a preposition and must be lowercased according to MOS:CT, while in the second case it's an adverb and must be capitalized. However, the fact that there are two possible interpretations does not mean that they are equally probable. "(a) hand on the torch" strikes me as an odd title for an album. On the other hand, "passing/handing (on) the torch" is a common idiom, and a good title for an album in my opinion. Therefore I think it's far more likely that this is the intended meaning, and the capitalization of this title should not follow the less likely interpretation. Darkday (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
• Is there any source to state that "hand on" is a phrasal verb? If so, the move makes sense.  ONR  (talk)  04:08, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • There are: Macmillan Dictionary, Oxford Learner's Dictionary, Collins Dictionary. Darkday (talk) 16:33, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

• support. really, this aversion to capital letters is getting to the ridiculous. now we even decapitalise when grammar indicates we should. andrewa (talk) 05:09, 14 march 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - If dictionaries, prepositions, and phrasal verbs are not enough, then I shall provide sources.

"Hand on the Torch": book about digital sampling, book about jazz standards, Vibe mag, book about creativity and law, Essential Jazz, Rewriting, The Ultimate Digital Music Guide, a pop music encyclopedia, AllMusic Guide, Copyrights and Copywrongs, New York mag, CNET

"Hand On The Torch": CMJ, Billboard, Ebony

Sources prove that "Hand on" is often used a lot more than "Hand On". However, not one source does "Hand On the Torch". By the way, have liked "Cantaloupe" when I was a kid. --George Ho (talk) 05:04, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• What do sources have to do with that? The capitalization of composition titles is governed by MOS:CT. How external sources capitalize a title is completely irrelevant. Darkday (talk) 15:44, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• WP:AT explains very little about capitalization/casing. Nevertheless, WP:V may also apply to article titles, even when it doesn't literally mention them. The sources are reliable to verify such casing use. Of course, WP:V also mentions determining reliability of sources, especially ones that I gave out. If necessary, we can discuss the letter casing at WT:AT or WT:NCCAPS after the discussion is over. --George Ho (talk) 16:32, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

  Hmm... Official website uses "Hand On The Torch", but WP:SELFPUBLISH may apply. George Ho (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support. While it is indeed unknown whether the song title means someone who has their hand on a torch, or if it means passing the torch, it seems very likely it is the latter, as "hand on the torch" is a common English expression, similar to "pass the torch". Therefore per MOS:CAPS "Hand On" is a phrasal verb, and we should capitalise it.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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