Talk:Halligen

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Result of proposal: Page moved. Strong argument based on WP:PLURAL. --Hadal (talk) 01:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Hallig → Halligen – Although plural, this a proper name (map name) used in the plural cf. Philippines, Azores, Tusenøyane, Valsörarna. "Hallig" is rarely (never?) used in English. —  AjaxSmack  04:02, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose. It is most irregular to form an English-language plural according to the conventions of another language. As a map feature, they are "Die Halligen". However, it is common to use the word to refer to an island with specific characteristics, rather than as the proper of an island group:

• "A hallig is a sand-island occasionaly covered with water." Seeing Europe with Famous Authors
• "By contrast, Farewell, Stranger is set on a tiny Hallig island off Germany's northern coast in Schleswig-Holstein." German Cinema
• "Hallig islands are areas of salt marsh that are flooded sporadically during exceptionally high tides." Full of Life: UNESCO Biosphere Reserves, Model Regions for Sustainable Development
• "No, it's a Hallig, one of about 10 tiny wafer-flat 'islets'... Germany (Lonely Planet) Kauffner (talk) 13:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

• • But that's not the topic of this article. This article is about the group of islands off the coast of North Friesland, not a type of islet. We have an article at Bahamas because it's about a group of islands, not a type of island. —  AjaxSmack  20:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support it doesn't seem there are sources to support "a hallig" in this context, per AjaxSmack's second comment as well. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• If you are referring to one island, what else would call it? I get 193 (89 deghosted) post-1990 English-language GBook hits for halligen Frisian, 138 (122 deghosted) for hallig Frisian. If you want to spend the night on one, there's "Hallig rental" ($126/night). If "hallig" is the English-language singular, that's the root and the name we should use for the title. A correctly formed English-language plural would be "Hallig Islands". (278 --87 deghosted-- GBook hits). "Hallig Islands (Germany)" is a library catalogue subject heading, call number DD801.H15 B4. Britannica says "Halligen Islands", which is not as good, but acceptable as well. Kauffner (talk) 10:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• If you are referring to one island, you would use its name (e.g. Langeneß, Süderoog). Halligen is used to refer to the group. Cf. the Bahamas. We don't refer to one Bahama (except Grand Bahama); all of the islands together are Bahamas with each having its own name. Neither Hallig nor Halligen are English names and they are not exonyms so we simply use the official form. Note the similar non-English plurals given above in the nomination. —  AjaxSmack  01:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. The article is about the specific group of islands, thus named, not about the generic concept of "a hallig". An alternative would be Halligs, though this ngram seems to indicate that Halligen is more widely used in recent, English-language books. That we should refrain from using "English-language plural according to the conventions of another language" is rather emphatically contradicted by the contents of Category:Pasta. WP:OTHERSTUFF, I know, but tasty stuff. Favonian (talk) 17:05, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
  • No one has suggest using "Halligs" as a plural, much less as a title. See this ngram. Kauffner (talk) 17:25, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
    • OK, let me try to explain my convoluted logic. I (and others) have argued that the singular form is inappropriate for an article about a group of islands. Since somebody (you actually) disapproved of the foreign plural, "Halligs" was on the table. Let's consider the poor old equine sufficiently punished! Favonian (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Leontopodium alpinum (talk) 18:34, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support per WP:PLURAL and its exception rule: "Articles on groups or classes of specific things." This is certainly that. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Revisiting Move Proposal

It seems like since the move proposal was settled in 2012, additional English sources have been written regarding these islands. I suspect this is because they have now been a UNESCO biosphere reserve for a decade. There seems to be a strong showing for translating them as Hallig islands as well as Halligen islands. So, my proposal would be to move the page to Hallig islands, and have Hallig, Halligs, Halligen, and Halligen islands redirect to Hallig Islands. Also looking at "Google Ngrams", it looks like hallig and halligs have been slightly preferred over halligen in English books over the last decade. Not necessarily a very strong argument, but I think it's useful directional guidance. I'm also including a few links below with the Hallig islands usage in different contexts, in sources ranging from highly reputable to clickfarms.

• "Wadden Sea and Hallig Islands of Schleswig-Holstein Biosphere Reserve, Germany (UNESCO)"
• "Will Germany's vanishing Hallig islands survive rising seas? (Deutsche Welle)"
• "The Hallig Islands Are Wonderful And Special Place (Barnorama - appears to be an viral image reposting site)"
• "Hallig island Hooge" (video via Rumble)

-Furicorn (talk) 22:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)