Talk:Grim Reapers Motorcycle Club (Canada)

Clean up

I wrote this original article. Since that time, additional material has been added, most unsourced. While some of the additions added value to the article (thank you), many did not. I now will need to re-visit all of my sources to sort out the wheat from the chaff. For example, my original article cited the founding date for the Grim Reapers to be 1958. Also, the bit that was later added about the 1970 murder of a rival biker gang leader, while true, remains unsourced. I'm looking for the books where I read about that particular crime.

I've found a source that does cite the founding date of 1967, so I've added that. However, I do clearly recall reading in another reference that the founding date was 1958. This could have been someone mixing up the group of the same name founded in the US, or not. Either way, I'm seeking additional confirmation of the founding date. 1967 seems reasonable; I know that their early rivals (and later allies), the Rebels MC (not to be confused with the Aussies by the same name) were originally founded in Red Deer in 1968 and then after that (original) chapter quickly folded, the Rebels Edmonton chapter became the mother chapter in the following year 1969. Garth of the Forest (talk) 02:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I have changed the founding date back to 1967, as I have now seen several good sources that cite this date, and one less reliable one that claims 1958. Garth of the Forest (talk) 20:17, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

So, in short, your contributions are welcome if they maintain a neutral point of view, can be verified with third party references, and do not undo the well-researched work of editors whose work preceded yours. Any additions which cannot be verified or do not add value to the article will be removed forthwith. Garth of the Forest (talk) 19:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed unrelated external reference

I'm not sure what this has to do with this article about the Grim Reapers Motorcycle Club, so I removed it.

• Contractors Gone Wild

Garth of the Forest (talk) 20:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Is the US club notable?

Yes, they are current, yes they have a website. But are they notable? Ditto for the UK club.

If they are notable, should they not have their very own article, instead of hijacking this one?

Discuss please. Garth of the Forest (talk) 15:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I notice one of the links you put back in does not mention the Grim Reapers (Canada) at all. That is why I took it out. Why should it be in? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bridge Boy (talk • contribs) 01:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea which link you are referring to. I will check edit history and get back to you. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

What's particularly notable about a motorcycle club that does not exist any more or, for that matter, one biker shooting another biker 40 years ago? If the Wikipedia has to become a repository for each and every individual shooting in North American history for the rest of history, it is going to be unmanageable? I just paraphrased it to its minimum.

And in doing so, you introduced a major inaccuracy by referring to the event as a "shooting". If you would have actually taken any time to check the sources I provided you would have known that the cause of death was blunt force trauma due to being struck in the head with a chain. At any rate, I do agree that the information about the Hartley murder isn't necessarily the most notable information about the club (partly because it happened so long ago), but if you are going to edit an article at least keep the facts straight. As far as which Grim Reapers club is more notable - it is not a contest but if we were forced to choose just one of these clubs to have their own article - what makes the American club more notable? That they currently exist? Is Latvia then more notable than ancient Sparta? Is the Republic of Tunisia more notable than Ancient Carthage? Is the American club more notable because they have a website? Any chimp with a computer can put up a webpage, that doesn't make him and the apes he claims to ride with notable bikers .... Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

As for much of the rest, do you have more specific dates? The topic says the Grim Reapers patched over to the HA in 1997, so isn't what happens after that about the HA then? My logic was if so, unless the topic is just badly entitled, what is it doing on this page?

I don't understand your point. If Hawaii became part of the USA in 1959, does that mean that anything that happened in Hawaii prior to that is irrelevant? Or perhaps another example cuts more to the point you were trying to make: If Company A sues someone, and the event is notable, and Company A then gets acquired by Company B, does that mean that what you are saying is, for example, that information about the lawsuit (even if it settles after the merger is finalized) shouldn't be included in the article about Company A? Many articles (or sections from articles) on Wikipedia are historical in nature. Help me understand what you are saying here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I see from your user page you are a Canadian motorcyclist. Is there a chance that distorts your perspective on this topic or events and makes them appear more important than they actually are from a world point of view?

Not at all. I also wrote an article about a Canadian club called the Rebels - but I didn't presume to think it should "replace" or be included within the article about the Aussie club of the same name. From the perspective of current events, or number of members, the Aussie club is far more notable. However, my point is - if the Grim Reapers MC (Canada) is notable from a historical perspective (which - I would argue - at least from an organized crime perspective - they are), they warrant their own article. I was challenging you (and other editors) to defend whether or not either the American or UK club of similar name are notable. If they are notable, what makes them notable? If yes (which I might agree with, at least with regard to the American club), then that club should have its own article, not be confused within an existing article about a different topic. IMHO, as far as the UK MCC club goes, it looks like a bunch of chumps with a few pictures of rice rockets and a fancy logo on their home-made website. I don't even know why we'd bother to mention them here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Similarly, it doesn't make sense for information about London, Ontario, Canada, to be embedded within an article about London, UK. If London, Ontario needs to be mentioned at all - it might be at a dis-ambiguity page (which is what I had done already with the US and Canadian clubs called Grim Reapers). Or, if notable, then London, Ontario should have its very own article. That was my point. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Time stands for no man nor his club and as it does definitions and priorities change. Actually, I have this marked for more work and possibly splitting in future. Thanks.--Bridge Boy (talk) 01:39, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you; that was the response I was looking for. I will seek consensus with some of the other interested editors. However, you still have not answered my original question. What makes the American club called Grim Reapers notable? Once we answer that question, it will determine whether a split is warranted, or perhaps simply a complete revert. ;-) Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Re: Hawaii. It is not a good comparable because Hawaii is a geographic reference and USA is a statutory so they both exist whereas in a "patch over" the old club disappears and any crimes etc carried out after the patch over would be the responsibility of the new club.

One of the thing that went against the Grim Reapers (Canada) was that a number of the reference either did not even mention them, nor did they support what was written. It seems to have been a single chapter club whereas the US and UK (and others worldwide) have many.

This is complete bullshit and proves you either were purposely editing in a disruptive manner or have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or were too lazy to do the least little bit of research before editing the article. I am so glad you were blocked from editing due to your other ill-fated escapades; it has saved me a lot of time and trouble. Garth of the Forest (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I cannot follow the way you have written to me so do you mind just replying under my posts instead of interspacing? Thanks.

In my opinion, none of them are actually that notable or, to put it another way, they are all equally notable, i.e. notable to those in their respective geographic areas, and so I am not going to be prejudiced against any one club, and respect them all equally. I also want to open the door and encourage others with better specific knowledge than I to collaborate. Therefore, it is good to incorporate them. --Bridge Boy (talk) 18:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I have split this into two separate articles. I have better specific knowledge on the Canadian club than you, you may have better specific knowledge than I on the American club of the same name, so let's each edit, shall we, where we will each do the least damage (or most good, if you prefer to look at it that way)? Garth of the Forest (talk) 22:37, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Splitting the article

This article was originally about the Canadian motorcycle club, but later had content added that was about the American and UK clubs of similar names. I have split into two separate articles; please see Grim Reapers Motorcycle Club (USA) for information about the American club known as Grim Reapers MC; that article also contains an external link to a website for a UK organization calling itself Grim Reapers MCC.

I have retained the historical talk pages, which applied to the content of this article, here. Garth of the Forest (talk) 22:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

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