Talk:Gougère

Reflecting sources accurately

A couple of recent edits have made claims in the text sourced to sources which say something else:

Edit	Text says	Source says	Edit summary
[1]	Traditionally, the gougère features Gruyère or Comté cheese, though other cheeses, especially emmenthaler, may be used	coarsely grated cheese, such as Gruyere or cheddar[2]	more exact info
[3]	Traditionally, the gougère features Gruyère or Comté cheese, both of which are specialties of the Franche-Comté region, though other cheeses, especially emmenthaler, may be used.	The most common cheeses for flavoring Gougères are Gruyère, Comté or Emmental.[4]	more exact text; better refs

Not only are the lists of cheeses different, but neither source says anything about "tradition" (cf. Wikipedia:WikiProject_Food_and_drink/Original,_authentic,_and_traditional). Supporting a statement with a source which says something else is dishonest (regardless of whether the statement is correct and whether the sources themselves are reliable). --Macrakis (talk) 16:53, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

What is actually dishonest and incompetent here is your reporting of the sources-- note the plural there are 3 and they need to be read together; they also say: "traditionally made with Gruyère"; "a traditional base of comté"; "Gruyère or Comté cheese"; "The most common cheeses for flavoring Gougères are Gruyère, Comté or Emmental." Wran (talk) 04:56, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Your edits claim that gruyère and comté are 'traditional', and that other cheeses like emmental are not, though they 'may be used'. I see no basis for this distinction in your cited sources, which even mention cheddar. The older sources I've found cite only gruyère (e.g. La bonne cuisine de Madame E. Saint-Ange s.v.; Robert Courtine, Cent merveilles de la cuisine française; Escoffier, Le guide culinaire).

But many sources (especially older ones) are probably not being as punctilious about cheese names as we are today, and the name 'gruyère' may well cover all similar medium-hard cheeses that melt well (including both comté and emmental). Indeed, many cooks feel free to use other cheeses as well, either mixed or alone; cf. Kenney-Herbert 1905 (an English, not a French, chef) who uses only parmesan, which doesn't even melt well. --17:48, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Apparently you can't read either: the quotes from the sources use 'traditional' twice; you're also wrong about usage: when older sourcs say gruyere, etc, they really mean just that; it's modern usage that uses such names (as well as the term gougere) more losely or analogically, for indeed today people may use anything and call it gougere, but that's not what it traditionally means. Also, till quite recently, comte was technically known as 'gruyere de comte' or popularly as french, as opposed to swiss, gruyere Wran (talk) 18:29, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Let's look at the three sources in your most recent version:

• http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/glossary/g/Gougeres.htm

First of all, this is an about.com article, so not a Reliable Source. But what does it say about the cheeses? It says "The most common cheeses for flavoring Gougères are Gruyère, Comté or Emmental." The only time it mentions tradition is "Gougères are traditionally made by piping ..."

• http://fxcuisine.com/Default.asp?Display=66

Again, not a reliable source. A blog by an enthusiast. About the cheeses: "traditionally made with Gruyère", adding "Go for a salted 24month Gruyère d'alpage if you can, a seasoned Comté or substitute with aged Parmesan if you must."

• http://www.citronetvanille.com/blog/appetizers/so-french-gougeres-with-comte-cheese-and-thyme

Again, a blog, though the author is a chef. Still doesn't count as a Reliable Source by WP standards. "Usually, gougères are made with hard cheeses like gruyère, parmesan or comté, but you can use roquefort, or other strong cheeses. I stayed with a traditional base of comté..." OK, so here is one (not reliable) source claiming comté is traditional, though it's not clear whether she's excluding other cheeses as equally traditional.

To the extent that any of these cheeses is "traditional", it appears to be gruyère (see my sources above), but I am skeptical about the whole concept of "tradition" for foods -- these "traditions" are often invented and change over time. --Macrakis (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

about.com is a division of nyt and thus a reliable source; the other two are chefs and thus eminently reliable primary sources. thousands of sources list Gruyère, Comté or Emmental as the cheeses used in gougeres (eg the latest 2009 edition of larousse gastronomique); I simply took the first three that came up in a search, being physically handicapped and not having as much time to waste as you apparently do. your notion that 'To the extent that any of these cheeses is "traditional", it appears to be gruyère' is correct if it includes comte as a type of gruyere, by which name it was legally known till 2001, and is still popularly known; in fact since gougeres are burgundian the most traditional ones would have almost certainly used french gruyere which is what we today officially label as comte. when people look to a work for info on a subject like this they generally want to know how it is traditionally delineated, not how any one might conceivably do so: obviously chefs create variations on traditions all the time and steal traditional terms, though the better ones use qualifiers, eg 'gougeres with thyme', 'blue cheese gougeres'. if by invented you mean created or developed this is true of everything except perhaps god or whatever is responsible for the universe, so it's essentially meaningless; and, yes, everything does change too-- what of it? Wran (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

• "about.com is a division of nyt and thus a reliable source". Whatever its ownership, about.com is written by freelance "guides" who are not under the editorial control of the New York Times. There doesn't seem to be blackletter WP policy about whether about.com should be treated as an RS, but it is a tertiary source and (subjectively) seems to be somewhat less reliable than WP itself, which is not considered a RS. (Though of course, as with WP, there are some excellent articles on about.com -- and some terrible ones.)
• "thousands of sources..." Numbers aren't terribly interesting here. Reliability is. "I simply took the first three that came up in a search" is a pretty haphazard approach to finding reliable sources.
• "not having as much time to waste as you apparently do" If you consider finding reliable sources a waste of time then I've got to wonder whether your editing conforms to WP:V and WP:RS.
• "since gougeres are burgundian" -- did you read the sources I provided on the history of gougere? For whatever reason, they have come to be considered as Burgundian, but apparently in the 19th century they were more associated with Flanders (and perhaps more like a talmouse than the modern gougere).
• "traditionally" -- have you read my essay on original, authentic, and traditional in food?
• "if by invented you mean created or developed this is true of everything... so it's essentially meaningless; and, yes, everything does change too-- what of it?" -- "tradition" is a fluid thing, and lots of people claim it. So it's better to be specific than to broadly claim that something is "traditional". --Macrakis (talk) 14:07, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

American vernacular

It’s called a cheese puff, I think. Drsruli (talk) 06:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)