Talk:Gord Perks

Disputed text

I read through all the references and I have summarized the pertinent quotes/sections here and my opinion of the validity/notability of said quotes. There are no quotes/sections disputed in question and they should appear on the page as placed.

Many points have been raised about the encyclopedic entries or portions of that are usually deleted are ones that might not be agreed with by certain ideological views of the users removing them otherwise making this a one sided POV encyclopedia entry favouring the subject as a re-election propaganda piece.

• "despite an outburst over his lack of remuneration" I could not find the article referenced.

Article is found by clicking the link that was updated or corrected.

• "and his broken promise of completing Roncesvalles Avenue's construction project on time and on budget" again reference missing.

Article is found by clicking the link that was updated or corrected. The Globe and Mail requires a subscription to see the article after the paper publishes.

• "Perks continues to fight for union jobs, largely opposing outsourcing and budget cuts". The reference is from a column by Sue-Ann Levy. The pertinent phrase from the column is "Frankly, it should not have caught the likes of Gord Perks or Adam Vaughan on the left of council - who were busy yammering about how they won't support contracting out (tell me something I don't know) - by surprise." Aside from the fact that Levy is a notably biased source and her columns are her opinion rather than news, the source mentions nothing about opposing budget cuts.

So the subject supports budget cuts. Doesn't sound like a POV to me. If Levy is biased, then that makes the Star biased too? This is an encyclopedia, articles from all news sources should be sought out to paint the true picture.

• "and has become known for a combative style of cross-examining councillors." This is in reference to an short article which includes this text:

“ When budget chief Mike Del Grande made a comment about last night's public consultations, councillor Gord Perks pointed out voters, not city groups, dominated the meetings.

"I don't need you to reprimand me, okay? I don't need you reprimand me and you're constantly doing that. You're not on the budget committee, you're a guest. Okay? You keep forgetting that," Perks said, as he tried to correct the budget chief."

”

Nowhere in the article does it mention that Perks has a combative style, this is the opinion of the anonymous editor who posted this material. Therefore it fails to meet WP:NPOV criteria.

Is not a POV, Perks is well known for his antics going back to the 1990 Ontario General Election.

• "Most recently, Perks has been accused of ignoring the plight of a Parkdale neighbourhood fighting a new methadone clinic". It is true that during a public meeting one resident shouted "You’ve neglected this neighborhood Gord Perks." However, the article quotes Perks that the methadone clinic meets the zoning requirements (something that local councillors have no control over). This text is not balanced and fails to meet WP:Notability.

Is notable if he didn't show empathy to his constituents or help get them in touch with the level of government that is responsible for it. What is Cheri DiNovo's stance on the clinic and where is she on the issue? Only Rob Ford has agreed to listen or show any empathy, although he too had stated council could only speak for but not change the issue.

• "and has been criticized for not coming to the aid of a disabled man's trash problems." The only mention of Perks in the quoted article (which by the way has a different title) is "Upon hearing that Drozdzal had no luck with several phone calls to area Councillor Gord Perks' office..." Nowhere in the article does it mention that Perks was criticized. In addition this incident does not meet WP:Notability requirements.

I've had trash problems and been told to call 311, so what are councillors for and why can't he cut his own budget?

Neutrality

I have made some edits to make this less of an attack on Perks. for example:

• the comment about the Toronto Stra, which endorsed Perks, being "the same paper who's computers edited the Rob Ford Wikipedia", is not neutral. It is an attempt to undermine the credibility of the newspaper that endorsed Perks. This could have read "the largest circulation newspaper in the city", which would have explained why this endorsement is significant. Or, we can just leave out modifiers, and let the reader read the Wikipedia article on the Star and make up their own minds.

There is nothing credible about a newspaper that edits a wiki page, but in agreement of the latter suggestion to learn more about how this paper editorializes left, just as the Toronto Sun or National Post editorializes right. However it should be noted that the subject has received a pay cheque in the past and that such a recommendation is suspect.

• "pointing towards a pile of boxes containing council documents, despite his outcry of more money for himself and his work in the ward he represents" - I can't open the cited Globe article to see if it actuqally said that, but i am sure it didn't because the Globe would not make such grammatical errors or write in such a clumsy style.

Ground Zero | t 18:58, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

You couldn't find the Globe and Mail article because you didn't pay to subscribe, and obviously didn't notice that the National Post was the one that interviewed him. You obviously know less about the subject than you think. Here's the whole article, if you bothered to click the www link you could have found it. If you don't like the clumsy style or grammar errors, rewrite the sentence not delete it.

Zoning bylaw lands on city councillors

Peter Kuitenbrouwer Aug 11, 2010 – 3:12 PM ET

Councillor Gord Perks (Parkdale-High Park), normally a butt0n-down type of guy, prone to thin ties and charcoal suits, is looking slightly disheveled this afternoon at City Hall, with a wine-red shirt unbuttoned two buttons and his shirtsleeves rolled up. He pointed to a cart on which sat dozens of green cardboard boxes, each about the size of a beer cooler you would take to the beach.

“See that?” he asked. “That’s the zoning bylaw.” For fun, he opened one box, and I saw the paper. Thousands and thousands of pages, roughly a dozen Toronto phone books stacked end to end. All of this is one item coming to Planning and Growth Management Committee next week: the new harmonized Toronto zoning bylaw.

“It’s going to be a bloodbath,” Mr. Perks predicted. “All the contentious stuff, they save for the last council meeting [the August meeting is the last one before the October municipal election]. I don’t even think we’ll pass the damn thing.” Meanwhile, he added, “I’ll have to read the damn thing. They don’t pay me enough.”

This isn't a discussion, it's a dictatorship

Users here are quick to delete, not re-write the sentence or better source the article in this page and have taken the stance it is only a chronological ordered resume highlighting only the subject's accomplishments, not open to scrutiny as politicians are and should be.

Users such as EncyclopediaUpdaticus are biased towards the NDP as the only real clue left is a suggestion to search out Elaine Ziemba, former High Park-Swansea MPP and defeated cabinet minister. This user has deleted content, such as rewritten the results to total up the % and votes for independent or "fringe" candidates in the 2006 and 2010 council elections, almost as if they all ran as one borg. The same users are censoring viewing of documents such as the external City of Toronto votes database that can't see what their councillor voted for. That's short circuiting democracy for you by censoring information, because we all know information is power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.64.18 (talk) 05:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Timharper068/Archive.... Night of the Big Wind _talk 11:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion, or a debate, it's an encyclopedia article. And Wikipedia is not a democracy. It isn't a dictatorship either. We don't write an encyclopedia article on a person by having one or more of his/her opponents dig up every bit of bad press he/she has received and posting that, while his supporters dig up every bit of positive press and post it. An encyclopedia article should summarize the key information about a person's life from a neutral point of view. "NPOV" is one of the central principles of Wikipedia. Personally, I am not a New Democrat, and I don't like NDP politicians, but I don't let that influence how I edit articles. The above user has been repeatedly adding only content that is critical of left-wing members of Toronto Council. This is not helpful in building the article. And being sloppy about it by leaving in grammatical and spelling errors and telling other editors to clean up after him is not helpful either. If you want to contribute, then do so in a way that is consistent with Wikipedia policies, especially WP:NPOV, WP:BLP and WP:RS, and get the grammar and spelling right. Ground Zero | t 14:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

POV Agenda

There's no POV agenda in the content, all newsworthy locally and in the broader Toronto media circus. Good bad or ugly, it's politics and current, relevant. Any politician's record should be recorded; just part of the game. See Rob Ford's article, much more content and real cyber vandalism happens there. See this exact link, he is not a proud gay man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rob_Ford&diff=442110474&oldid=442110428

As for his brother Doug Ford, a disambiguation page called him an ******* by creating a parallel red lined article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doug_Ford&diff=446539286&oldid=445459473

Don't like it, find more information. Think it to be too POV, edit it. What a politician supports is what one supports, that's not POV that's a fact.

99.234.65.134 (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

And editing is just what I did. Removing negative cherrypicking, statements backed up by unuseable sources (comments in papers) and neutralizing other statements. Night of the Big Wind _talk 02:26, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I find the "good, bad or ugly" comment to be amusing. This editor seems to be focused solely on the bad or ugly when it comes to Mr. Perks. There is not interest in presenting the good. Use:Night has appropriately edited by removing the POV-pushing. Ground Zero | t 03:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The good is his environmentalism and trade unionism. The bad is his own cherry picking of issues. Taking the side of a methadone clinic but opposing a liquor licence for a GLBT bar in Parkdale during Pride. 99.234.64.18 (talk) 03:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Grammar and sentence structure

Poor grammar and sentence structure? It is unhelpful if users simply delete, they should rewrite it instead given this to be an evolving encyclopedia, rather than a printed one.

• It is unhelpful to dump a bunch of garbage in an article and tell others it`s their job to clean it up. It isn`t. Ground Zero | t 03:24, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Criticism and controversy

Section added to match other members of council that have wiki articles. 99.234.64.18 21:56, August 27, 2011 (UTC)

Rob Ford's section on Criticism and controversy

Ford and fellow councillor Giorgio Mammoliti, who occupies a neighbouring ward, have often scrapped with each other and these exchanges have made headlines in local newspapers. Controversy erupted when several councillors reportedly heard Ford call Mammoliti "Gino boy" in the debate over the 2002 budget. Mammoliti filed a complaint for the ethnic slur. Mammoliti's son Michael filed his papers to run against Ford in the 2003 municipal election, but withdrew at the last moment. In March 2003, in a debate over the budget of the Toronto Zoo, Ford called Mammoliti, who chairs the zoo board, a "snake" and a "weasel" in council. In September 2010, Mammoliti endorsed Ford for Mayor. Mammoliti has since become one of Ford's staunchest allies and supporters, even going as far as to defend Ford's policies to the media.

In 2006, allegations arose of his conduct at a Toronto Maple Leafs game. Two audience members alleged Ford instigated a shouting match. Security at the Air Canada Centre later ejected Ford from the venue. Initially, Ford denied involvement, claiming mistaken identity. The following day, Ford confirmed the allegations and announced his apology to the couple. He cited personal problems as a reason for his behaviour.

Further controversy erupted in a Toronto City Council session when Ford argued against the city spending $1.5 million on AIDS prevention programmes. Ford stated that "(AIDS) is very preventable," and that "if you are not doing needles and you are not gay, you wouldn't get AIDS probably, that's bottom line." With respect to the increasing rates of women contracting the disease, Ford said; "How are women getting it? Maybe they are sleeping with bisexual men." During a June 2005 council debate, Ford said, "I don't understand a transgender," asking "is it a guy dressed up like a girl or a girl dressed up like a guy?"

Again sparking controversy during a March 2008 debate at City Hall, Ford said, "Those Oriental people work like dogs. They work their hearts out ... that's why they're successful in life. ... I'm telling you, Oriental people, they're slowly taking over, because there's no excuses for them. They're hard, hard workers." He drew criticism for those remarks from Mayor David Miller, budget chief Shelley Carroll and other councillors.

In 1999, Ford was arrested in Miami for driving under the influence (DUI) and marijuana possession charges. According to the statement recorded by the arresting officer, Ford was acting nervous, had blood shot eyes and had "a strong odor of an alcoholic beverage on his breath". Ford threw his hands up in the air and told the police officer, "Go ahead, take me to jail." Until he was questioned by reporters, Ford said that the marijuana charge had "completely, totally slipped my mind" because the more serious issue during that arrest was the DUI charge. Ford initially denied the DUI charge, claiming instead he was arrested because he "refused to give a breath sample".

On October 24, 2011, Ford was confronted at his home by Mary Walsh, a cast member of the satirical show This Hour Has 22 Minutes, in costume as her character Marg Delahunty. Walsh has frequently conducted "ambush" interviews of Canadian politicians as this character, a housewife who dresses in an outfit inspired by Xena: Warrior Princess. Ford called 911 twice, reportedly shouting at the dispatcher "You … bitches! Don't you fucking know? I'm Rob fucking Ford, the mayor of this city!" Ford denied directing "foul and derogatory comments" at the dispatcher but apologized for his use of profanity. Toronto police Chief Bill Blair released a statement shortly afterwards stating that he had reviewed three emergency calls involving the mayor and that their content had been 'misrepresented'. According to the chief, the word 'bitches' was never used nor did the mayor describe himself as originally claimed.

Gord Perks' section on Criticism and controversy

Intentionally left blank. Criticism is excluded from this subject person, since all is rejected as a point of view. Properly cited from verifiable journalistic sources.

References

Newspaper subscription services

Newspapers are generally valid encyclopedia sources. Not all newspapers have free content after the initial publishing period has lapsed. Articles must be cited, not all sources are online due to age of article or require a paid subscription. The citation cannot be deleted for that reason.

Publishers that provide online paid subscription include The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail among other newspaper publishers.

This is a BLP, so sources must verifyable. Subscription-only services are not verifyable. And opinion pieces, like editorials and commentaries in newspapers, give opinions, noit facts. So as source they are unusable for articles about living people. I have rolled back all your edits... Night of the Big Wind _talk 09:28, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, any printed source is verifiable. Having an online component is just a bonus. References made in papers published 30 years ago or 100 years ago are fair game. FYI, articles from the Globe and the Star are available through the Toronto Public Library website (free access with a library card, which is also free to Toronto residents). Look for a database called Canada Newstand which has issues going back to about 1985. There is also Pages of the Past which has scanned images of papers from 1860 to 2003. EncyclopediaUpdaticus (talk) 11:20, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

If it is a serious point, it is more then likely that there are also other sources then this payed one. I'm only asking for another source... Night of the Big Wind _talk 17:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

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