Talk:George Frideric Handel's art collection

So now every can see how helpfull this person is. There is no time to finish the anything. Taksen (talk) 20:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean? Taksen, if you are editing the English WP, I believe you should do so with great care, since your language is not up to it by any standard. I would not presume to edit the Dutch WP unless I could write a proper sentence in Dutch. Tony (talk) 00:57, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

These two "sentences" were a sarcastic attempt to criticise me. Taksen believes that he can brutalise any article or section (with the aim of improving it), however he cannot tolerate anyone else quickly fixing the problems that he generates. Taksen has lost sight of the fact that he is working on articles that are continually read (300 – 700 people visit the Handel page every day) and therefore it is better not to leave pages in noticeably incomplete states. There are just so many problems with Taksen's current approach to editing on WP (and English is perhaps the least of them).  GFHandel.   01:40, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Issues with this article

The following issues need to be addressed:

• Any sample painting used as an image should be clearly marked as to whether it was actually in Handel's collection.
• The opening sentence "...had a great love for painting till his sight failed him" is very school-boy-ish (and sounds like it came from a poor-quality source). Why would a love of art stop with diminishing eyesight?
• The multitude of links to artists does little to elaborate on the nature of Handel's collection. There needs to be more work done on detailing individual paintings.

 GFHandel.   21:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

• I’d go further than that regarding the “sample painting”. Wikipedia’s target audience is that of a general-interest readership. Even if you go plus & minus two standard deviations, our entire readership knows what a “painting” looks like. Whereas the painting in this version of the article is an outstanding example of light & shadow in portraiture, it adds absolutely nothing to illustrate the concept of “George Handel’s art collection”. It even does worse than that; it improperly misleads the reader as to the nature of Handel’s art collection unless they read the caveat in the caption. Yes, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit (but not in any way you want). So…

  I’ve deleted it. Whereas I am an experienced wikipedian and have a solid grasp as to proper editorial principals on Wikipedia, I’m not an expert whatsoever with regard to Handel’s art collection. I’ll leave it up to a wikipedian specialist in this subject matter to choose a suitable painting from his collection to use to illustrate this article. Greg L (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Concern at the use of sources

I am most concerned at a certain looseness in the use of sourced material in this article. I'm afraid it's going to be a big job: the sources, where possible, will need to be checked through. I hope we can gather together enough contributors to do this. Tony (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

For example, where did the evidence for "he enjoyed viewing collections of pictures that were for sale.[1]" come from in the article in Early music? It's not a journal I've placed much faith in, although there have been a few authoritative articles over the decades. Taksin, since you are the one to have sourced this, could you provide more information? Tony (talk) 06:51, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Tony, you should not exagerate, the article is not very long and there are only two sources, and one is even online. Secondly, I did not add he enjoyed viewing collections of pictures that were for sale. It was Mr Handel himself who did that. I agree, the article is not satifying, because there is not a picture on a real painting Handel owned, and Commons does not have one either, but it is the only article on the subject. The pictures, copies of paintings, were interesting and some details on the painters. Handel like ruins and landscapes, which is not surprising. It was fashionabele in the 18th century. Yesterday I enjoyed to read about Denner, more than about Handel's collection.Taksen My nickname is Taks and en is short for english. (talk) 07:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Taksen, your mistakes are now drifting into the realm of intellectual dishonesty, and you need to stop and consider your future at WP. Prior to my edit, you had created the opening sentence of the article to be:

George Frideric Handel had a great love for painting till his sight failed him.

That was incorrect (and frankly ludicrous) based on the source you quoted, so I edited it to be precisely based on the source:

George Frideric Handel is reported to have had a great love for painting, and until his eyesight failed him, he enjoyed viewing collections of pictures that were for sale.

Are you genuinely saying that you can't follow what went on with these edits? Why did you misquote the source when you constructed the article?

 GFHandel.   09:28, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Contents of the collection

I've been reading the sources, and another problem has come to light. It is not clear that Handel owned works by most of the artists listed in the article. So far, I've seen reference to his owning paintings by: Denner, Poussin, Giovanni Niccolò Servandoni, Seb. Ricci, Francesco Mola, Poelenburgh, Carracci (although which one is uncertain), Pellegrini, Goupy, Jan van Goyen Rembrandt (unattributable) and Tillemans; and engravings by Rosa. He undoubtedly owned many more, but it's looking like it is impossible to determine which. Could someone please direct me to the references for Handel's ownership of artworks by the other artists in the list on this page? If such references can't be located, then the artists must be deleted from the list.  GFHandel.   07:18, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Removing a crucial sentence

It looks like you found an easy target. When I improvise, my English is not good enough and when I copy a sentence, it is a crime. I just cant do good in your point of view. Again you show you are not very helpful, but prefer to criticize and remove.

I believe it is not a crime to copy a sentence, and this is crucial, with a reference added. I did pay tribute to the author! Many Wikipedians prefer to change sentences so they dont have to make a reference or mention the author.

I learned a lot a the past few days on Balthasar Denner and Handel. I heard the weather is very nice downunder. Do you live near a beach or a river? Byebye for now. Taksen (talk) 06:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

(The above comment is in reference to my removal of material plagiarised by Taksen.)

Are you certain that you understand the meaning of the word "crucial"? I would say that the two sentences were the opposite of "crucial".

If your English is not "good enough" (and you obviously have no interest in learning about the policies and guidelines at the English WP) wouldn't it be better to confine yourself to editing somewhere where you feel more comfortable (possibly the Dutch WP)?

I'm sorry, but I find your comment "...weather is very nice downunder" to be in poor taste. Many Australians have recently died in the worse rains and floods in living memory. :-(

 GFHandel.   07:41, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

"I believe it is not a crime to copy a sentence"—it is usually a serious breach of WP policy and guidelines, not to mention unethical, if a whole sentence is pasted in from another source without quotations marks. Tony (talk) 08:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Merging the article

I agree, the article can be merged. I am not going to study the copies of paintings. It is possible to categorize the painters in landscape or seascape painters and so on, but who will be interested any longer; Handel was not a connoisseur. What was interesting to read that some paintings or prints had connections to cantata's or oratorio's, or to cities in which Handel lived or worked. I do the same, and probably everybody does.

I still think this list of painters is very typical for Wikipedia. It can help to improve or add information to some articles. Someone might like to use it. I learned quit a few things about English, Italian, French, Dutch, Austrian or Flemish painters I had never heard of. I dont pity I studied the subject.Taksen (talk) 07:31, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I would like nothing more than to have a wonderful, rich article about Handel's interest in art. The problem is that the secondary sources don't provide enough material to accurately detail the subject. It is not appropriate to be adding opinions (referenced or not) before adding facts. Find and enter the facts, and if the article survives and is rich-enough, perhaps a few referenced opinions could be added. The main reference you have relied on is full of comments such as "Handel's paintings would probably have been similar to..." and that's not good enough to form the basis of this article.

The only way the article could be saved is to get a copy of the catalogue used in the sale of Handel's artworks. Is that something you could spend time locating?

 GFHandel.   07:49, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

For what reason? The list is already printed in a book, do you want me type all in? Im sorry, Im not a typing goat.Taksen (talk) 08:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that you are not a typist. If you really believe I'm asking you to type it all out, then you have got even less idea about how things work at WP than I realised. Which book has the complete list? Is that the 1985 publication? Do you have the ISBN? I've emailed the author of the large article (that you have been using as the main reference source) for more details about the publication of the sale catalogue.  GFHandel.   08:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes: 0-904017-68-0 Taksen (talk) 14 January 2011 (UTC)

• To Taksen: I’m looking above at other threads here regarding your misinterpretation of what sources say, plagiarism, and the lack of encyclopedic tone to your writing. Your digging in your heels here as you have been is not a good thing. GFHandel is an experienced wikipedian and is quite knowledgeable about Handel. Moreover, we’ve had comments here by Tony, who has a Ph.D. in music and taught college courses in music. It is high time for you to exhibit greater flexibility so these other editors can have at least as much input into this article as you. Wikipedia is a collaborative writing environment and it isn’t always easy. I think it’s time for you to listen and learn a bit more.

  I’m further concerned about the basic nature of this article. Wikipedia is not a directory to use as a complete exposition of all possible details—particularly for a subject as focused as this (a particular composer’s art collection). Tony and GFHandel are trying to improve this article, Taksen; you would be wise to solicit all the help and advise you can as it is entirely conceivable that anything short of a truly outstanding article listing Handel’s art collection ought really be deleted from Wikipedia for being what it is: a list. Greg L (talk) 17:41, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Fresh start?

After some back and forth on their talk page and mine I would like to propose that I, and any other editors who are willing, try to work with Taksen in creating some content to expand the article that's acceptable to everyone here. From my reply to Taksen on my talk page:

Regarding the Handel edit, I appreciate the problem you've had now you've explained it. As I wrote on your talk page, we have to be careful when adding opinion to an article, especially when that opinion can be seen as negative.

For edits like the one you made, the first thing I ask myself is, "Is Thomas McGeary qualified to give an opinion on Handel's art collection?" I searched on the internet and on oxfordjournals.org found what may be a copy of the book you have (see [1]). The article says at the top: "Thomas McGeary has written extensively about the reception of Italian opera, singers, and Farinelli in early 18th-century Britain. He has completed a book-length study on the satire and politics of Italian opera in the era of Handel, Pope and Walpole". From that I believe McGeary's opinion is an expert opinion and can be included in the article.

The next question is how to write the text. We've established that it needs to avoid being a direct copy or even too close to the original, but it might also help to avoid some of the objections if it includes some positive remarks too. Would you mind if I post something on the article talk page that we can all work on?

I respectfully submit that this gives us the basis for making a fresh start. The source I've linked above is very much worth a read - there should be enough there to form the nucleus of quite an in-depth article on Handel's art collection (with the usual caveat about over-reliance on a single source). Is this acceptable? EyeSerene^talk 20:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I've read that web site, and while it appears tantalising, its use is going to be problematic. It contains many POV-type statements that sound eminently sensible (there) but will be difficult to use (here). The backbone of the article must be based on the contents of the collection, and the following is the list of artworks taken from the appendix of the web site (I've stripped everything that wasn't literally in the catalogue):

Paintings (known artists)

• S. ANDREA A Lamp-light (33)
• Two Monkeys in Friars Habits, by Angeles (20)
• Two Flower Pieces, Ardine (16)
• A Flower Piece, Ardine a Landscape (22)
• A Landscape and Cattle, after Berghem, by Old Griffier (24)
• HORIZONTI A Landscape (50)
• HORIZONTI An upright ditto (41)
• HORIZONTI Its Companion (42)
• A Town on Fire, by Ab. Van Bassan (18)
• CANNALETTI The Doge's Palace (63)
• CANTARINI Two Angels Heads in an oval, and its companion (37)
• CARRACCI Venus and Cupid, in an oval (66)
• VANDIEST a Landscape (18)
• A Landscape with Buildings, by Vandiest (13)
• FERG A Landscape and Figures, on Copper (60)
• Its Companion (61)
• GOUPY Hagar and Ishmael (35)
• GOUPY Mucius Scaevola (58)
• GOUPY Belisarius, after Van Dyck, in Water Colours (43)
• ?GOUPY Jupiter and Leda, in Water Colours (30)
• ?GOUPY Jupiter and Danaë, its Companion (31)
• ?GOUPY Jupiter and Iö, in Water Colours (47)
• ?GOUPY Jupiter and Ixion, its Companion (48)
• VANGOEN a small Landscape (20)
• A Landscape and Cattle, after Berghem, by Old Griffier (24)
• HONDIUS ditto with Vulcan's Forge (45)
• HONDIUS A Hunting Piece (49)
• a Landscape, the style of Housman (14)
• LUCATELLI A Landscape (62)
• MICHAU An upright Landscape (44)
• Narcissus in a Landscape, Fr. Mola (21)
• Mompert A Landscape (32)
• A small Landscape, by Mompert (13)
• 1 ditto by Montingo (16)
• A Dutch Conversation, the Style of Ostade (14)
• PANINI A large Piece of Architecture and Ruins, after (54)
• PARROCELL A Landscape with a bridge, and the finding of Moses (36)
• PELLEGRINI Two History Pieces (15)
• PELLEGRINI Sampson and Dalilah (26)
• POELENBURGH Bacchus and Ariadne (64)
• PERCELLES a Sea Piece (13)
• PERCELLES A fresh Gale, Percelles, a Calm, and 2 others (17)
• N. POUSSIN A Landscape (40)
• N. POUSSIN The Siege of Troy (55)
• REMBRANDT A Head, the Stile of (27)
• M. RICCI ditto and Buildings, in Water Colours (51)
• M. RICCI Two ditto 52)
• M. RICCI Two ditto, small (53)
• SEB. RICCI Venus and Adonis (65)
• a ditto by Sol. Ruysdael (24)
• ANDREA DEL SARTO Venus with her Attendants (59)
• ROWLAND SAVORY A Landscape (46)
• SERVANDONI A Piece of Ruins (25)
• SERVANDONI A large Piece of Ruins and Figures (67)
• Two Door Pieces, after Servandoni, and 2 others (12)
• SWANEVELT A Landscape (38)
• D. TENIERS A Conversation of Boors (19)
• TILLEMANS Two Battle Pieces (56)
• TITIAN a Man playing on a German Flute, Stile of (21)
• WATTEAU A Conversation (28)
• WATTEAU Its Companion (29)
• WOOTON A Sun-set (39)

Paintings (artist not given or uncertain)

• Jupiter and Leda, in Water Colours (30)
• Jupiter and Danaë, its Companion (31)
• Jupiter and Iö, in Water Colours (47)
• Jupiter and Ixion, its Companion (48)
• The Rape of Proserpine (34)
• a Sea Piece (13)
• 2 Heads in one Picture (18)
• Two Landscapes (23)
• 2 Portraits (14)

Prints

• Eight of the Planets, by N. Dorigny (1)
• The Flight into Egypt, by Solimene, and 8 others (2)
• Seven Prints of the Angles [sic] and Crucifixion, by N. Dorigny (3)
• Eight Landscapes, by N. Poussin (4)
• Six Sea Pieces, by Mr. Scott and Mr. Lambert (5)
• Four Landscapes, by Goupy, after Poussin, &c. (6)
• Four Views of Malta, and 3 others by Dorigny (7)
• Eight Landscapes, by Goupy, after Sal. Rosa (8)
• Rubens Stag-hunting, by ditto [Goupy], and 5 others (9)

The 1760 sale catalogue was published in 1985, but it would be wonderful to get a copy of the original catalogue. If a copy of the original could be obtained for use as a reference, I guess the above lists could be reproduced in the article (being from a 251-year-old publication)?  GFHandel.   21:39, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is a library search match for the catalogue: http://arcade.nyarc.org:80/record=b417885~S6.  GFHandel.   19:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

That's some impressive research :) I agree that the article must be about Handel's collection and I take your point about avoiding it being little more than a list. It seems to me that one approach would be to discuss his collection with a few pertinent and notable examples of various genres, perhaps also examining any link between his music and artwork. The former is pretty much a factual exercise; the latter will involve reproducing opinion - which is where I think the oxfordjournals.org article may come in. It is indeed personal opinion (and therefore POV), but then so is pretty much every source that offers more than just a bare statement of fact. However, that shouldn't prevent us using it as long as it's made clear that we're reflecting the source's opinion; to me NPOV isn't so much about the source itself but about how we present what that source is saying (ie WP:UNDUE etc). As I wrote to Taksen, the main question I ask myself is if the source is qualified to offer an opinion at all. If the answer appears to be "yes", there should be some way of including it in an NPOV way.

Following up the article, there are two more on the site that may be useful. I'm sure you've already seen them, but the links are:

• Thomas McGeary: Handel as art collector: art, connoisseurship and taste in Hanoverian Britain
• Ilias Chrissochoidis: Handel, Hogarth, Goupy: artistic intersections in early Georgian England
• David Hunter: Bridging the gap: the patrons-in-common of Purcell and Handel

Your thoughts? EyeSerene^talk 12:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree, and thanks for all those links—I will study them more carefully. I contacted the library and they have committed to mailing me a physical copy of the sale catalogue. I think there is quite an interesting article in the making here.  GFHandel.   20:00, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

A general caution: attributions in C18 sale catalogues would not stand up to criticism today. They need to be taken with a grain of salt.--Wetman (talk) 20:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

The PROD tag was added today, however I'm against the deletion of this article. I've obtained a copy of the sale catalogue and will transfer the contents into a table in the article soon. The information about Handel's art collection and its sale (currently above on this talk page) provides both a rare glimpse into another aspect of the artistic nature of one of the great composers, and to the auction process in the 18th century. I will work on this over the next couple of weeks.  GFHandel.   20:27, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Links

It is astonishing to notice litteraly all the internal links I put in have disappeared. Who are Vangoen and Percelles? Shouldn't the reader be informed? As you don't use the possibility of linking, I must point Wikipedia or you are biking backwards. Taksen (talk) 21:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Which part of: this article was about to be deleted so some serious rebuilding work had to be made, don't you understand? Amongst many other tasks I do, I managed to get this article to the point where it will no longer be considered for deletion. No one is stopping you from adding links to the current state of the article, so please desist with the mock histrionics. If you do add links, please bear in mind: over-linking, repeated links, and links that don't deepen the understanding of the article (and which only serve to distract from the higher value links).

As an aside, could you please not post a new topic (e.g. this one about linking) under a previous section heading (e.g. "Proposed deletion")? I've created a "Links" section for you, however it would be better if you learnt how to adhere to the basics that most other Wikipedians somehow manage to grasp. How are you going with reading the policies and guidelines that make WP a more enjoyable place to be for all editors and readers?

Just a note: "I must point Wikipedia or you are biking backwards" is a collection of English words to which I can attribute no coherent meaning.

 GFHandel.   22:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I have to ascertain Google Translate is not very satisfying and you are sailing backwards.Taksen (talk) 23:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah, that's much better. :-(

 GFHandel.   00:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)