Talk:Forever (Code Orange album)

Industrial

There is NO sources claiming this album is industrial, because it's not. There is a source that calls it "industrial hardcore", referring to it's unique combination of industrial with metalcore, but that does not make it industrial. On the wiki, the term industrial is reserved specifically bands that belong the original style of industrial music, where post-industrial bands are tagged with the appropriate style when one exists. While sources do say this album includes elements of industrial, I do not believe any industrial style is prominent enough to merits inclusion as a genre as opposed to just a mention in the style section, but if an industrial genre should be included it should not be industrial, as this is a rock album, not an electronic album. The obvious choices would be either industrial rock or industrial metal. Other bands such as Lard have blended hardcore punk with industrial before, and they were labled with industrial rock and metal, not industrial (yes, industrial is linked on the page, but not as the genres for the individual albums), so I believe precedence should be maintained and this should be labeled as industrial metal at most, not industrial.

Ganondox (talk) 12:07, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

I can't seem to find any sources directly calling the album industrial metal, and that itself does seem far fetched because it's a hardcore album, not a metal album, despite some sources referring its industrial metal "vide". My original edit was to have "industrial hardcore" in the infobox, because that's was sources most commonly refer to, but link to industrial rock because hardcore is a style of rock music, I believe that would be most apt, but it was @Mashaunix: and @Statik N: who were apart of the prior edits and I think would be useful in this discussion. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

It's a metalcore album, not pure hardcore. That gives it enough metal influence to qualify as industrial, the only real argument for it not being industrial metal is that it's just a different style of music. A good deal of industrial metal has more to do with punk than metal, not just Lard, but also bands like Killing Joke, so it's a moot point.

Saying it's industrial metal because it has an industrial metal vibe is as well founded as saying it's industrial just because it elements of industrial. It's really not industrial anything, it's just metalcore with some industrial elements along with countless other influences, but industrial metal is much more appropriate than industrial as a label.

I'd be fine if it linked to industrial as long as the text said industrial hardcore, I've seen that convention used for other fusions that don't merit their own page. I just don't like seeing industrial listed without clarification as someone might get confused by going to page. Even just industrial rock would be better. Ganondox (talk) 06:58, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

This is a minor issue. In my opinion, the fact that industrial is in the infobox TOGETHER WITH metalcore and hardcore is enough to make it clear that this is not a classic/old-school industrial album. I'm not a fan of the industrial VS post-industrial distinction and won't be until I see multiple respected sources clarifying it – by the same token we should be calling hardcore a type of "post-punk" because it is different from initial punk. But if you prefer putting "industrial hardcore" or "industrial metal" in the infobox, go for it, I don't see what difference it makes.--MASHAUNIX 19:24, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Having both in the infobox is not enough, as it implies it includes songs that fall under hardcore punk and songs that fall under industrial, not that it blends the two styles. Maybe it would be understandable if more appropriate industrial fusions weren't their own genres, but this doesn't fit with other bands that are labeled as just industrial, it fits better with industrial rock or industrial metal, being a rock/metal album. Regarding the post-industrial thing, no one calls hardcore post-punk, but the term post-industrial is used. I think the main reason the wiki mains that distinction is because there is because the style of early industrial music is referred to exclusively as industrial, while the style of early punk rock can be clarified just by calling it punk rock, and hardcore punk by calling it hardcore punk. Ganondox (talk) 06:58, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

So how would you feel about "industrial hardcore" but linking to industrial rock, because right now that's the only rock genre which is mixed with industrial that is actually sourced? Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:57, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, I'll go ahead and make the change. Ganondox (talk) 06:59, 8 January 2019 (UTC)