Talk:Fight the New Drug/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Contested deletion

I've never seen the deleted version of the article (so this literally cannot be a repost of deleted material), but if it were purely POV-pushing, my article would certainly not meet G4. Much of it is negative so it has to be substantially different from what was deleted. feminist (talk) 07:43, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Praxidicae it appears POV pushing is still happening on this page. I see that was why you initially nominated it for deletion, and the deletion discussion that happened less than two months ago seems to still stand. This org is not notable and does not meet requirements. And the POV pushing is clear in the edit battle happenings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Fight_the_New_Drug Wikibhw (talk) 02:16, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

And I have submitted this article for speedy deletion, which was done, then reexamined and overturned. Tgeorgescu (talk) 05:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Hiding Mormon connection

@Wikibhw: please explain how the text you removed in this edit is not supported by the sources. Here are the relevant quotes:

The group denies a formal affiliation with the Mormon church, though as journalist Samantha Allen notes, its founders are all Mormon,
— https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/04/a-crisis-of-education/478206/

Fight the New Drug was launched in 2009 by Clay Olsen, a marketing specialist and Brigham Young University graduate.
— https://www.dailydot.com/irl/fight-the-new-drug-porn-addiction/

The text you removed is as follows:

Although the group officially denies a connection with the LDS Church, it was founded by a team of Mormons, including leader Clay Olsen, a marketing specialist and Brigham Young University graduate.

I do not understand your objection. – bradv🍁 01:24, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing to validate that Clay Olsen was a graduate of BYU—not in this source, or anywhere on the internet. It seems to be that the grounds for making a claim this organization is affiliated with a religion lie in a claim that the founder attended a religious university—this is not validated. If the claim that this organization is affiliated with a religion is based on an opinion piece that ends with the line "And although the Mormon Church is not officially involved in the FTDN campaign"... this appears to be pushing for POV that is against the organization, and does not remain neutral. I'm not here to argue for or against this group, but it seems to me this information pushes a bias against it.Wikibhw (talk) 01:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikibhw, we're not advocating a position, we're simply reporting what reliable sources say. In this case, quite accurately. – bradv🍁 01:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Bradv, please provide a reliable source validating that Clay Olsen attended or graduated from BYU—I can not find one anywhere on the internet. Please validate how an opinion piece is a reliable source for the other claims made if they push POV? Wikibhw (talk) 01:37, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikibhw, it's sourced to the Daily Dot, which I just quoted above. – bradv🍁 01:40, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Bradv, This appears to be an inaccurate statement in this article—and the article itself clearly pushes a POV (is an opinion piece). I can not find another source that validates this claim being made by an opinion piece. Olsen's linkedin account also don't indicate that he attended BYU. https://www.linkedin.com/in/clayolsen Wikibhw (talk) 01:46, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Bradv, Additionally, a bit of searching on the internet also lead me the this. This organization's executive director https://fightthenewdrug.org/our-team/ attended Westminster College http://utahtheatrebloggers.com/13714/westminsters-great-ensemble-makes-a-great-noises-off (a private, liberal arts college). Is her college background relevant somehow to this page? I don't think so. It seems that claims are being made by opinion pieces to further an agenda. I don't know about you... but this does not feel (at all) like a "neutral" page. Wikibhw (talk) 01:52, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Wikibhw, I take your point that Olsen may not have attended BYU. I tend to believe reliable sources over LinkedIn, but in this case it's not terribly important. What we didn't need to do was remove the entire sentence just because you took issue with the last few words, so I've reworded it and added an additional source. – bradv🍁 04:33, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Bradv, reliable sources page quote: "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact. Human interest reporting is generally not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy (see junk food news)." Wikibhw (talk) 01:38, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

That the founders are all Mormons is the secret of Polichinelle. There is no way we would stop from disclosing this objective fact. I understand they want to look secular, but Christians have to tell the truth. Also, how do you know that the source is wrong about attending that university? What other WP:RS could you WP:CITE in order for us to WP:VERify such fact? We are not going to believe any editor on their word of honor. Tgeorgescu (talk) 02:45, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Recovering Mormons

I don't know what "recovering Mormons" is supposed to mean. Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:09, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Sacred cow

@Haplotypology: You should know that in articles like this the sacred cow is WP:ARBPS. So, thread very cautiously when removing claims like pseudoscience. Tgeorgescu (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2020 (UTC)