Talk:Famine Song

"Famine" song

Yes this song mentions the famine but it isn't actually "about" the famine, the media hype thing up to no end, even the name "Famine song" was coined by the media not by Rangers or Celtic fans. In reality it is sung mocking the Celtic fans and their pro-Irish chants, where they sing of Ireland as "home". The only reference to the famine is the question that if Celtic fans love Ireland so much and constantly sing of going back "home" why don't they? The famine would be one such reason, but as that is over there is now nothing stopping them. It is not a demand to go home, merely a mocking suggestion. I am not a Celtic or Rangers fan myself but would just like to set the record straight on this. I added it to the main article but it kept getting reverted, disgruntled attention-seeking Celtic fans no doubt... Hopefully people will read this and see the truth. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.209.10 (talk) 00:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

The chorus replaces the original words "I feel so broke up / I wanna go home" with "The famine's over now / Why don't you go home". "It is not a demand to go home, merely a mocking suggestion." Merely a mocking suggestion! Is that all, would you cop yourself on and stop the stupid nonsense. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:30, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

"This user is a member of WikiProject Irish Republicanism." says it all really... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.209.10 (talk) 14:22, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

So what if I am? Cop yourself on. --Domer48_'fenian' 15:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It is misleading to speak of a "chorus". All that is ever sung by fans at matches is what some people refer to as the "chorus" - in fact that's the whole chant. Other words were added to that and put on the internet but that is of no real significance - one could add bits to any chant and stick it on the internet. BBO (talk) 13:43, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

As can any Rangers fan who then thinks he has a fanzine. Such a source would only be reliable for the person writing who cannot speak for any other fans, and even if such a source was a reliable source (which it isn't) it would be undue weight including their opinion. O Fenian (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks O Fenian, I was in the middle of typing a responce, but you got to it before me. Yours was a lot milder. --Domer48_'fenian' 14:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is just one reference to the famine song. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2009/05/16/findlay-famine-song-is-free-speech-86908-21363426/. There are plenty more out there if needed. Jack forbes (talk) 14:15, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It is not just the so-called. Another problem is the addition of "All that has ever been sung by Rangers fans at matches is a replacement of the chorus of "Sloop John B", namely "I feel so broke up / I wanna go home", with "The famine's over / Why don't you go home" although other lyrics have been added to that and posted on the internet. Those Rangers fans who sing the song regard it as mockery of Celtic fans' maudlin and misinformed songs, banners, etc." referenced by this fanzine which in addition to not being a reliable source does not even source the sentences being added. O Fenian (talk) 14:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

A fanzine is a good source for fans' views. However I have replaced it with a public statement issued by a fans' organisation which has had official recognition from the football club. This provides some balance to the article. Hopefully no-one is against that. BBO (talk) 09:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I am against you putting what the source does not say, so I have changed it to what the source does say. O Fenian (talk) 23:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

"Racist"?

First of peoples of Irish descent in GB are not a different "race" -If not racist, the song is certainly xenophbic (the term "racist" is generally used interchangeably or instead of "xenophobic" in everyday English)-, all are part of the same caucasian race. Second of all this song doesn't even criticise all peoples of Irish descent in Great Britain. It seems to be an attack on non conforming left wing republican bigots who support Celtic FC -Despite making no reference to conformity, politics or Celtic FC, whilst openly calling on those of Irish descent in Scotland (and, ironically, Northern Ireland) to "go home"? I think your letting a hate of a football club cloud your poor(-ly)(constructed) argument.- and go on and on with all the persecution complex nonsense, singing republican songs. Celtic FC fans are not a "race", they're not even representative of most (14 million) people of Irish descent in Britain. - Yorkshirian (talk) 04:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC) -This is just laughable nonsense.-

It's also worth noting that that no Judges ruled on the Famine Song. They ruled on the conduct of a drunken and disorderly fan who was repeatedly told not to sing certain songs, of which the Famine Song was only one. The song itself was not on trial. William Walls was and it was he who was found guilty, not the song.

Both sources say they did. The basis of the appeal was that the expression was not racist but a protected expression of political opinion under the European Convention on Human Rights. O Fenian (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Famine Song was on trial - see original decision http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/opinions/2009HCJAC59.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randomwaffle (talk • contribs) 22:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

"Edit warring"? Did you actually read the last diff?[1]Cptnono (talk) 19:53, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

So to explain, that one case does not deserve prominence while the rebuttal receives zero. It is a noteworthy controversy but there have been others who have called it racist. SO "Scottish authorities consider it/have called it" or even "It is often considered racist" with a line saying that it is a disputed assertion is completely inline with LEAD and NPOV.Cptnono (talk) 20:01, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of fringe minority in the lead is not needed, I see you have failed to answer the question in the section below. Many opinions are left out of the lead, prominent opinions from prominent people published in reliable sources no less. I do not see why we need to include fringe opinions from a self-published source there when more weighty opinions are excluded. I do not particularly consider someone who completely whitewashes the lead in the first place to be an expert on neutral point-of-view either. The song's sole claim to notability is its bigotry. O Fenian (talk) 20:05, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

And one individual incident does not deserve prominence. I completely agree that it being considered bigoted deserves weight. Not giving some balance is completely inappropriate, though. I don't care how small or how it is done but something needs to be in or else it smacks of POV. Would you mind considering options instead of being dismissive of the possibility? As I said in my edit summary, it should be easy enough to come to a solution. The only reason I reverted you the first time was because I could not think of any way of doing it well. If you can think of a better way (because as it is now is not OK) I am totally on board with it.Cptnono (talk) 20:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I am going to make a change if you do not respond.Cptnono (talk) 11:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The only coverage this song receives in reliable sources is due to the bigotry and court cases, I do not see how any of that can be left out. O Fenian (talk) 11:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Please reread my comments.Cptnono (talk) 21:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Denials of bigotry

Which reliable secondary sources have published the denial put forward by a self-published source that justifies its inclusion in the lead? O Fenian (talk) 19:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Why did you open up a separate discussion when it is ongoing above? Primary sources are very close to an event. This is an acceptable use of primary. Of course, I would be willing to find a secondary. I have to go off to work for a few hours, though. If you would make an effort to also look for a source and would keep the options open then we might be able to both agree on how to handle this. Reasonable enough?Cptnono (talk) 20:14, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above has nothing to do with whether the denial needs to be in the lead. A bunch of people who sing a bigoted song saying "no we're not bigots" on their own website may need to be in the article itself, but it is not a significant enough viewpoint for the lead. I note the link is dead too. O Fenian (talk) 21:28, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Well I am addressing both here for ease. The line currently in the lead wasn't even in the body until I moved it there. So relying on WP:LEAD seems comical to me. Also, you saw the dead link, right? You argued against it so I assume you did. Not all sources need to be online and if you verified a source it is inappropriate to call for its removal unless it is not possible to not find an offline version. Regardless, this is an easy fix. :

People call it racist, bigoted, and offensive. We should mention that in the lead. But here is secondary RS that argues against that assertion. DO you want more? If you haven't even attempted I will pull more but I hope you are at least trying to come to a solution. What about this? The first few hits on a google news archive search. C'mon.Cptnono (talk) 05:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Also, the prominence issue of that one case needs to be addressed. Can you think of a line that encompasses more then just that case?Cptnono (talk) 05:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

WTF? Not only is the one case receiving prominence but ZERO rebuttal smacks of POV. I took this to the NPOV noticeboard.Cptnono (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

The lead is sticking to facts, not opinions. The facts are that judges have ruled the song is racist, and that someone has been convicted. Opinions such as many politicans and organisations saying it is racist are better placed in the main body only, as are minority fringe views. O Fenian (talk) 09:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Lyrics

I've had a look at the Wikiproject Songs and I think it may be best if we add the lyrics to show what the controversy is. After all there are 2 versions of it; the chant used at football matches and there's one with verses like a normal song. I think under fair use we could use the 1st verse of one and the chant one I doubt has copyright so we could use it anyway. We seem to have a choice of the chant:

• "Why don't you go home, Why don't you go home, The Famine's over, Why don't you go home?" [2]
  

Or there's also the 1st verse of the song;

• "I often wonder where they would have been, If we hadn't of taken them in, We fed them and washed them, Thousands in Glasgow alone, From Ireland they came, Caused us nothing but trouble and shame, Well now the Famines over, Why don't they go home?" [3]
  

I'm only bringing it up in that I think it might make the page better, I will also say I don't agree with the words but I do believe in free speech. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 11:32, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. O Fenian (talk) 09:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of the guidelines, it seems complete stupidity to describe lyrics that aren't there. The article is saying "the lyrics are racist", yet the reader is unable to actually see the offending lyrics. It's important to have the words here, to show why this song is so disgusting. Quindie 20:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quindie (talk • contribs)

Why is it so important to have them in the article twice? O Fenian (talk) 09:16, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Well we have to call it racist in the lead but not say the response of it being a goof to some people anywhere in the body. That is the way it is. But there is a sentence (since I actually tried to explain the lead when no one else did) discussing the lines brought up by C of E.

The song might be too long to plop in here, but we can always link to a video from RS or even use one of the fun templates.

That is assuming, of course, we are actually here to expand the readers knowledge instead of trying to prove a point to him or her.Cptnono (talk) 09:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

So you have not noticed the lyrics are already in the article either? O Fenian (talk) 09:25, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

The praties they grow small

Shouldn't this be first about the traditional Famine Song, aka "The Praties They Grow Small" [4], which has been recorded by a variety of significant artists incl. Bob Dylan and Forest, rather than this soccer chant? - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 16:39, 25 January 2011 (UTC)