Talk:Expedition 16

Changes

Changed the term 'astronaut' to space flight participant as per NASA criteria...

http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-16/html/jsc2007e038132.html

and ISS fan club website release...

http://www.issfanclub.com/node/6573

I would prefer the term cosmonaut, as the Russians have acknowledged him as one as per...

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/10/4/nation/19072942&sec=nation Babyrina2 06:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC))

Flag use

Per the Manual of Style on flag icon use, flags should be used sparingly, and not used in the article prose. Flags should also not emphasize nationality without a good reason, "Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things." NASA is American, and it is a given that NASA astronauts represent America. However, when the astronauts on missions are representing countries other than NASA, it is appropriate to specify this, although the MOS would still discourage the use of the flag icon. The icons are quite distracting when 6/8 people listed have US flags next to them. Note that this has nothing to do with national pride, or with national identity, but simply used sparingly to help a reader, and not to decorate. To this end, USA astronauts need not have the flag icon next to them, as it is obvious they represent America by being with NASA. This is a relatively new guideline, so many people may not be familiar with it, so this is why I'm bringing the issue here for discussion. I've also placed this discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Human Spaceflight, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Space missions, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Space exploration. Since none of these project talk pages are particularly active, I appreciate anyone's imput or ideas, but I've removed the {{USA}} flag icons from the most recent missions, to conform with the Manual of Style, and the articles are much less distracting without them. Ariel♥Gold 13:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. After you removed the flags, NASA crew members were marked neither NASA nor USA, so I restored the nationality. I notice that you did not remove the equally distracting Russian flags from this international expedition. When I did that, the Belgian and French flags were even more distracting, as were the nationality wikilinks, so I left only the USA, Russia and ESA wikilinks. Comments? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 19:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, my personal preference would be to simply identify the astronauts by agency, via Wikilinks, NASA, RSA, ESA, JAXA, CSA, etc. I too, find the flags highly distracting, and really out of place in the middle of article prose, which the WP:FLAG Manual of Style would tend to support. However, it has been done for so long, that I'm not sure how it will be met, and of course I wouldn't edit-war over it. Another editor brought up the point that as ISS missions are generally equally represented, all the flags should be displayed, but I'd again say this is just so visually distracting, it would be best to simply identify the agency, and if necessary, follow it in parentheses with the country, such as for STS-120, Paolo Nespoli - ESA (Italy), and for Expeditions, unless the Astronaut on board represents another agency besides RSA or NASA, the country of origin is not relevant. But, for example, when Léopold Eyharts joins, he'll be representing ESA, so his country of origin should be identified. So for the current crew, I'd suggest we replace (USA) with ([[NASA]]), and (Russia) with ([[Russian Federal Space Agency|RSA]]). Just my opinion, though. :o) Ariel♥Gold 20:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

This proposal makes a lot of sense: consistently using a text wikilink to the appropriate space agency conveys just the right amount of information in this context. (sdsds - talk) 22:05, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Nationality of crew members

Does it make sense to mention the nationalities of some Expedition members while not mentioning the nationality of others? Since ESA is a space agency which has astronauts of several nationalities, should only ESA crew members have their nationalities mentioned? (sdsds - talk) 22:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a reasonable thing to do. ESA is the only agency that has astronauts from a variety of countries, and it would certainly be useful information in the context of the articles in question (for instance, with STS-120, Nespoli was selected for the flight specifically to represent Italy, who built Harmony, thus, his nationality as an Italian is tie-in to the article's content and context). Naturally, JAXA, CSA, RSA, and NASA need no such mentions, but I do think it appropriate for ESA. Ariel♥Gold 22:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I would really like to hear from some of the European contributors on this topic. Does it help or hurt the neutrality of the article's point of view to mention the nationalities of only the European crew members? Specifically as regards Nespoli flying on STS-120, isn't this part of the ISS contractual agreement with the Italian Space Agency, not the agreement with the ESA? Italy "paid" for his flight by building Harmony and other ISS components. (sdsds - talk) 23:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess there are two ways to look at it, that it adds to the clarity to explain which country the astronaut is representing for ESA, and helpful. Or, that it may be unnecessary to mention the country, as all astronauts do the same job, regardless of where they are from. I'd be happy to hear from the folks in Europe on this topic, as well. Ariel♥Gold 23:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I often read these articles to see the nationalities of the crews. I am not that interested to see JAXA, RSA, NASA, ESA - and perhaps other casual readers are like me (perhaps not.) Why not just list the nationality of all crew members? Thats my 2 euro cents, anyway. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 00:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I too like consistency. I also am concerned that inconsistencies might somehow allow content to creep in that introduces systemic bias and thus is counter to WP:NPOV. And certainly I think we all want the article to provide the information that readers want to get! (sdsds - talk) 00:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, while I can understand wanting to see nationalities, they are available on the astronaut's articles. Should nationality matter for the mission itself? That would seem to be the question, to include the nationalities seems to place undue emphasis on something that is ultimately not relevant to the mission article. I think in some cases, what the reader wants may not be in line with the reason for the article, while they may want to come here to read about what country someone is from, in this case, at least, I don't think it is relevant (but it is available via the biography link given). What space agency they represent, however, is extremely relevant, and all agencies, aside from ESA, are also the country of origin, so it still gives that information, but in a way more appropriate to the context of the article. Ariel♥Gold 08:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, be also aware that while all US current astronauts are NASA (except tourists) a lot of Russian cosmonauts are not from RSA, but from Energia, or other Russian state organizations. Regarding the nationalities, at least it matters to the ones involved. The German crewmember of STS-122, insisted a lot about his flag and his country in the interview last night on NASA TV.Hektor (talk) 06:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. I do think it is important to list the nationality of all the astronauts, especially ESA ones. Although most european astronauts are ESA astronauts, I think that 90% of the population in Europe has no idea what ESA is. Also there really isn't that strong a bond between the various European states. Especially for the last few years everyone has become increasingly nationalistic and anti-europe. So as far as I concerned the only link between ESA astronauts is that they are on a joint budget. (Nothing against ESA, great organization, that gets underpaid but thats just how it is). And although i'm not 100% sure, I think we should just list all of them in that case. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said previously, I agree, ESA astronauts should have their country they represent listed, but realize we don't have to do that with a flag, do we? WP:FLAG advises against using flags in article space. It would be just as easy to simply type (Germany) and less visually distracting. And Hektor, could you maybe clarify? I'm not sure what you mean when you say some cosmonauts represent Energia and some represent RSA; Energia is the Rocket and Space Corporation, not a Space Agency. There is only one agency that cosmonauts from Russia represent, the Russian Federal Space Agency (RSA), and RSA is responsible for launching the majority of Expedition crewmembers. I have yet to see any astronaut represent them who is not representing Russia. The majority of the astronauts are Russian, so I don't think a flag is really needed in those cases, but I agree, nationality is a different issue with the European Space Agency, since that is an agency comprised of multiple countries. Ariel♥Gold 13:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know who they represent, I was just talking about which organization they belong to. In the US - with the exception of the space tourists - all US astronauts are civil servants, NASA employess. That was not always the case, the Payload Specialist could belong to the US Industry like Charlie Walker for instance or other organizations. In Russia, you have different groups. You have a group of RSA cosmonauts. But you have also a group of Energia employees. And a few other smaller groups. The crew are formed by picking in these various groups, for instance Yurchikin is a Energia cosmonaut. Hektor (talk) 14:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay I see what you're saying. But the bottom line is they are still launched by, and represent RSA, just as US payload specialists were launched by, and represented NASA. In these cases, nationality does not seem relevant, it is there on the person's biography page, but it isn't something I think is necessary to distinguish on the Expedition articles, as it doesn't change anything about their jobs on orbit. Obviously ESA is quite different, as mentioned, since many nations participate in the European Space Agency. :o) Ariel♥Gold 14:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I note that Energia use "Leopold Eyharts (ESA, France)", and based on that I support our specifying nationality when the agency doesn't make that explicit. I agree with ArielGold about the visual distraction of the flag icon. For consistency with the other crewmembers "Léopold Eyharts (2) Flight Engineer 2 - ESA (France)" works well. (sdsds - talk) 04:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

EVA "Ban"

I removed this section from the article, because first, it was unsourced, and second, it was worded in a way that indicates this was a major issue, which it was not. In fact, it took me a good hour of digging just to get a tidbit of information about this issue, and it was in no way a "ban on EVA activities", nor was it anything that was out of the ordinary, in the life of ISS. From the ISS daily reports, here is what is said:

"During a SSATA (Space Station Airlock Test Article) chamber run on the ground this past Friday, a crew member reported the smell of smoke inside the EMU (Extravehicular Mobility Unit). The run was terminated, and the crew member extracted without incident. A mishap investigation board (MIB) was formed, and has recommended that all life support system operations (power, O2 ops, etc.) for the on-orbit EMUs be terminated until a root cause can be determined. Thus, the on-orbit EMUs are No Go. All other ops, such as suit resizing, can be performed."

This type of thing is purely precautionary, and is not a "ban" on EVAs, but simply a direction for the crew to not do maintenance on specific parts of the suit until the issues are cleared on the ground. Two days later, the ISS report stated:

"The MIB (Mishap Investigation Board) that evaluated the results from the chamber EMU inspection -- after a “smell of smoke” was noticed in a SSATA (Space Station Airlock Test Article) chamber on 11/9 -- has cleared the on-orbit suits for the normal EMU water recharge."

As such, I don't think this deserves undue weight, or even needs a mention. If every small item that happened was mentioned, the mission articles would be excessively long. Things like this happen all the time, if one cares to watch NASA TV every day, or read the ISS daily reports. Feel free to disagree if you wish, and if consensus says it deserves a mention, we could certainly add a comment, but it does not appear to be anything major, or out of the oridinary. As Mike Suffredini is so fond of saying: "Just a day in the life of ISS." :o) Ariel♥Gold 06:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I saw something about that on NSF Ariel. Let me find it... http://nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5283 and later http://nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5286 Not sure how important it is, but it might be useful. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

(Comment moved up to keep it in the same topic header) Yeah, that basically says the same thing the ISS daily summaries do. I really don't think that it is anything out of the ordinary, and really, it did not affect the EVA schedule, it wasn't a severe problem, but a precaution from the way I understand it, and was cleared two days later. It doesn't affect the increment, so I'm not really sure it needs to be mentioned. If people think it is important to mention, that certainly can be done, but I really don't think it needs undue weight, in the overall scheme of things it is really a non-issue, and appears to simply be a ground crewmember who "smelled" something, but it couldn't be verified or duplicated. Thanks for those links tho, DJ, I didn't check there, after I found the note in the DSRs. Ariel♥Gold 12:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Latest EVA-12 Charlie info: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10939&mid=216399#M216399 BTW. The Original (STS 120) EVA5, and Stage EVA 11 and 12 have been named: Alpha, Bravo and Charlie, this was done to make the "shifts" between them less confusing, with all the many documents that were out there within NASA. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a nice foto to use in this article: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-16/hires/iss016e012617.jpg --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:39, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Super awesome photo! I'll upload it to commons and add it if nobody else has. Ariel♥Gold 22:03, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

EVA4/EVA13

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/expeditions/expedition16/exp16_eva_121807.html 2 records on this EVA, its the 100th ISS spacewalk and it will set a new record for cumulative spacewalk time for a woman (previously held by Sunita). Weird btw that they also lost power on that BGA. There are some S3/S4 engineers who are gonna get a slapping :D --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

She also took Sunita's "total amount of EVAs by a woman" record apparently. It was at 4, but the lists indicate that this is Peggy's 5th. (one on Exp. 5 and 4 on Exp. 16). --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I just heard that. Nice, she'll be around 32 hours at end, which we can definitely add. Cool milestone EVA, huh DJ? Ariel♥Gold 13:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Busiest expedition so far?

I make it that Whitson and Malenchenko will each have met 26 other astronauts in space during Expedition 16 by time they land in April. Is this the correct figure and, if so, is this a record? It certainly seems to be getting busy up there. Coconino (talk) 22:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Rough landing

From what I saw on NBC Nightly News, the landing was scarier than earlier reported. It turned out that the Soyuz TMA had a malfunction that prevented the service module to separate from the recovery module, causing the spacecraft to make a heads-first re-entry. It was only after the service module has sheared-off from friction that they were able to orient the recovery module's heat sheild into position, but a little too late to avoid the balistic re-entry. I didn't make any modifications to the article because I didn't have any cited sources to make. Elwin Blaine Coldiron (talk) 01:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

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