Talk:European Water Polo Championship

Hungarian state flag

Flag in period from 1958 till 1983 is not correct. One which is this article is unofficial, check here.----László (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Medal tables missing Yugoslavia

The medal tables seem to list all of the medals of Yugoslavia under Serbia. The latter may be the inheritor in the opinion of the relevant LEN bureaucrats, but it still needs to be fixed to accurately portray the actual history (as evidenced by the timeline in fact). --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Yugoslavia/Serbia

This article currently lists all Yugoslav medals under a Serbian heading, but separates out separate Croatian and Montenegrin medals. The user who has been pushing such a point referred to this document, but I cannot find any reference in it that confirms that it is appropriate.

I propose that we split the list out so that SRB and YUG are treated separately. Kahastok talk 11:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Your propose is denied , Serbia is official successor of all Yugoslav medals , like Russia is for Soviet Union, just how it should be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.221.175.150 (talk) 16:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

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Serbia Yugoslavia

The Serbian team cannot arbitrarily take over the records of the former Yugoslavia teams. A note can be established to show the progression of teams, but we cannot say "Serbia" won a tournament when Yugoslavia did. @User:DusanSilniVujovic and @User:Pelmeen10 Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

FINA considers Serbia to be the inheritor of the records of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro. Looked page 14, 15 I put fusnote for that on the national Serbian water polo team and Russian to, but Pelmeer10 change that. You can't separetate medals because they belong to Serbia. Read this, or just translate. This is from Croation OC news. They say that all medals before 1990 belong to Serbia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DusanSilniVujovic (talk • contribs) 23:22, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. However, you are merging Yugoslavia and Serbia into just Serbia that is incorrect. When Yugoslavia won, it was not known as Serbia and the distinction needs to be made. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 01:16, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

LEN from 2024 European championship recognized Serbia as inheritor of the records of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.129 (talk) 15:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

This link didn't say that Serbia is the sole inheritor of records of Yugoslavia. This is the text: "Just as in the case of Croatia and Montenegro, Serbian water polo players made their contribution to the great victories and winning trophies of the team under the name SFR Yugoslavia, until 1991 and dissolution of that country... Gold in Perth was also the last medal which was jointly won by Serbian, Croatian and Montenegrin water polo players under the name of Yugoslavia..." The similar words were written about Croatia - "The tradition of water polo, as well as the history of the success of this sport in Croatia, is much longer than the state’s independence. Therefore, it is impossible not to mention the role of Croatian players, coaches and clubs in water polo successes even before the independence of Croatia. In all the trophies and medals of the national team of the former Yugoslavia, players and coaches from Croatia played a truly key role, and to single out from that period (until 1991.) - 3 Olympic golds and 4 silvers, as well as 2 world championship titles and 2 bronzes, etc." In other words, I don't understand why Serbia should be sole interitor of all Yugoslavia medals while Croatia and Montenegro should not. Hyperion82 (talk) 18:58, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I preper a really huge text to explain why all medals and results belong to Serbia. But, before that read this one:

"This was the Serbs’ 8th gold medal, and the 7th in the last nine editions since 2001. Croatia got rid of its demons and clinched the bronze medal after four lost matches played for the third place in the past." - from LEN official source

[1]https://swimswam.com/serbia-tops-spain-in-shootout-for-4th-straight-water-polo-crown/ 79.140.150.129 (talk) 21:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. However, swimswam.com is not official LEN source. They are other websites which are more focused on waterpolo. See - "Olympic champion Serbia, the five-time European gold medalist, finished 9th in Split 15 months ago, and because of that, it will start the tournament from Division 1..." (from https://total-waterpolo.com/european-mens-championships-many-big-stars-are-back-on-scene-many-favorites-target-medals/ ). Or this information from popular sport website - "Serbia beat Spanish hosts in penalty shoot-out to win fifth European Water Polo title" (from https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1068090/serbia-beat-spanish-hosts-in-penalty-shoot-out-to-win-fifth-european-water-polo-title ). Hyperion82 (talk) 23:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

And, finally, this is the list of medalists and medal table from the official site of the previous 2022 European Water Polo Championships created by LEN. Since you are prefers to refering to LEN's official information, it's hard to argue with this - https://split2022.len.eu/svi-osvajaci-europskih-medalja-na-muskom-turniru/ Hyperion82 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

U are welcome for links, but first, we must separate official from unofficial and unverified sources. U put some unofficijal source, a will give you some explanation:

• - This text is from official LEN source (see a text under the picture) https://swimswam.com/serbia-tops-spain-in-shootout-for-4th-straight-water-polo-crown/ Some other guys (BudvaMontenegro) put this link many years ago https://www2.len.eu/?p=12675 but now this is death link. Anyway this is a same text here (8th gold medal for Serbia)
• - This is from FINA and LEN official PDF document https://web.archive.org/web/20150701102849/http://www.fina.org/project/docs/histoFina/HistoFINA_VIII.pdf
• - about your dilema (" I don't understand why Serbia should be sole interitor of all Yugoslavia medals while Croatia and Montenegro should not. ") read this text with translate. Mateša is the first man of the Croatian Olympic Committee. In the title he says: All medals until 1988 belong to Serbia https://www.jutarnji.hr/vijesti/hrvatska/matesa-sve-olimpijske-medalje-do-1988.-godine-pripadaju-srbiji-i-tu-nema-pomoci-1542930 and this is a biggest portal in Croatia (jutarnji.hr)
• - This is official site od Serbia national water polo team https://www.waterpoloserbia.org/index.php?id=454

Table with all flags and medals (like in ice hockey) is maximum correct for Serbia and Russia too.

@Боки:, @Ryanjo:, @Zhix:, @Vanjagenije: JohnWickChapter4 (talk) 14:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Once again, it was you who called the use official sources of information. Well, European Water Polo Championship is the competition organized by LEN (neither by FINA nor by any national federation nor by any national Olympic Committee). And this is only medal table which I found at LEN's official website - https://split2022.len.eu/svi-osvajaci-europskih-medalja-na-muskom-turniru/ More importnat, this is not some dead link which is impossible to found, this is official website of the European Water Polo Championship which was created by LEN just 1.5 years ago. If you will find link to the newest Web page with such medal table at LEN's official sources, you can bring it here for further discussion. You used analogy with medal tables published at Wikipages about ice hockey international competitions. Well, the difference is that International Ice Hockey Federation is very clear about this matter - https://www.iihf.com/en/medalists?selectedTournamentTypeID=3&gender=men There is no uncertain or confusing information about this matter at IIHF's official sources Hyperion82 (talk) 20:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@JohnWickChapter4 Why was I tagged on this ? This is resolved by the fact of what type of source you use. Боки ^{Write to me!} 21:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

See also LEN's official document which was published to the start of the 2020 European Water Polo Championships which clearly separates Serbia, Serbia & Montenegro and Yugoslavia as well as USSR and Russia at the medal table of the European Championships (page 61, "4.1 Men's Medal Table" - https://web.archive.org/web/20220302223107/https://www2.len.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/LEN_euro_wp_champ_19.final_sml.pdf ). Hyperion82 (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, this documents obvious are copy from wikipedia medal table. But what about 2024. presentation of Serbia on LEN site? https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-c-division-2/ all Yugoslavia history is put under Serbia national team. JohnWickChapter4 (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, if 2020' & 2022' medal tables were copied from Wikipedia to LEN's official websites, it means that LEN doesn't see anything wrong in these tables. About presentation of post-Yugoslavian and post-Soviet national teams for 2024 European Championships - these articles tells about tradition and history of developing of water polo in these countries (which existed long before these above-mentioning countries gained their independence and formed their own national teams), but not about legacy and inheriting of medals of the defunct countries.

I can quote the text again - "Just as in the case of Croatia and Montenegro, Serbian water polo players made their contribution to the great victories and winning trophies of the team under the name SFR Yugoslavia, until 1991 and dissolution of that country... Gold in Perth was also the last medal which was jointly won by Serbian, Croatian and Montenegrin water polo players under the name of Yugoslavia..." (https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-c-division-2/ )

The similar words were written about Croatia - "The tradition of water polo, as well as the history of the success of this sport in Croatia, is much longer than the state’s independence. Therefore, it is impossible not to mention the role of Croatian players, coaches and clubs in water polo successes even before the independence of Croatia. In all the trophies and medals of the national team of the former Yugoslavia, players and coaches from Croatia played a truly key role, and to single out from that period (until 1991.) - 3 Olympic golds and 4 silvers, as well as 2 world championship titles and 2 bronzes, etc."' (https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-a-division-1/ )

There are similar words about Montenegro - "A small country in the south of the Adriatic, independent since 2006, but with a very long and rich history and tradition of water polo that goes back a century... In the era when there was a country called Yugoslavia, Montenegrin water polo players also contributed to the great international successes of that country in water polo. (https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-a-division-1/ )

And, finally, there are similar words about Georgia - "Water polo has a history and tradition in Georgia. During the time when that country was part of the Soviet Union, which was an extremely influential and strong water polo team, some of the best players were Georgians. From Mihail Giorgadze to especially Georgi Mshvenieradze, who in his time was one of the best players in the world. After all, they even won the title of European Champion three times in a row (1983, 1985 and 1987). Of course, under the flag of the then USSR. (https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-b-division-1/ ) Hyperion82 (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In the 21st century, Serbia won as many as 26 gold medals! At the European championships, Serbia (then still under the name of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) appeared for the first time in Seville in 1997. At these competitions, they won as many as even 7 championship titles (Budapest 2001., Kranj 2003., Belgrade 2006., Eindhoven 2012., Budapest 2014., Belgrade 2016. and Barcelona 2018.). so in this text all medals after Yugoslavia break-up (1991.) belong to Serbia. However in 2006. Montenegro start qualification in B division and Serbia, as the successor of the state of Serbia and Montenegro, played at the European Championship. Also, what about so many links I sent here (Mateša, Water polo site by Serbia, FINA, etc)? My suggestion is to make another table in which it will be explained how and why the medals were joined JohnWickChapter4 (talk) 23:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

As I wrote, LEN is the only organization who authorised to organize European Championships so information from its official websites should have priority in this issue. About the other links: FINA report is quite confusing (https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2021/02/20/232cd7f6-8cd2-4b12-93fd-ec8f785b0726/histofina_wp_2019_final.pdf ). From one side, there were merged titles won by national teams of Yugoslavia, Serbia and Montenegro, Serbia (see page 16). However, in the article "Participation & standing by country" the result of Serbian national teams are mentioned separately from results of Yugoslavia (see pages 52 and 53) - as well as Russian and Soviet results. Unfortunately, I can't open link with quote from the member of the Croatian Olympic Committee (it's blocked for me). But the International Olympic Committee is clearly separate results of Yugoslavia and Serbia at the Olympic Games (see https://web.archive.org/web/20210418205812/https://www.olympic.org/yugoslavia and https://web.archive.org/web/20210419012910/https://www.olympic.org/serbia ).

So, as we can see, even information at the official sources is quite uncertain and confusing. And for me, this is clear argument against merging of medals just because there is no clear consensus - what medals should be merged and by what principle it should be done. At some articles, there are merged medals won by Serbia and FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro), i.e. medals after 1991 - https://ewpc2024.len.eu/meet-the-groups-group-c-division-2/ At some sources, there are merged titles won by Serbia, FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) and SFR Yugoslavia. At other sources, there are merged medals won by SFR Yugoslavia and FR Yugoslavia before its renaming into Serbia and Montenegro. As there is no clear principle of merging, it's much better to mention all medals won by current and defunct national teams separately in order to avoid confusion. Hyperion82 (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Serbia / Yugoslavia, confirm by FINA official site!

FINA considers Serbia to be the inheritor of the records of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro. Whats this one! http://www2.len.eu/?p=12675 BudvaMontenegro (talk) 16:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

MEDAL TABLE 2020 FROM LEN

This is official medal table from men's and female's competition in European waterpolo championship https://wp2020budapest.com/european-water-polo-championships/ BudvaMontenegro (talk) 15:16, 27 April 2020 (UTC)