Talk:Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy

Looking for less, not more

The article has long stood in a kind of essay form. I had hoped that over time it would become less of an essay, but I think that recent edits, although interesting, have made it more of one. I'm concerned that this is not a good direction; as a summary or analysis of what Rosenstock-Huessy has written doesn't seem to be an easy thing to do, and it may unwise to attempt to do so in such a confined space. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 01:11, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mkmcconn. The article has become of a encyclopedia-style biography and more of a series of book reports. See my proposal, below. HopsonRoad 11:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Biography Box

This article could graduate from a stub with a proper biography box with picture. Surely there is a jacket cover available to provide the picture. Those in the know will note that Rosenstock-Huessy's last address was on Hopson Road.HopsonRoad 03:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Obtained permission to use photo, added biography info box.HopsonRoad 02:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Since Rosenstock-Huessy is specifically known and referenced to as a social and language philosopher, I think an {{Infobox Philosopher}} would be much more appropriate than the generic {{Infobox Person}} currently employed. -- alexgieg (talk) 03:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 06:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Upgraded to Start with biography info box.HopsonRoad 02:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Recast of Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy biography

Currently this article reads like a series of book reports after the introductory material. I propose to do the following steps:

• 1. Move the discussions of each book to a page of its own, where it can be developed appropriately (e.g. see Thomas L. Friedman's The World Is Flat).
  2. Cite and draw on the two current well-written on-line biographical summaries found here and here.
  3. Fix the many problems with non-Wiki style found in this article (references, lead paragraph, etc.)

I invite other comments and ideas on this approach. I plan to proceed, starting November 18. HopsonRoad 11:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

• I am in full agreement with the above proposal. --Palaeovia^talk 12:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree. Thank you for your help, HopsonRoad. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 23:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Progress

• OK, I brought over a new version for previewing. I need to work on the Harvard references—they have to link to the appropriate citation. I have the articles on key books in the works.—HopsonRoad 12:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have made new articles for Soziologie, Out of Revolution, I Am an Impure Thinker, and Speech and Reality. I still haven't conquered the Harvard References. HopsonRoad (talk) 03:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
• I have the references working properly.HopsonRoad (talk) 23:12, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Progress

Fine. Adelante! -- €pa (talk) 01:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Honorary LLD

Rosenstock-Huessy reportedly received an honorary Doctor of Laws degree in 1967 from the University of California, Santa Clara. This information remains here, awaiting independent citable verification.--User:HopsonRoad 20:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

GA assessment

Overall assessment

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Detailed assessment

1:

• Very minor grammar issues, e.g. “In 19xx” not always offset by comma and extraneous punctuation (see “During World War II” and “Renewed labor education” sections).

 Done Punctuation repaired.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Section headers should be noun or noun phrases (e.g. “During World War I” and “Between world wars” would be, more appropriately, “World War I” and “Interwar Period”, respectively). In a header, only the first letter and proper nouns should be capitalized (e.g. “Return to Academia” should be “Return to academia”).

 Done Section headers corrected.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Quotes with 4 or more lines and quotes serving as a whole paragraph should be in box quote format (see “Return to academia” and “Dartmouth College” sections)

 Done Paraphrased rather than quoted.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Translations are not consistently provided, e.g. “Löwenberger Arbeitslager” and “Die Kreatur”

 Done Translations provided throughout.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Umlaut in Hüssy is used in the lead, but never again in the article. Either “ü” or “ue” needs to be used consistently throughout.

 Done Explanation of evolution of spelling moved to a footnote.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Peacock words/phrases, e.g. “a scholarly man”, “appalling”, “atrocious”, “important”, etc.

 Done Searched for and removed such phrases.--User:HopsonRoad 03:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

2:

• I’m concerned about the heavy use of autobiographical sources, for obvious WP:V and WP:NPOV reasons. Per WP:SELFPUB, “Material from self-published … sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as … the article is not based primarily on such sources”. WP:RS, additionally, requires “third party” sources. As I’m not aware of policy explicitly mentioning the use of autobiographies in articles about deceased individuals, this issue alone would not preclude me from passing the article. I would, however, recommend that additional, alternative sources be used.
• Phrases such as “Subsequent scholars have found much of what he wrote about human culture to be insightful and prophetic”, “with very high academic standards” and “offers a good overview of Rosenstock-Huessy's thought processes” appear to violate WP:NOR (not to mention WP:NPOV).

3:

• Possible factual inaccuracy - “German Army drafted Rosenstock-Huessy as a lieutenant”. A lieutenant in the German army is an Offizierdienstgrad. Especially given the aristocratic nature of the WWI German (i.e. Prussian) armed forces, I find it difficult to believe that anyone, especially someone with no military background, would be conscripted as a commissioned officer. This assertion needs a reliable, third-party source.

 Done Reference to rank removed. Freya von Moltke reports that R-H was promoted after he was drafted, but have not found a published reference on this.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Known factual inaccuracy – article states “he obtained a position with Daimler-Benz, the German car manufacturer”, implicitly on or about 1919. Daimler-Benz did not exist as such until the 1926 merger of Benz & Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft. For which of the two did he work?

 Done Corrected: Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft. Confirmed both by reference and Freya von Moltke.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Article essentially defines Rosenstock as “a social philosopher, who taught at Dartmouth College”, but precious little narrative regarding his capacity as a professor or, more importantly, the content of his works is provided. Article is, in this sense, extremely vague. Article needs to provide substantive description of the content of his works, the schools of thought/philosophy to which he belonged (if any), his contributions to the field, etc. Article does not even expand on metanomics.
• Incomplete thoughts, e.g. Why did WWII cause the CCC programs to end?

 Done Explained: WWII drafted men and drew women into war effort.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• Discrepancy - article asserts Soziologie is unavailable in English, but the provided volume names are only in English.

4:

• Article tone and quote selections are approbatory in their treatment of the subject. There is no criticism or opposing thought section. Certainly there must be scholars, philosophers, etc. who reject or otherwise criticize his thoughts.
• Article states “Soon after January 30, 1933, when Germany fell to National Socialism”. Use of “fell” has certain connotations and is, consequently, a WP:NPOV violation. Germany did not fall to National Socialism; evil though it was, NS was a duly elected government.

 Done Corrected: NS "assumed power."--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

6:

• The Verdun photo is not appropriate for this article. It does not meaningfully/appropiately illustrate the subject at hand, the subject’s involvement in the conflict or the conflict itself.

 Done Photograph has been removed.--User:HopsonRoad 04:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

General:

• Many of these concerns seem to be relatively trivial to remedy. I believe, however, that the content is sufficiently lacking to preclude holding the article. Please let me know if assistance or elaboration is needed. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ _talk 21:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments on Article from a Rosenstock-Huessy Scholar

1) The opening section, which for many readers is all they will look at, should be much stronger, emphasizing the most important achievements or happenings in his life. That he taught at Dartmouth College, e.g., an accident of sorts, may be interesting, but should it be the first sentence?

The unusual range of this thinking, his conversion to Xtianity, his distinguished academic career in Germany, the advent of Nazism, his effort to reestablish himself in the U. S., and so forth, should be featured.

Here is how I would write the very first para.

"ERH . . . was a wide-ranging, original, and profound thinker whose work spanned many disciplines, particularly history, theology, sociology, and linguistics. Born into a non-observant Jewish family in Berlin, the son of a prosperous banker, he converted to Christianity in his late teens, and thereafter the interpretation and reinterpretation of Christianity was a consistent theme in his writings.

He forged a successful academic career in Germany as a specialist in Medieval law, but like many in his generation, his life was catastrophically dislocated by the rise of Nazism. In 1933, with the advent of Hitler's regime, he emigrated to the U. S., and began a new academic career in this country, initially at Harvard University and then at Dartmouth College, where he taught from 1935 to 1957.

If his external emigration to the United States was of major consequence in his biography, what he described as his "internal emigration" following the European disaster of World War I, equally transformed his lif. The so-called Great War caused him to re-examine all of the foundations of liberal Western culture which failed so abysmally in the trenches of Verdun, where Rosenstock-Huessy himself was an officer in the German army.

Although somehow never part of the mainstream of intellectual discussion during his lifetime, he attracted distinguished admirers such as W. H. Auden, Harold Berman, Martin Marty, Louis Mumford, Page Smith, and others."

That's a draft which you are free to re-write with abandon.

2) Next, I missed a section on writings about RH. I have been compiling such a list, beginning with 1973 (see the attached), but there are works about him preceding his death in 1973, in English. Most important is George Morgan's SPEECH AND SOCIETY, and also fundamental for anyone hoping to study RH is the the Fund's A GUIDE TO THE WORKS OF EUGEN ROSENSTOCK-HUESSY: A CHRONOGICAL BIBLIOGRAPHY. . . .(1997). Page Smith's HISTORY AND HISTORIANS (approximate title) has a chapter on RH. Ask Mark Huessy to mail you a copy of the printed Argo catalogue, which has miscellaneous stuff in it that is perhaps not on the web site.

Most recently, Martin Marty's Haskins Lecture to the American Council of Learned Societies (2006 or 2007) features Rosenstock. I can mail you a printed version (do I have your address), but I think it's also on line.

3) Some specific questions or comments. Under "Interward Period," "as a means to improve the societal standards of living," is pretty weak, and the next sentence "returned to academia and started publishing" is also vague and inaccurate. In the Program for the conference last week, I wrote a half-page on both Rosenstock and Rosenzweig, in which I referred to the 1920s and 30s, when he was in and out of academe. See the attached

Under "Labor Education," I don't think that Patmos belongs there. It was in fact closely related to the journal Die Kreatur.

You have repeated information about Wittig; it appears in "Return to Academic," para. 3, and then again in "Publications."

Under Publications 1914-1933, "his medieval study" is probably superfluous; the phrase could be left out, but in any case "medieval study" should be his book on medieval history, or something like that.

Under "Dartmouth College," better to say, "he often attacked the alleged pure, objective academic"

"At Harvard, he had made friends there who" needs cleaning up: "At Harvard, he made friends who"

"Renewed labor ed" -- the idea behind Camp WJ was to train CCC leaders. Add to your books in English about RH, Jack Preiss's CAMP WILLIAM JAMES--great reading if you don't know it. I would say, "all walks of life" and all social and economic classes. User:HopsonRoad 23:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

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Frieden schaffen ohne Waffen

The theme of world peace and swords to plowshares was of central interest to Eugene Rosenstock, when he was a student at University in Germany. It may be of interest to enquire about this with the Society named after him in the USA, or else the Vatican in Rome. comment added by PeaceWins (talk • contribs) 11:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for writing, PeaceWins. I am well aware that ERH wrote about issues of war and peace after WW I, well after he graduated from university and married. I am closely connected with members of the Eugen-Rosenstock Huessy Foundation and have never heard any of them speak of "swords to plowshares" as part of his philosophy. Furthermore, in the years when I was his next-door-neighbor, I never heard him speak of that either. Perhaps you could provide a citation that supports that idea. BTW, please remember to sign your talk-page posts with ~~~~. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 14:11, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for writing, HopsonRoad. This was not something he would speak about with neighbors, as one does in most areas of philosophy. Neither did Louis D. Brandeis. OK!PeaceWins (talk) 15:59, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Ehrenberg and Rosenzweig?

Hi, FranzHansEugene, you have added the following text to the article: "He worked with Hans Ehrenberg and Franz Rosenzweig on themes of common interest in the subjects of philosophy, law and sociology. They went together for long walks in the woods (cf. Peace Conference at the Vatican, 1910)." Please supply a reliable reference that informs us of this association. Having done so, let's discuss here why that's significant enough to have in this article—what resulted from that association? Cheers, HopsonRoad (talk) 01:09, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi HopsonRoad. I certainly have added that point. The most reliable reference are of course their relatives and friends of the time, and possibly the Vatican archives.FranzHansEugene (talk) 21:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging here, FranzHansEugene. Unfortunately, what you describe does not qualify as a reliable source in Wikipedia. You may wish to review: Wikipedia:Reliable sources. In sum, "Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish only the analysis, views, and opinions of reliable authors, and not those of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." A reliable source, covering this contribution, would at the same time speak to the significance of the association, described above. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 03:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)