Talk:Ethel Cain

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 10 September 2021 and 23 October 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Catpawhs.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Ethel cain shot for W mag by matthew tomasi, 2022.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Ethel-Cain-Licensed-image-2.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:23, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Pre-Ethel Cain projects

There is absolutely no need to mention any music released prior to August 2019 on this page in any more detail than a sentence or two. Any EPs released under previous aliases have been deliberately removed from streaming and only exist on the internet as unauthorized fan uploads. Every artist has music they made prior to "making it big" and next to none of them have it all listed on their Wikipedia pages in such great detail. It serves no purpose for that information to be on here. Much of it is unsourced and inaccurate. All of it is unnecessary. Attempts to keep this info on this page after the subject has repeatedly stated her wishes to have it removed is a petty attack and feels rooted in transphobia. 38.20.197.121 (talk) 04:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello. The content you removed is in no way unsourced or inaccurate, it's part of Hayden Anhedönia's discography, you deliberately removed content that was adequately sourced with reference links to the music releases on streaming services. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such we strive to keep it as accurate as possible. This is not an attack, let alone a transphobic one. SubtleSylph (talk) 05:39, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, this content is irrelevant. It is not possible to access most of Anhedönia's previous music, and she has mentioned that she does not acknowledge her previous art as part of her career, and would like it to be kept separate. Please respect the feelings of artists. Even with these songs being officially released before, they are now rare and of little to no significance compared to the rest of her career. Making these songs so public is rather cruel and unnecessary. This has gone on too long. Any mention of her old aliases and old art not pertaining to her current, much more relevant, stage of her career, should be promptly deleted as to ensure her privacy and keep this article relevant. 216.164.105.164 (talk) 03:03, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I ask for someone to take this into account and make such changes. I am not experienced with editing Wikipedia pages and will not bother to do so. Any mention of Anhedönia's career prior to Ethel Cain must be removed, and the decision to do so must be respected. This article should be locked if people persist on adding irrelevant information. 216.164.105.164 (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The editor "Papermassacred" appears to be the artist herself, and is constantly watching, editing and vandalising the page to be more positive about Cain

The wikipedia user Papermassacred has an edit history dating back to 2018 - including the creation of this page - and their edits are mostly on this page or related to it. They're editing history appears slanted towards presenting a more positive image of Cain (particuarly any attempts to outline projects by Cain prior to their current public persona, despite that being common biographical information for artists) and have recieved warnings for edit wars on this page.

Their username "Papermassacred" is the same as the artist Cain's Instagram/social media handles from about 2017/2018 and although there's a small chance a particularly committed fan would name themselves after their favourite artist's one-time social media handle, it's much more likely this is a case of a celebrity editing their own Wikipedia page which is against wiki guidelines. I intend to raise this with mods to stop the vandalism unless someone can prove otherwise? Cliffordben1994 (talk) 08:00, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Ethel Cain said in the past that she created her own Wikipedia page (on a now-deleted Discord server she had). I've been watching this page since I noticed she deleted a whole section of the article, she's been warned and hasn't edited anything else since. SubtleSylph (talk) 22:40, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

@SubtleSylph Hey friend, I'm now going to watch this page as well so you're not alone 😅 I noticed that many many IP accounts keep trying to add non-free images to the page, and to me that sort of copyright violation endangers Wikipedia as a whole.

I have never actually listened to this performer as I'm getting old and unhip, lol, but I might end up doing so just out of my little copyright protection crusade here. I noticed that all of your contributions to the page have been solidly within the norms of en.wiki, at least as I understand them, so thanks for that, and high five for an open knowledge commons! Chiselinccc (talk) 14:17, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

social media section

where did the section on her multiple presences on social media go? Fourthandfremont (talk) 05:14, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Are we going to talk about the fact that her last name is definitely NOT Anhedönia?

In case you don't know, "Anhedönia" is a disorder describing "lack of interest, enjoyment or pleasure from life's experiences". It is not a last name. It's clearly part of Cain's alter-ego, given the similarity between the term and her moody, melancholic music. That's fine, but this fact should be marked, and we shouldn't be listing Anhedönia as her "birth name."

Of course, the realm of "birth names" is delicate for a bio of any trans person. So, the wiki article should be respectful, but at least accurate. Treelibrary (talk) 08:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I thought "Anhedönia" was an unlikely surname at birth, but I didn't see anything in the sources to provide an accurate one. _signed, Willondon (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Her birth surname is Horner. As far as I'm aware, she said she legally changed it to Anhedönia after coming out as trans (sadly I don't have any archived links of this). She recently changed her Facebook profile name to Hayden Horner, so I'm not sure if her legal name is Anhedönia or Horner nowadays. SubtleSylph (talk) 23:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I had a similar thing happen in the talk section of the SOPHIE page… Also, I’m a little confused as to wikipedia’s double standards on public info. Whether that be in regard to people who are trans or not. For example they don’t let you cite the California birth index for people born there. When it’s quite literally public information. And also isn’t the point of Wikipedia to be transparent! and not to conceal peoples real names and such… reminds me of another artist’s page… mxmtoon.

then in regards to trans artist’s wikipedia page’s. I questioned why the birth surname of Long wasn’t found anywhere on Sophie’s page. Despite it being well documented. And unlike Hayden, I don’t know if there was ever legal change to Xeon as a lastname for Sophie?

But some wiki editor said I was ‘dead naming’, despite that not being dead naming at all.For pointing out the birth surname. I think it would be a double standard not to apply the same principle of showing legal last names for all wiki’ pages, trans or not.

side note: oh yeah, another thing happened with Alexa Demie, and Lukas Gage actors from Euphoria’s pages. They did not want their legal last names out there I guess. which is crazy, being a successful actor, should come with higher transparency and scrutiny in my opinion.

TLDR; celebrities and non-celebs also cis and trans people should all be held at the same standard on wikipedia if their legal or birth surname is out there on the internet, it should be on their Wikipedia page.

I listen to both Sophie and Hayden/Ethel Cain all the time, but I agree I am not gonna blindly defend keeping relatively well-known musicians surnames private. Magnumb22 (talk) 07:25, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I just changed birth name to Horner. Publishing birth surname is not deadnaming, as long as mention of the name is strictly limited to context of birth.

That said, I think there is no good reason for this name to appear in the article outside the Birth name section of the infobox. Adding "(formerly Horner)" to the lead sentence or "Born Hayden Horner" in the intro is totally unnecessary and should be kept out of the article. Jbermingham123 (talk) 00:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)