Talk:Erwin Rösener

"Partisan-supporting civilians"

Re this edit [1], there is no need to be any more than very brief. First of all, please confine your comments to the content, not other editors. Next, as is well-documented, the executions of civilians in question were wholesale and indiscriminate. Whole villages were razed by fire after all males over the age of 18 had been executed. Therefore to edit the article to say "Partisan-supporting civilians" is entirely incorrect. The edit is also unencyclopedic as it is not supported by any source. Therefore, for these two reasons, I will continue to revert this change. Many thanks, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 09:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You must provide proof from historical sources for your allegations. You have made grotesque claims before on wikipedia, sadly enough. Not breakfestival.org nonsense 'sources'. Your word use qualifies as POV.Smith2006 (talk) 11:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the proof that he ordered the wholesale execution of civilians in one of his execution notices: http://shrani.si/files/0s3cj.jpg. It reads: "Notice. It has been ascertained that the majority of the male inhabitants of the villages of Gradische (Gradišče pri Lukovici) and Koreno, Kreis Stein, have joined bands [of rebels], while the rest of the population have constantly supported them with reports and food and despite their knowledge of the location and activities of bandits not notified the authorities. For this reason, both villages have been destroyed by fire, the male inhabitants aged over 18 have been shot and the rest of the population evicted".
Other notices of large scale executions ordered by Rösener in June, July and November 1942: http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/570/banditenbekanntmachungsty1.jpg
http://shrani.si/f/A/js/2yMrcRzk/avvisoss1.jpg. What else do you need? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 14:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I inserted the fact that it were male civilians, that the Germans said that Partisans were supported from these villages.Smith2006 (talk) 10:18, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

And I have removed it, as you completely misunderstand the reprisals and are apparently seeking to somehow justify them as legitimate anti-communist actions. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You do not read your own sources. "Communist bandits killed three Slovenian housefathers" And the Nazis in reprisal executed Slovenian males suspected of Communist sympathies, and razed villages and the male adult population where Partisans were said to be supported. I do not say the Germans were correct, but these were not random executions or something as your version suggests. I only want added into the article that that is what happened. I added "alleged". In fact, it is an historical fact that Partisans also murdered Slovenian families.Smith2006 (talk) 10:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

My version says nothing of the kind. It says, without POV, or explanation, or attempted justification, that he ordered the mass execution of civilians in Slovenia. You, on the other hand, are attempting to insert POV, explanations and justifications. I will continue to revert this. Take it to WP:DR if you want to. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

You are saying just "mass executions" of civilians. Well, in fact women, children were not included, and you consciously want to hide the circumstances of the executions. I do not justify killing adult male civilians at all. I give the circumstances. Facts. You only give emotions.Smith2006 (talk) 10:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Women and children were most definitely included, as anyone who knows anything about this issue is aware. It seems to me you are very much coming at this issue from a position of pre-formed POV rather than knowledge, so to help you, I'll offer you this photo album, for, as they say, a picture is worth 1,000 words. See [2]. I hope you have a strong stomach. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

POV tag question to Smith2006

Smith2006, you will have noticed that I have removed your tag. For the purposes of us having a reasonable discussion, would you be kind enough to explain what exactly it is about this article that you think, from your obviously highly-informed and neutral standpoint, is not NPOV? Apologies if it is not immediately clear to me, but what should be changed, and why? Many thanks in advance for taking the time to set out your points. Regards, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear Alasdair, Please reinsert the POV-tag. I made clear before, that the circumstances of mass executions are relevant. Also add: male civilians, over 18 years old, in villages "suspect" of supporting communist Partisans.Smith2006 (talk) 20:11, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Smith2006, unfortunately there are a range of problems with what you propose. Firstly, just because Rösener said that the civilians in question had been supporting the Partisans does not make it true. I am sure you are aware that the modus operandi of the SS in many occupied countries, including Yugoslavia, was to carry out large scale executions among the local population in areas where there was resistance or partisan activity. These were designed as reprisals and as a deterrent to future activity. For that reason, that the execution notices said that the local population had been supporting bandits is not relevant, nor is it something we have any sources to support. Secondly, the executions were wholesale. Who is to say if they 100% supported the Partisans? Personally I find it unlikely, as in any human poulation you are bound to find at least one person who holds a differing view. Either way, there is no evidence that they did or did not. Next, executions were ordered throughout the war, and they were not restricted to adult males. Next, it is not appropriate to say "communist" Partisans, as we are talking about executions that went on throughout the war. It is a matter of record that while there were always communists in the Partisan movement, in the early days it was not dominated by communists. It certainly did become overwhelmingly dominated by communists later in the war, but to apply a blanket term as you propose is not historically accurate. I hope that my points have cleared up any doubts you may have. If you'd like to find out more about Yugoslavia 1941-45 I can recommend reading War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945 by Jozo Tomasevich, Professor at Stanford University. Best, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Article improvements

This article is difficult to edit because much of the material in the notes should be brought up into the main article. It is difficult to determine the breaks between text and notes. If I get time I will try to improve without making any substantive changes. Mtsmallwood (talk) 15:33, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

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