Talk:Electric vehicle battery

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Battery cost

The article lists several battery costs, but the prices are inconsistent. How is there such a high variance in battery prices of the same year. Moreover, how is at the same year two listed prices that vary greatly: 400 USD & 500-600 USD. Also the 2016 figures are not properly sourced / validated if I would say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.155.206.171 (talk) 09:24, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Recent edit

Would someone please review this recent edit? -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Good reference for someone else

This is a good ref.... http://www.element-energy.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/CCC-battery-cost_-Element-Energy-report_March2012_Finalbis.pdf

Improving the article

In the battery types used, the differences in the lithium-ion batteries can be named (see Lithium-ion_battery#Cathodes and Anodes)

Its should also be mentioned that lithium-ion batteries are heavily weather-affected (eg they only provide 10% of their power in cold climates (under -30°Celcius). (Perhaps other types are thus better used here)

It should also be mentioned that batteries mostly cannot be created at a environmentally-friendly manner. An extra strain is that lithium-batteries (which are the most used) are made of lithium which is mined in South-America (often without much environmental consideration) -->this could perhaps be best placed in a new article Comparison of electrochemical batteries KVDP (talk) 08:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

At footnote 53, instead of using the phrase "At early 2007 gasoline and electricity prices, that would break even after six to ten years of operation" I would prefer that a USdollar cost be substituted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.57.191.207 (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Firefly not bancrupt anymore:On October 1, 2010, Firefly International Energy Co. has acquired assets of Firefly Energy from the Bankruptcy Estate and resurrected its operations at the same location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.226.26.236 (talk) 21:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Battery swapping

Are there any electric cars which have batteries that can be bought separately and are swappable by the user rather than at automated swapping stations? Has this idea been studied and found to be unfeasible? Esn (talk) 07:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Verifiability

Per wp:verifiable:

All material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. In practice you do not need to attribute everything; only quotations and material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed, through an inline citation which directly supports the material in question.

Request that deleted text due to not being referenced not be undone, without adding citations for the deleted text. Thanks, Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 01:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

So the normal process is to add cn tags to statements that need to be verified. please undo your ridiculous deletions yourself and tag them as necessary. Otherwise I will revert en masse. WP:OWN Greglocock (talk) 01:48, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales suggests it gets deleted: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-May/046440.html:

There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative "I heard it somewhere" pseudo information is to be tagged with a "needs a cite" tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced.

Find sources for your ridiculous conjecture and then add it back in. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 02:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

In terms of specific text:

The future of battery electric vehicles depends primarily upon the cost and availability of batteries with high energy densities, power density, and long life

Doesn't sound very encyclopedic. What future is this in reference too? Currently there is a waiting list for Nissan Leaf. Every major manufacturer is coming out with an electric vehicle. There is tons of research into battery technology. The cost of oil seems to be a bigger factor than current battery tech. If I were to interject my opinion I would say: The future is bright for electric vehicles because of ... Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 03:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I deleted the conjecture and added specifics about the future of electric vehicles such as projected sales for Nissan Leaf with reference. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 03:41, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I gave you two alternatives. You have selected one. Enjoy. Greglocock (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

We are guided by wikipedia policies and guidelines, not your choices. Enjoy. :) Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 04:51, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I note that at least some of the recently deleted material appears to have been added by Mac (talk · contribs) and his sockpuppets, including the bit about "Ultrabattery", and so all sections of this article should be carefully checked for verifiability, including where apparently referenced with citations (which may be bogus). Tim PF (talk) 10:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that some of what was removed needed to be removed, but much of the rest needed cites/rewrites not deletion. In my opinion it is easier towork frm the basis of an existing article, since it has been relatively stable. Greglocock (talk) 02:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

There is still at least some bits (such as the "Ultrabattery") that you have reinstated without good cause. I acknowledge that there may be some bits which need citations or rewrites, but patent nonsense, and such like should just be pruned.

Just because an article has been "relatively stable", doesn't mean that it is right. This article is linked to from fewer than 50 articles and has fewer than 30 watchers, so its stability may simply be due to obscurity. Tim PF (talk) 08:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, but Ultrabattery is a worthwhile example. The concept is important, and many people are working on it, and there are commercial products out there. Just because one link is bad doesn't kill the concept. I hadn't realised this article was so unregarded. Interesting. Anyway I'll give it a good read through and join in the fun Greglocock (talk) 00:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Ultrabattery

From everything I have studied so far (both on Wikipedia and its references), the concept of matching a conventional electrical accumulator (ie battery) with a capacitor to provide energy storage where demand can have sharp peaks (both positive and negative) as well as more steady and overall dominant loads (again both positive and negative) appears sound. Capacitors appear to handle transient power better than batteries, but have less stamina.

There is also much evidence that batteries can store enough energy per unit mass / volume for use in electric vehicles, both as plain old battery electric vehicles and hybrids, including electric / battery hybrid rail vehicles (trams). Some capacitors (ELDCs aka Ultracapacitors) have also been proven in some vehicles, notably trams (typically to provide power to cross gaps in the overhead wires of up to 2km, including a few stops).

So far, that's about as far as I can find reliable sources. More specifically:

1. The reference given in this article failed verification,
2. It is unclear if "UltraBattery" might be a trade mark,
3. A web search for "ultrabattery" or "ultra battery" mostly returns hits about alkaline cells.

So, I agree that the concept is important, but cannot find evidence to support the assertions that "many people are working on it, and there are commercial products out there". I would like to see that evidence, so that it changes from a concept to its own properly sourced Wikipedia article. Tim PF (talk) 08:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm astonished you couldn't find an RS. It is a red hot topic http://green.autoblog.com/2008/01/20/csiros-ultrabattery-to-cut-cost-of-hybrid-battery-by-2-000-in/ was the first hit of many, here's a reliable organisation http://www.csiro.au/science/Supercapacitors.html . Greglocock (talk) 01:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

A 2008 article and says it will be available in two years. Sounds like vaporware. Not reliable. Just people reprinting company proganda that isn't encyclopedic. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 04:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, just don't drop this vaporware on your toe, it might hurt your brain http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=capacitor+battery&wrapid=tlif130267447729110&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4970475131222061046&sa=X&ei=NjylTeuUAqSN0QGS5aH0CA&ved=0CDwQ8wIwAg#

and here's that well known purveyor of snake oil the IEEE http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/a-batterycapacitor-hybridfor-hybrids

And here's what everyone's favorite loudmouth thinks http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1057301_tesla-ceo-super-capacitors-trump-electric-car-batteries . However I agree this article is no place for speculation and I shall remove all referneces to unreleased products, if you prefer. I have no skin in this game. Greglocock (talk) 06:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the links, which at least clears up the second point: "UltraBattery" appears to be either a trade-mark or at least a product name of CSIRO.

I think there may be enough in the IEEE report to be able to add something back into the "Ultracapacitors" section, as it appears not to be vapourware, but just not (yet) commercial. I suspect that it has not yet reached the market either due to problems in production, or because it doesn't out-perform the other batteries.

So, there's probably enough out there to add to the section as per my thoughts above (from yesterday). Tim PF (talk) 21:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Next gen batteries

Maybe someone wants to work this into the article: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20108289-48/researchers-zero-in-on-solid-state-auto-battery/?tag=mncol;txt http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110919/OEM06/309199995/1186   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Someone might invent something someday that will be really good. I don't think we need to cover it this week; wait 3 or 4 days to see if this radical new invention actually changes the world. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

More drama : New Toyota battery is based on a solid core .   Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 03:54, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a really uninformative English translation of a Japanese press release. Could we get a more technical description than the journalist-ese, before adding it to the article? If this is a real thing and not just the product of the PR machinery, it will have a technical journal article that explains what the "solid" core is, what the battery does, and its limitations compared with other types. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

More uninfo: Battery with 20 year life span . Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 12:14, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Get a charge in 30 seconds . Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 15:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, something a little closer to actual production might be of note for this article. Battery research is ongoing and it's not for Wikipedia to predict which lab announcements will have any effect in the real world. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/25-battery-breakthroughs-for-gadgets-electric-cars-the-grid/ Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 14:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

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This article is about batteries.

It is not about BEVs. I propose to remove /all/ vehicle related spam from this article. We do not need a list of BEVs. We don't need photos of BEVs. Greglocock (talk) 18:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

"Example Vehicles and their Battery capacity" section

This section just lists the battery capacity in kWh but it should give the energy density (kWh/kg) instead. It would be great if someone could add this information.

Why? wh/kg mostly set by battery chemistry. As well give the density of gasoline instead of the size of the fuel tank. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:21, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

I would support having both kWh and kWh/kg. The kWh says how long the battery will last. The kWh/kg says how much extra tonnage the battery adds to the car. Variations of dino juice don't vary that much (petrol vs diesel). But different battery chemistries vary a lot in weight (eg lead vs Li-ion) for the same kWh.  Stepho  talk  07:50, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Aluminium-Air?

Aluminium-Air ... No mention here as yet ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery

New alleged developments.... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7592485/Father-eight-invents-electric-car-battery-drivers-1-500-miles-without-charging-it.html Various others ... 210.185.119.208 (talk) 02:15, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a community effort. Please feel free to add them in.  Stepho  talk  16:58, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

It isn't just Aluminium-air. Zinc-air is also a possible candidate https://www.indiatoday.in/education-today/news/story/iit-madras-researchers-develop-new-kind-of-battery-technology-for-electric-cars-1957571-2022-06-02 They're both part of the Metal–air electrochemical cell family. Alexandros des Børgus (talk) 08:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Swedish Chef

The article says "Ciez and Whitacre found that around 9 kg CO₂e kg battery⁻¹ is emitted during raw materials pre-processing". I think this means 9kg of CO₂ were emitted per battery during raw materials pre-processing. Thoughts?  Stepho  talk  07:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 201 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 September 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MichaelNhy (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by MichaelNhy (talk) 01:00, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Battery warranties. Federal, state, and brand

Someone with more time than me might want to create a warranty section in the article.

https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/hybrid-ev-battery-warranty - excerpt:

Hybrid and EV battery warranty coverage often lasts longer. Federal law requires automakers to ensure EV and hybrid batteries for at least eight years or 100,000 miles. California goes even further, requiring a 10-year, 150,000-mile warranty on EV and hybrid batteries. Toyota has adopted that standard in all 50 states.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hybrids-evs/do-hybrid-vehicles-need-to-be-plugged-in-to-charge-a9207119581 - excerpt:

In about 10 states, they’re required to warranty them for 10 years or 150,000 miles. This is because hybrid batteries are part of an emissions control system, and emissions-related parts often have different warranties than the rest of the vehicle.

--Timeshifter (talk) 18:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Please note that this looks like a US specific thing (perhaps only a Californian specific thing, plus the states that follow Californian emissions laws) that the rest of the while wide word may not care about. Probably better to mention it as a text thing rather then constructing a whole table about it.  Stepho  talk  21:43, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Doubt we need this old text

I moved it here as I doubt readers would find it useful

In 2010, battery professor Poul Norby stated that he believed that lithium batteries will need to double their specific energy and bring down the price from US$500 (2010) to US$100 per kWh capacity in order to make an impact on petrol cars. Citigroup indicates US$230/kWh.

Toyota Prius 2012 plug-in's official page declare 21 kilometres (13 mi) of range and a battery capacity of 5.2 kWh with a ratio of 4 kilometres (2.5 mi)/kWh, while the Addax (2015 model) utility vehicle already reaches 110 kilometres (68.5 mi) or a ratio of 7.5 kilometers (4.6 mi)/kWh.

Battery electric cars have an energy consumption between 2.5 miles (4.0 km)/kWh (85 MPGe) and 5.0 miles (8.0 km)/kWh (135 MPGe).

United States Secretary of Energy Steven Chu predicted costs for a 40-mile range battery will drop from a price in 2008 of US$12,000 to US$3,600 in 2015 and further to US$1,500 by 2020. lithium-ion, Li-poly, aluminium–air batteries and zinc-air batteries have demonstrated specific energies high enough to deliver range and recharge times comparable to conventional fossil fueled vehicles.

————_—————

Japanese and European Union officials are in talks to jointly develop advanced rechargeable batteries for electric cars to help nations reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. Developing a battery that can power an electric vehicle 500 kilometres (310 mi) on a single charging is feasible, said Japanese battery maker GS Yuasa Corp. Sharp Corp and GS Yuasa are among Japanese solar-power cell and battery makers that may benefit from cooperation.

• The lithium-ion battery in the AC Propulsion tzero provides 400 to 500 km (200 to 300 mi) of range per charge (single charge range). The list price of this vehicle when it was released in 2003 was US$220,000.
• Driving in a Daihatsu Mira equipped with 74 kWh lithium ion batteries, the Japan EV Club has achieved a world record for an electric car: 1,003 kilometres (623 mi) without recharging.
• Zonda Bus, in Jiangsu, China offers the Zonda Bus New Energy with a 500-kilometre (310 mi) only-electric range.
• The supercar Rimac Concept One with 82 kWh battery has a range of 500 km. The car has been in production since 2013.
• The pure electric car BYD e6 with 60 kWh battery has a range of 300 km.

———————-

According to Kammen et al., 2008, new PEVs would become cost efficient to consumers if battery prices would decrease from US$1300/kWh to about US$500/kWh (so that the battery may pay for itself).

In 2010, the Nissan Leaf battery pack was reportedly produced at a cost of US$18,000. Nissan's initial production costs at the launch of the Leaf were therefore about US$750 per kilowatt hour (for the 24 kWh battery).

In 2012, McKinsey Quarterly linked battery prices to gasoline prices on a basis of 5-year total cost of ownership for a car, estimating that US$3.50/gallon equates to US$250/kWh. In 2017 McKinsey estimated that electric cars will be competitive at a battery pack cost of US$100/kWh (expected around 2030), and expects pack costs to be US$190/kWh by 2020.

In October 2015, car maker GM revealed at their annual Global Business Conference that they expected a price of US$145 per kilowatt hour for Li-ion cells entering 2016.

Chidgk1 (talk) 10:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Norway

moved here as not in scope i think

Promotion in Norway

Norway has become a leading example of BEV promotion. The BEV market share is highest in the world in Norway, the main reason being the strong incentives for promoting purchase and ownership of BEVs. Norway has an incentive package for BEVs that often equate or even make a BEV cheaper to purchase than an Internal Combustion Engine Vehicle (ICEV). In addition to the purchase price incentives, there are also incentives that make BEVs more cost-efficient and convenient in daily use. Incentive policies have a clear success for increasing BEV sales in Norway, making it a great case to learn from for other countries wanting to head in the same direction. Chidgk1 (talk) 12:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)