Talk:Electric upright bass

Anyone know what a 'liquid role' is for bass?--Light current 04:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Still waiting for someone to tell me about 'liquid roles'. Maybe I could use one on my bass!--Light current 18:43, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Electronic effects

Are EUBs ever used with guitar style effects pedals?

I dont think so altho theres no reason why they couldnt be--Light current 18:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the best addition, certainly from my point of view , would be a foot operated volume control. Must get one!--Light current 03:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Listen to Eberhard Weber.

Playing Style

The page says "The EUB is played in a similar manner to the pizzicato style on a double bass" - but the image at the top of the page shows an EUB with a bow! Some EUBs can be bowed, and some can't, but they're far from exclusively played pizz. It's a rather absolute statement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.217.173.196 (talk) 11:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

Some electric upright basses have very flat fingerboards, similar to electric basses. These basses can only be played pizzicato. Most EUB's however, have a fingerboard/bridge radius which allows bowing (arco). Pizzicato is the most popular playing style overall. Dinobass 10:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

All perfectly true, but the entry as it stands contradicts itself - by first stating that the EUB IS (not just "can be", or "is mostly") played pizz, and then, in the next sentence, saying that a fixed pin makes arco easier. (for the record, my own EUB has a radiused fingerboard, and I play it arco about 10% of the time (roughly the same figure as for my doublebass, really).)

Adequacy / number of photographs

Does any one think we could do with a side view of the pictured EUB to show the neck profile? I can provide one if necessary.--Light current 18:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell the difference?

The page says you cant tell the difference sound wise. Can anyone say they can (or cant) tell the audible difference between a real DB and an EUB (blind listening)?--Light current 05:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

You can absolutely, 100% tell the difference between an acoustice double bass and an electric upright. It is the same as hearing the difference between an electric guitar and an acoustic guitar. This information should be removed.

Kntrabssi 16:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Whats the difference? and why do you think they sound different?--Light current 17:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have modified the para on sound to say EUBs can be made to sound similar to DBs by amp adjustment. --Light current 18:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Your modifications are perfect, LC.

Kntrabssi 19:20, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!!--Light current 19:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Reason for sound difference between EUB and BG

Any one know why they sound different?--Light current 05:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

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Following Moved from talk:violin due to hostile and abusive reception there from one editor (Who shall remain anonymous)

Overtone production on pizz

What produces the overtones in the string when plucking a fingered note. Could it be the string buzzing against the finger board? Would you hear the buzzing as such or would it just sound like a bright string? Why is the tone different for open and stopped strings?--Light current 03:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I see what you're getting at, and I think there's a slight problem with words here: what you mean (I think) is not buzzing but deadening, or damping. "Buzzing" means a sharp sound, usually produced by something repeatedly striking something else. If you hear a "buzz" on a violin, there's something wrong with the instrument (loose glue joint, etc.) that needs fixing. The finger on a string deadens vibration, since there's a soft object smushing down on top of it (that's a technical term, by the way). As Just Bill has pointed out, this damps higher overtones; it also reduces sustain, which is why open strings "ring" longer than a fingered note.

Does this help explain? --ILike2BeAnonymous 05:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[comment moved back to original place for continuity--ILike2BeAnonymous 22:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)]

You can also get a buzzing string in certain places on a bumpy fingerboard, one that needs to be planed or dressed. Assuming the nut and bridge are well cut, an open string is immobilized where it touches wood, free to vibrate everywhere else, and there is a clean abrupt transition in between. The transition offered by a smushing fingertip is fuzzier. Just plain Bill 14:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

A bit. Open strings ring longer than fingerd ones. This must be due to a damping effect of the fingers. However, Im suggesting the reason for the tone difference is in fact the finger. An open string with correctly adjusted action does not hit the fingerboard at any point. It vibrates from the nut groove which forms a good node for the vibrations. However, any fingered string must slap against the finger board (near the squishy edge of the finger) when vibrating else it could not vibrate at all.

Assume the finger is hard and cylindrical. It could only then touch the string at one point (string is a tangent to it). The string (assume infinitely thin) likewise would ony touch the fingerboard at one point. If the string then is caused to vibrate with any amplitude whatsoever, it is obvious that a small part of the string near the contact point must start slapping the finger board. Other wise the node would be remote from the point of contact, which to my knowledge, is impossible. The portion of the string that slaps against the finger board inceases with the amplitude of the vibration of the string. So more amplitude, more harmonics = brighter sound - yes?

Now the situation with a finger is similar except that the fingertips are softish and will tend to damp out the higher harmonics, but the string will still slap a bit -- it must -- and some of the harmonics will survive giving that characteristic tone that we all know (and love??). For instance, have you noticed a change in tone if you finger harder of softer? Harder fingering = less damping = more overtones = brighter sound. Im not a violinist (Im a couple of octaves below you), so tell me if Im right or not. --Light current 22:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I just did a little experiment with interesting, if inconclusive, results. If you stop a string with a hard metal object and pluck it, the sound sustains more than if a finger were used, but less than an open string. (You can try this yourself easily, assuming you have access to a violin. I used the head of a small socket wrench.) But other than that, the sounds of all three—open string, fingered note and metal-stopped note—are surpringly similar. So your theory is interesting, and I can't refute it, but it's not a very pronounced phenomonon in any case. There's actually not that much difference in sound between a plucked open string and a fingered note (the most noticeable difference is the length of sustain). I still don't really see this as being explained by "buzzing", because I don't hear that distinctive sound, even when stopping the string with a piece of metal.

As far as fingering harder or softer goes, that's pretty esoteric: I can't really perceive any difference there.

You can definitely hear slapping or buzzing if you pull the string off the fingerboard vertically and let it go (the famous "Bartók pizzicato"), but that's something different. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 22:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well your results seem to conflict with some other violinists opinions (on this talk I think). THey say the tone difference is startling (ie the open strings sound crap). With regard to stopping with a bottleneck Im not surprised there is more sustain.(less damping). Why the open string should have more sustain Im not quitesure of unless its something to do with a longer string having greater Q than a shorter one. I think the effect of the inevitable buzzing is subtle on a violin becuse of the highish pitch, but have you ever heard a DB growl?(Mwaah!). Whats that caused by?

I think when you talk about "open strings sound crap", you're confusing things: what they're referring to is the difference in sound between a bowed open string and stopped string. No argument that there's a big difference (for one thing, not possible to have vibrato on an open string). But the difference between a plucked open string and stopped string is not that great. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 23:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ahh!. Well there is a great difference on a DB! (pizz)--Light current 23:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

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Tone of bowed open v stopped strings

I was talking to a violinist the other night about the sound of open bowed strings. She said they dont sound as good as the stopped strings but this was becuse you cant put any 'vib' on open strings. She also said that it was common practice when bowing an open string to stop another string at the same note (or its octave) to obtain sympathetic resonance. Vibrato can then be applied to the unbowed string to make the overall sound more pleasant! --Light current 14:46, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes this must be the condtion for no buzz: half angle of excursion at the stopped point must be lass than the 'angle of the action'. BUT, the half angle of excursion depends upon the amplitude of excursion (ie how hard you pluck/bow). Do you not agree? THe string is a tangent to th finger board and therfore for any non-zero amplitude of vibration , a small part of the string near the finger must slap the fingerboard.--Light current 15:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If you stop a note near a bump on the board, you may sometimes avoid the buzz by playing more softly. The amplitude of excursion has limits; before the middle of the sounding length (the loop of the fundamental oscillation) hits the board, intonation and tone will suffer. In other words, pluck or bow too hard and it starts to sound like something you don't want to step in. Better instruments behave better in this respect, or I believe they are supposed to do.

As I understand the geometry of the scoop, it allows the string to not be tangent to the board where it comes out from under the fingertip, without the action being so high that upper positions become difficult or impossible to play. I don't know anything about your bass, but I still believe that a buzz is a sign of something out of kilter, something that might benefit from professional attention.

Vibrato is secondary to the different tone of stopped vs. open strings. Play a stopped note without vibrato, and it still sounds different than an open string, even if the open string is "perfectly" in tune. I don't know why. Damped overtones? Perhaps. Certainly a mistuned open string is difficult to put in tune with the bow alone.

Just plain Bill 04:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes Bill, I agree that vibrato is something extra and is not fundamentally to do with the tone diffrerence between open and stopped strings. AS I indicated before it can only be the microscopic buzzing of the string on the fb by your finger. What else could it be?

If you were to bow or pluck a string hard enough it is obvious to me that more and more of the string length would come into conatct with the fb, giving an unpleasant sound. Conversely, you can still get a good sound, but quiet, with the action very low if you bow/ pluck very gently. I have confirmed this on my EUB: very gentle plucking of a stopped string sounds very similar in tone to the open strings!--Light current 15:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Double Bass of course :-)--Light current 23:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

You mean not nice and unusable?--Light current 23:39, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah but how does it sound?--Light current 22:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Because otherwise we'll be off the page.--Light current 23:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes on a bumpy fb this will be undamped buzzing and probably sounds horrible! Does it?--Light current 22:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

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Bills comments

(I'll stay at a two-colon indent for a while here...) Agree that string buzzing on fingerboard is a nasty annoying sound. But, LC, I disagree that a stopped string "must slap." If the action is set high enough, and the fingerboard properly scooped, then the string departs from the fingerboard at an angle steeper than the end's half-angle of excursion as it vibrates. For a perlon (nylon) or gut violin G, that translates to about 5 mm off the end of the fingerboard, which is scooped concave in the middle by about 3/4 of a mm. For a steel-strung bass, that might be 9 mm off the end of the FB and 2.5 mm scoop under the fattest string, but I don't know; that's just what it says in the book. In my life I've planed exactly one bass fingerboard. Just plain Bill 03:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

'Bow' of a fingerboard

I am unfamiliar with the term 'scooped' finger board. My EUB finger board and all fingerboards (not fretboards) I have examined (not many), are just smooth radiussed boards with no visible scooping. So what do you mean by scooping? Do you effectively mean a (slightly) concave neck?--Light current 14:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I have just checked my EUB fingerboard for flatness using a steel straight edge. In the centre of the neck, there is only a slight concavity of an estimated 0.1mm. I dont think that this could therefore be called 'scooped' or 'bowed'. To be honest, I think all EUB and bass guitar necks are made straight and any concavitiy is due to the string tension applied (which of course is pretty substantial!).

Of course some guitars and (all?) BGs have truss rods to counteract too much concavity, but classical instruments dont use these rods. If you are saying that violin, cello, viola fbs are scooped, then this would be likely to help in avoiding buzz at the finger. However, I have not heard of this technique before and Im pretty sure its not done on double basses (But perhaps Im wrong on that.)--Light current 15:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The other point to note(?) as you go to the lower pitched instruments is that the amplitude of vibration necessarily increases for the same volume. So the buzzing effect will be more noticable on the cello and is definitely noticable on the DB and EUB by putting ones ear close to the fingered position. And of course when the DB strings are really plucked hard, even the audience can hear the slapping sound!--Light current 17:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Instruments in the violin family as well as the acoustic stand-up bass typically have a lengthwise concave scoop under the strings. On a violin, it's about half a mm under the E, and 3/4 mm under the G for gut or synthetic strings. Steel strings may have less. There should be no noticeable flex under string tension; you can check with a straight edge with the fiddle strung up or taken down, and get the same picture. One way to check for bumps is to use a short stright-edge; I use a small machinist's square with about a 3" blade. Some modern makers may not put much scoop in their boards, but every fiddle, viola, or cello I've had my hands on has had a scooped fingerboard including the high-end electric. I've lost track of how many I've planed. Next time I'm in the same room as a contrabass, I'll sight down the board and see. Just plain Bill 22:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

THats very interesting Bill!. But are you sure that a DB neck does not flex when the strings are tightened? It must do somewhat unless it is of infinite stiffness. Next time you see a DB, check flatness with no string tension and then again with strings at full tension. If there's no difference, tell me what the neck is made of and we can make a fortune in the aerospace industry!--Light current 22:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Bits do indeed move when string tension is applied, and you will probably see more flex in the larger instruments. But, if you look at the side views in the picture gallery of the violin family article (which conveniently includes a picture of a double bass, even though it's not strictly a member of the family...) you will see that the fingerboard is only supported by the neck for a little more than half its length. The flex will show up mostly as raised action, that is height of string off the end of the FB will increase; and not show up very much as increased scoop in the board.

It's been a long time since I did a beam flex calculation. The neck is a lamination of ebony and maple, not an economical choice these days for struts and spars... perhaps we shouldn't go looking for startup capital just yet.

Violin necks can settle over the years under the influence of string tension, but my understanding is that the settling has more to do with the distortion of the corpus, particularly the top plate, and not very much to do with the neck itself flexing.

Just plain Bill 03:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I didnt think maple was that expensive these days with all the trees in Canada!--Light current 22:12, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

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Woah... hold on

...the EUB has been more popular, in many instances, than its acoustic counterpart...
Can this be verified? I don't think so... that is just (untrue) speculation. I don't think whoever wrote that has any idea how many people play the double bass. -Bottesini 03:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

No. Read the paragraph again carefully. Its saying the EUB (amplified DB) has had more success than the electric violin, electric cello etc. Not that its more popular the an the DB. Its not put very well tho'-- needs changing--Light current 03:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Thumb position

OK Bott. Thanks for that correction!--Light current 02:13, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

No problem. And another minor correction. The wording before my edit implied that all double basses had a string length of 42". This length is not standardized, and instruments vary. My quick rewrite probably needs to fixed for clarity. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 02:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree with your correction! 8-) Just one question: On my EUB, with my thumb still behind the neck, I can get to Bb or B possibly (on the G string) with my little finger, but after that I need to bring the thumb around to the front. Is that the same on a DB?--Light current 02:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I guess it could be possible, but it is considered poor technique. Technically you are not supposed to use your fourth finger above the octave G (you're supposed to use your 3rd instead). For example, If i were playing a piece where a high b-flat comes out of nowhere, I wouldn't play it with my fourth finger; I would put my thumb on G and put my first 2 fingers down. I don't just do this because of technique, but because it is more comfortable and just plain "better" to do it this way. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 02:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

So you'ld play the Bb with your middle finger? Is that right?--Light current 02:53, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course. I would have 3 fingers down though (+,1,2) — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 02:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

OK. Sorry! You realise youre talking to a (ex) bass guitarist, dont you - just converted to EUB? 8-)--Light current 03:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Variable scale length EUBs

Does any one know if EUBs exist where you can vary the scale length from a full 42" down to the BGs 34". I think it would be great if these were available. Could make it easier for bass guitarists to convert to DB or for children to learn on a short scale then lengthen it as they get bigger. Any thoughts?--Light current 21:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if something like that is available. I mean it doesn't really seem practical, because when you adjust the string length, you would have to somehow adjust the fingerboard to match up with the scale... maybe something out there like that exists. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 22:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No, you would have a full length finger board for the 42" scale. This would enable, of course, higher notes if you were using the 34" scale length. I think it could be made! All it really means is having a floating bridge like on a real DB and moving it a few inches either way to alter the scale! The fingering positions would of course be different, but thats what you have to learn with different scale lengths anyway. It would be a case of: one size bass fits all players! Neat or not? 8-)--Light current 22:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well then get to it! :) — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 22:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah OK. Got to find a premade fingerboard and a long piece of (maple) wood for the neck/body. I think Bob Gollihur sells fingerboards for home construction! Must try to find someonre in UK who does them. Then its a case of down to the local woodyard for the quarter sawn maple! Dont hold your breath!--Light current 00:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC

Interesting question

One interesting question (at least to me) is: how long and thin can you make the neck of a EUB before requiring reinforcement in the form of a truss rod? 8-|--Light current 00:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I know: it all depends on the strength of the wood and the tension in the strings. But has anyone got any ballpark figures? For instance: can I make a EUB with a 42" scale out of a piece of quarter sawn maple 1" thick with no truss rod? Or would that be pushing it?--Light current 02:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems

The only problem I can see at present is that as the scale length is made shorter or longer, the bridge height would need to be reduced or increased to maintain the same action (height of strings abve fingerboard). This could be done semi automatically by having the bridge slide up and down a rough ramp in the body of the EUB. Alternatively, the bridge height could just be adjusted manually as required using bridge height adjusters. This actually may be better. Piezo pickups could be mounted in this sliding bridge. 8-|--Light current 01:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be easiest to install bridge adjusters just like those that are found on quality double bass bridges. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 01:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah!--Light current 01:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Like these (just the first image that came up for a google search) [1] — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 01:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. That may be ok but I think Id need quite a lot of height adjustmenet when going from 42" down to 34". I could work it out-- but not tonight! BTW-- do you know the reason for the fancy little cutouts they use? (Happens on voilin bridges too!) %-) --Light current 01:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's some pics of my bridge: [2], [3]. It may not be apparent from the photographs, but that's a fairly "fancy" one. As for the design of the bridge, it is based on how it affects the tone of the instrument. If you used a solid wood block, it would sound different. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 18:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Xcellent pics! Are the brown things the height adjusters?--Light current 21:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, rotating them raises/lowers the height of the bridge. — ßottesiηi ^(talk) 00:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sustain

I think the EUB sustains a lot better than the DB. THis is probably due to the fact that the energy of the vibrating string is not being dissipated in producing sound as it is on a DB. I can get at least 10s of lovely sustained tone with very little decrease in volume (esp on open strings).--Light current 00:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

What about Sting?

Sting used an EUB too, on stage in the early 80s. — 217.85.179.69 (talk) 01:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, and this is already mentioned in the article. Dinobass (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)