Talk:Don't Lose The Music

Untitled

Dropping some MAAAAAJOR "citation needed" bombs on this article, which essentially fails to cite any kind of source. At all.

Especially suspect are the dB figures in the first description paragraph; exposure to sound over 85dBSPL is dangerous? It's known fact that movie theaters are calibrated to produce sound at 83dBSPL (RMS) meaning they routinely peak at well into the 90dBSPL range. Based on the claims made by the article's author, every single person in the USA should suffer from permanent hearing loss as a result of constant exposure to movie theaters.

Also, the suggestion that a nightclub plays music at 100dB is EXTREMELY suspect as well. Front row of the auditorium for a full symphony orchestra on LOUD music (such as Mahler) is about 93dB peaking. I know this because hearing aid manufacturers design their devices to accomodate a 96dB range so that a full musical experience can be truly enjoyed. If you've ever been to the symphony and sat next to the orchestra pit, you know how loud that is; I've been to plenty of nightclubs in my day and I've never been to one that was substantially louder than that. And since 6dB represents a qualitative "doubling" of level, that would mean that "well over 100dB" implies a nightclub would be what, 2-3x as loud as a Mahler piece at the symphony? Extremely doubtful.

Finally, I challenge ANYONE to prove that ANY mp3 player headphones are capable of producing 115dBSPL at the eardrum. I've heard some people listen to their music loud but that's such a preposterous figure I can't even begin to wrap my head around it.

So yeah. Citation needed's all around.

At least two blatant non sequitur fallacies, false dichotomies or fallacies of hyperbole (not sure which exactly) here. First: "Dangerous" does not mean "will lead to permanent hearing loss, guaranteed", and hearing damage, i. e., some significant level of relative hearing loss, which of course is not the same as permanent, absolute hearing loss (i. e., complete deafness, which is relatively rare, actually, even among the Deaf, many of whom retain some residual level of hearing), is quite widespread (in fact, I seem to have some mild to moderate hearing loss myself, despite consciously avoiding exposure to excessive noise; clearly it's very difficult to avoid sometimes, not least in the case of traffic noise). Dangerous simply means "dangerous", no more and no less, and of course risk of hearing damage also depends on duration of exposure, see Exposure action value. In fact, the article explains this already quite well. (Anecdotically, I might remark that cinemas in Germany at least are definitely too loud for my liking, also because at the usual level I find the sound quality to suffer due to distracting reflections in my ear, or at least that's what it sounds like to me.)

Secondly, perhaps you are not aware that orchestra musicians and conductors suffer from hearing loss, too, not only rock musicians. Orchestras can get bloody LOUD (indeed, literally deafeningly loud), as loud as any heavy metal band, except that they don't even need amplification for that. If you've ever sat beside or in front of a group of horns blaring into your ears, you might realise that. The good thing, at least for the audience, is that symphonic music isn't loud throughout, only intermittently, and reaches peak levels only occasionally for short durations. I cannot even enter a nightclub without hearing protection because I find the noise impossible to tolerate. So your OR reasoning is suspect. Moreover, you misquote. The text doesn't say "nightclubs play music at well over 100 dB", it says "Many concert venues and nightclubs play music at levels over 100 decibels".

And thirdly, if you mean "cheap default headphones" with "MP3 player headphones", that's not what the text implies: it says "It is also possible to listen to music on personal audio equipment (such as MP3 players) at levels up to 115 decibels, depending on [where you bought] the equipment" (the part in brackets has been removed in the meanwhile). Of course, you can also listen to an MP3 player with higher-quality headphones, and in fact I've seen many people do exactly that.

Check Noise-induced hearing loss and related articles such as Health effects from noise, Exposure action value or Sound pressure level for plenty of citations which prove that these numbers are not made up on the spot by some Wikipedian. In fact, the stapedius reflex is already activated at levels of 70 to 95 dB, so if you think that 85 dB isn't really all that loud, think again. There is a factual basis for the numbers in the warnings and regulations here.

Last but not least, your criticism that the article fails to cite any sources at all is blatantly wrong. Inline citations are not the only way to cite, and sources are exactly where you would look for them: At the end, under "References". --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:25, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Not the most scholarly source, but this website from the UK government quotes the ~100 dB figure for rock concerts, too, so at least this part is credible. In my experience, nightclubs are not significantly quieter. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:14, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

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