Talk:Doctor Steel

Who is he?

Shouldn't **** at least get a mention? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.61.178 (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

A very good question. On his own website, **** has among his portfolio of work some explicitly "Doctor Steel" pieces, including props, sets, artwork, songs, and videos — including material I have not been able to find elsewhere on the 'Net [redacted], which lends credibility to the belief he is indeed the same artist... and gives his fans new material to enjoy. – _•Raven  ^.talk 12:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Maintaining anonymity, citing WP:BLPNAME and WP:AVOIDVICTIM. It came to my attention that reversing the WP:BLP ban at this time could have adverse effects on people close to the artist for legal reasons. Redacted above comments to reflect continued ban. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

While I understand your caution (safer not to publish than to publish, while there is doubt), your citations seem not to apply. WP:AVOIDVICTIM refers to "individuals whose notability stems largely or entirely from being victims of another's actions", which DS is not and never has been. WP:BLPNAME says "Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event" — again not the case — and "When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed" — which was the case only until **** started posting his "Doctor Steel" pieces (including a new song with his distinctive voice) on his own website under his own name, thus openly asserting his identity. – _•Raven  ^.talk 01:40, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

WP has as far as I know not lifted the ban, and has previously locked the page for publishing his name. In this particular case, the non-anonymity of Steel would, at the present time, cause undue personal and legal hardship to someone closely related to him. I don't see any pressing reason to lift the ban at this time; surely there comes a time when being encyclopedically accurate is trumped by being a basic human being. In a year or two this might not be the case. And if **** wishes to publicly state "yes, I was Dr. Steel" then that'll put the nail in the speculation. Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

These URLs have a real world name strongly tied to Doctor Steel music and images: http://rion-vernon.squarespace.com/music-1/ and http://rion-vernon.squarespace.com/video/ 71.93.61.178 (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Those URLs have Doctor Steel music, along with the note "All music written and performed by Rion Vernon." 24.180.6.18 (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Article Polishing

I want to polish up this article and take it from Start-Class to at least B-Class (that's what I'm shooting for anyway). How would we go about polishing the article up? I guess I can scan the article for grammatical errors, as well as get some more details rounded off. Any ideas?

Pip pip cheerio!

Viraneth (talk) 05:07, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Looking at the current state of the article, I think it is probably already C-class, and have bumped it up the scale accordingly. More information on the ratings scale is at: Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:44, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks, Beeb! And thank you too, Viraneth. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 09:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

It may be C Class, but I'd like it to be even better. I want this to eventually be a featured article it's that good. I'm just having trouble thinking about what needs fixin'. Viraneth (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• I edited the order of the article to be more in line with the biographical/musician pages, putting Discography further up in the order in the article. I believe the video section needs a lot of work, and I believe the Dr. Horrible controvesry section could be made into a seperate section dealing with negative backlash towards the Dr. Steel persona, as it has not enough to do with the videos he has made to warrant being in the section about the videos.

• I am having some trouble adding references. Was the system for adding references and sources changed?

Viraneth (talk) 04:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure that the bit about the Thinking Christian blog really belongs in the Wikipedia article, and have thus far shied away from including it. For several reasons: (1) It was, as you mentioned, largely ignored, and therefore not significant, (2) it might give people the impression that Dr. Steel is anti-Christian, perhaps fostering hostility between Christians and Dr. Steel's fanbase (or giving Christians the idea that they are not welcome as fans, both untrue), and (3) the writer of the blog himself admitted that the article was largely tongue-in-cheek. To me, adding that in detracts from the article rather than polishing it.

I also don't think a section of "negative backlash towards the Dr. Steel persona" is a good idea period, for then we would of necessity have to also include the very thing that got this article put on protected status in the first place, which of course for legal reasons can't be done. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 05:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

It's inclusion was to better strive towards neutrality in the article. I, and one or two people I have asked to help me (because I want to raise the quality of this article to FA status), are going to be working on the Controversy and Video sections, and most of the rest of the article, to make it subjective and neutral. Viraneth (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's an example of a B class article on a musician [1]. I'm not an expert on article layout, but usually discography sections are more towards the bottom. There's more information, lots more, in the Manual of Style. I have to say the "Thinking Christian" bit kind of caught me off balance as well. There doesn't seem to be much of anything to say about it. If there were actual third party sources discussing the "controversy" it caused, that would be one thing, but it doesn't seem there was much attention paid to it. Being neutral in our recording of things is of course very important, but that does not mean we should give undue weight to negative information just because we want the article to be "balanced." So, if we want to see this article move up the assessment scale I would say we need these issues resolved:

• Get the article structure and layout more closely in line with the WP:MOS and/or just "flowing" a little more smoothly in how it is organized
• Remove or improve sourcing for the blog "controversies"
• double check everything against the sources to make sure all content is properly verified and accurate
• double check spelling and grammar, although it seems fairly solid in that department

I'm also going to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Assessment for any other tips they might have. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:18, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Your assessment of that section was pretty much the same as mine. I think it ought to be considered for removal. My 2c.

Thanks for your help, Beeblebrox. We do appreciate it. I for one will give the Manual of Style a good read as soon as I can. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 06:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

I commented out the "Thinking Christian" section for now. (It's still there, I just put comment tags around it.) We can put it back in if the controversy grows to anything more than one backwater blog with little outside interest. Also added in a section for Dr. Steel references in popular culture, and moved the Discography to the end. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 23:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again for the help Beeblebrox, and nice addition Jonny, I didn't know anything about that. I'll find some more sources for it, if possible, as an addition. I think the Thinking Christian portion could be removed, but I think it's best to leave it as a comment. I think spelling and grammar is fine, but I'll have some people look it over a few times, just in case. I'm going through the style manual while I study for my botany exam, so it will be a while before I can fully comprehend all of it (there is quite a lot; almost as much as the book of style for the English language). In the mean time, I will also be going through the sources, mainly so I can try to see if a better source can be found.

Viraneth (talk) 03:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Incorrectness

Doctor Steel is not just a musician, he uses the music as a platform to spread his message: that the world is in need of change. It is NOT just viral marketing or a stage persona. The purpose of Doctor Steel's persona, and the army of toy soldiers, is to make the world a better place, where fun and creativity, not just going to school so you can get a job so you can get married and have 2.5 kids, are important. Doctor Steel's message is that the world is an ugly, un-fun place in need of change and each and every one of us has the power to change it.

We, the army of toy soldiers, are not a fan club, not a street team, and certainly not a viral marketing apparatus. There is a large thread about this wikipedia article on toysoldiersunite.com, and we continue to be outraged at this. I would fix it myself, but the article is locked, presumably because people have in the past tried to fix it to make it ACCURATE.

The army of toy soldiers doesn't want to just promote Dr. Steel. We promote Dr. Steel so people will see his message. If Dr. Steel was only interested in making money and getting famous, he would accept a record deal (which he has been offered multiple times), which he steadfastly refuses to do because the record companies are faceless evil corporations only interested in money. Dr. Steel also does not except donations, which he would do if he was only interested in money. The "make a contribution" button on Doctorsteel.com takes you to the toy soldier sign up page.

Please fix this. Every person who hears of Dr. Steel and turns to wikipedia is being mislead and misinformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.2.67 (talk) 02:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The article has been locked, not because Wikipedia wanted to prevent people from "fixing" the article, but because people in the past had tried repeatedly to vandalize it.

Whether or not the Toy Soldiers are or are not a fan club or street team is a subject of differing opinions, even among the Toy Soldiers. There are many in the Toy Soldiers who are there to promote Dr. Steel as a musician. Others who promote his viral videos. Others who are there just to have fun with a great group of like-minded individuals. And still others, "True Believers", who treat Dr. Steel's "message" as gospel in the religious sense of the word. No matter how you write this article, there are always going to be some who are not going to be satisfied. But I think the article as it stands now accurately reflects who the Toy Soldiers are as a group, while satisfying Wikipedia's requirement for objective articles without "in-universe" references. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 06:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The only problem is that most of the people who have tried to edit have been putting unverifiable, malicious, or just flat out incorrect information. Wikipedia is about neutrality, sorry anonymous user. I have yet to hear any dissent about the wikipedia page, and if you'd like to input your opinion, there is a thread for it on other websites for discussion of ideas and concerns. We're trying to be unbiased and neutral with this, so please, try to contribute as neutrally as possible.

Viraneth (talk) 18:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Assessment comment

I think C Class is fine (reassessment can be requested of course) since I'm worried about the images: File:DrSteelMadScientist.jpg and File:Paem2.jpg have no fair-use rationales, and the claim that File:ToyScout.jpg is unsourced at best. Hekerui (talk) 22:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Steel himself sent Wikipedia File:DrSteel robot band.jpg, and gave his permission for that image and the other images in this article to be used under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License, as they are all works for hire that he owns the copyright to. I'm not sure why there's still a problem. If need be, however, I am sure he can be contacted to clarify. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 23:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

The images are fine. And as for me, I don't think C Class is fine. I want to work on this article's quality until I literally cannot do anymore to improve it. It may be rather short sighted of me, but it's good practice for writing papers too. If you wish to contact Doctor Steel over the validity of Jonnybgoode's claims, his email is freely available.

Just my 2 and 1/42 cents

Viraneth (talk) 02:12, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

With regard to the images on this page (with the exception of the first one); Dr. Steel gave permission for them to be used, but Wikipedia wants him to specifically say they can be released under a CC-BY-SA-3.0 license. In regards to this, Dr. Steel wrote me a couple of days ago and said, "I have been very busy indeed and have not been able to provide you with the requested assets, [but] I shall aim to generate a message regarding the photographic permission for Wikipedia once my schedule allows." --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Reference Deletion

Can anyone answer why three perfectly good references were deleted as "one-off" references? I really would like to know why, as those were perfectly good references. I would restore them myself but I'd rather wait for some input on this. Viraneth (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

This seemed capricious to me, especially since it came from an anonymous editor. Virtually all popular culture sections are one-off references; that's the nature of pop culture references. I added the section back in, and changed the wording slightly to mirror the popular culture section of other bands. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 01:21, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright. I was just concerned on that. Thanks Jonny. --Viraneth (talk) 01:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Someone may come along and remove it again. Hopefully next time they'll not be anonymous and leave a rational reason for it. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:06, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Is this article about real life?!

Never before have I ever seen the word fictitious pop up in an article so many times, is this really necessary? Just by skimming over the article I found it in there seven, maybe eight times. The least that could be done is use a thesaurus, or maybe not use it so much? Take the part where it talks about his stage persona, the phrase stage persona implies it is not real already, it doesn't need fictitious thrown in there a couple more times to back it up? felinoel (talk) 14:42, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm only counting 5 instances of the word, but I'll have a look and see if another word could be substituted. You have to remember that this is Wikipedia and most if not all pages are a collaborative work; I know the word "fictitious" was inserted a couple of times by redactors after I had rewritten sections. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 01:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Metal-Mighty, 10 April 2011

Reference link #4 (http://v-m-u.com/VMU_DR_STEEL.html) is dead and shall be deleted.

Metal-Mighty (talk) 16:19, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

A shame that the nature of the Internet means references eventually disappear. I've found an interview that can replace that one, however. Thanks for pointing it out. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 19:24, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Per WP:ROT I don't think the reference link should be removed except to replace it with a working link suitable to source the claim. It sounds like Jonnybgoode44 is going to do just that, but until then the dead link should remain. Monty₈₄₅ 19:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I found the article just now on the Wayback Machine. And the new article I found today seems to be a previously unnoticed follow-up interview. So I fixed the link, and we're all good. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 20:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Recent revisions by JzG

There was recently a spate of revisions by Wikipedian JzG, which were extremely critical and drastic. It's not surprising, since JzG was one of the people most opposed to including Dr. Steel on Wikipedia in the first place, over a year ago in the AfD discussion. I would like to address some of the particular (or should I say peculiar) edits that he made.

• He removed reference to Dr. Steel having a rivethead and goth following, stating, "A rivethead is a steampunk fan, that's redundant. No evidence of goth, only really steampunk". I personally know a lot of goths who are fans of Dr. Steel, they would laugh in this man's face. And as far as rivethead being redundant, it is fairly obvious that JzG does not know his subject here; he knows neither the rivethead nor steampunk cultures, as they are distinct and very different groups.

• Dr. Steel as a writer. JzG wrote: "oh please. Writer? On his own website?" Steel has also published at least one paper on the subject of transhumanism, which is mentioned in the article. However, I am letting his edit on that point stand at the moment.

• Dr. Steel being cited as an archetypal example of steampunk music. JzG writes, "um, that's actually just promotional." Hardly. The fact that Steel was cited as a central musician of the steampunk music scene was the core argument for having his article remain on Wikipedia in the first place, and is therefore most relevant. These are also all from outside, objective sources and not from promotional material.

• Removal of the entire "Controversy" section with the snark, "The word you are looking for is nontroversy", and a link to an obscure British comedian. I think the fact that this was noted by such major media as Wired magazine counts for something.

• Removal of the Popular Culture section, with the comment that this was all "original research." Every one of these references are documented, and this section is in no way different than the Popular Culture sections on hundreds of other pages here.

I have reverted some of these edits, others I have left. In the future, since this is a contested and often vandalized (and hence semi-protected) page, I think it would be a far better idea for moderators to make discussions on proposed edits on this discussion page, or make edit requests as Metal-Mighty did above, and which is what this page exists for, rather than making sweeping slashes and leaving snarky comments.

One edit JzG made that I reverted, and then reverted back, and wouldn't mind some input on, is his change of "popular" to "active" in the first paragraph, and his position that the statement required a neutral point of view. After making the reversion, I realized what it was he was trying to say. I objected to the change initially because I didn't think the word "active" was entirely accurate; Dr. Steel rarely actually attends steampunk (or other scene) events. Popular is more accurate, but doesn't sound neutral. Suggestion for a different word to use would be appreciated. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 02:23, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Real name

It's currently listed as '*****', but where does it say this is his name? Shouldn't there be a link to some article? 195.73.208.129 (talk) 14:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing that out. This has been removed several times over the years as speculative as well as being against Wikipedia's policy, and is the main reason Wikipedia admins locked the page... but people keep posting it there anyway. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 16:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

These URLs have a real world name strongly tied to Doctor Steel music and images: http://rion-vernon.squarespace.com/music-1/ and http://rion-vernon.squarespace.com/video/ Those URLs have Doctor Steel music, along with the note "All music written and performed by Rion Vernon." 24.180.6.18 (talk) 21:48, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

File:DrSteelMadScientist.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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‎Retirement

With Doctor Steel's Disappearance in 2011, what's Wikipedia policy about rewriting intro paragraphs in past tense (i.e., "was a self-published American musician")? --Jay (Histrion) (talk • contribs) 02:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Now that official word has come from Steel himself, I have gone through and made those changes. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 05:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The 'official' word is nowhere to be found on the internet. He was kidnapped by extraterrestrial forces, if you knew his music and his creed that would be crystal clear.

Unsigned "Name" removed due to WP:BIO and consensus of admins. Continued vandalism of the Dr. Steel page and its talk page will not be tolerated, nor will vandalism of other peoples' posts. User reported. Link in article fixed, previous link was broken because TSU revamped their site, not because "it was aliens." --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:24, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

One other thing: Not signing your posts is one thing, but attempting to cover your tracks by removing an auto-signature is quite unacceptable behavior. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit Wars

Please do not engage in edit wars on this page. Any significant changes to the text should first be proposed on the talk page and consensus reached by all interested moderators. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 03:44, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Alien abduction theory

I have directly contacted the head of TSU, who received the resignation letter from Dr. Steel. As this was a personal correspondence, she does not wish it being posted publicly other than in the TSU forums. However several other people who have had past correspondence with Dr. Steel, including myself, have examined the document and all agree that the style and handwriting is his.

I have added a parenthetical note representing the minority viewpoint that will hopefully satisfy anyone who still thinks Dr. Steel was "abducted by aliens," while still keeping the official TSU position intact. Hopefully this will be an end to the matter. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 17:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:FANSITE

An anonymous poster removed the link to Dr. Steel's official fan club, Toy Soldiers Unite, saying it violated WP:LTA. After perusing WP:LTA, I didn't see any way the link pertained and therefore undid the edit.

However my curiosity got the better of me, and in searching Wikipedia I discovered WP:FANSITE, which I believe is what the anonymous poster intended to apply, rather than WP:LTA.

In this case, however, I believe the inclusion of mention of the Toy Soldiers in the article as part of the mythos warrants the link. Also, since WorldDominationToys.com and DoctorSteel.com have gone down, ToySoldiersUnite.com is where much of the information and media that was on those two sites were archived and much of the background for Dr. Steel now resides, and it is therefore now relevant.

Also, WP:FANSITE says, "most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." TSU was officially endorsed by Dr. Steel himself and originally created and run by one of his most trusted friends.

If anyone has any objections or opposing viewpoints, please share them here so consensus can be established.--Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 22:13, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Calving "Army of Toy Soldiers"

I calved off the section for the Army of Toy Soldiers, as the group is moving on beyond just being a fan club, and it makes this article a bit more concise now and just pertaining to Dr. Steel himself. Hopefully there will be no objections. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

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Merge proposal

I propose that Dr. Steel (album), Dr. Steel II: Eclectic Boogaloo, People of Earth (album), and The Dr. Steel Collection all be merged into this article. None of those four articles have been edited in over three years and they have very few sources, therefore they are not that notable on Wikipedia. 2601:8C:4001:DCB9:4556:FA74:B23C:37BD (talk) 04:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure the fact that the articles haven't been edited in over three years has any bearing on anything. They haven't been edited because there haven't been any changes. There are a lot of static pages on Wikipedia. And the performer retired, so there's not likely to be any new changes forthcoming. --Jonnybgoode44 (talk) 04:32, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

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2019 Mecanic Youtube Video / Streaming Album

Amuseio AB uploaded a youtube video with the labelled artist as Dr. Steel (dated 18 Jul 2019). The song/album is also appearing on Google Play's Dr. Steel page. The description leads me to think this is very likely a misattribution, or a tribute to Dr. Steel. The video description for reference:

   Provided to YouTube by Amuseio AB
   
   Mecanic · Dr. Steel
   
   Mecanic
   
   ℗ Derek Steel
   
   Released on: 2019-07-19
   
   Writer: Derek Steel
   Artist: Dr. Steel
   Music  Publisher: Copyright Control
   
   Auto-generated by YouTube.

Does anyone know the details behind this? Also what is the best way to add this to the page making it clear it's a likely misattribution? - AnnanFay (talk) 16:04, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Removal from streaming sites

Apparently 2 months ago, all of his music was removed from Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube music. May be worth a mention Gruetopia (talk) 23:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)