Talk:Dmitry Bortniansky

Rewrite

I rewrote almost every sentence, mostly to get rid of somewhat odd language. His operas were added, and I will still add a list of his better known choral and instrumental works.

Also, as an informative article, more should be added about his use of classicism as well as folk tunes throughout his compositions.--tufkaa 01:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Attempts to push nationalist agenda

Someone constantly changes the name of the composer to it's Ukrainian way. I remind you that Dmitry Bortiansky lived mostly in Saint Petersburg, where he also died, and spoke mostly Russian. Not only that, but when his music was released in the Germanic-language countries, his name was spelled in the Russian way, Dmitri. I dont see any logic to the attempts to change his name into the Ukrainian formulation but pushing nationalistic agenda. I was offered a "concensus", but i dint seem to see what concensus could come here. Shpakovich (talk) 12:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Bortniansky was Russian composer of Polish origin by his father, he did not speak Ukrainian at all but Russian and Polish. It does not matter he was born in Ukraine, Bulgakov was born in Kiev, this does not make him "Ukrainian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.125.6.1 (talk) 12:01, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Bartók, Rachmaninoff, to name a few, lived, worked, and died in the United States, and no one in their right mind would call them "American" composers. Bortniansky was a Ukrainian composer who lived, worked, and died in Russia, and probably he's the most famous Ukrainian composer who ever lived. Calling him a "Russian" composer is misleading. But I'll skip the lecture and just cite a source: the big article on Bortniansky in the New Grove calls him "Ukrainian composer, singer and music director, active in Russia", and they cite his name as Bortnyans'ky, Dmytro Stepanovych, with the Russian version in parentheses. We really should just do what other reliable sources give. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 13:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

You try to involve different cases. Those who you mentioned became well known composers before they moved to the US, and when they moved they moved with the names they became famous with. Dont forget they spoke Russian and called themselves Russians/

Bortiansky became famous IN Russia, he wrote in all languages BUT Ukrainian, and in the western media he is called Dmitry ([1],[2], [3]). He lived in Russia, died there, spoke Russian, and he never heard of such state as Ukraine, simple because there wasn't one. So he is a Russian composer of Ukrainian ethnicity. Just like Anton Rubinstein is a Russian composer of Jewish ethnicity, or Paul Simon is an American composer of Jewish ethnicity (according to your logic he should be changed to Shaul Shimmon). Taras Shevchenko is a Ukrainian poet and not a Russian poet of Ukrainian ethnicity, even thought he lived and died in Sankt Peterburg, because he wrote Ukrainian. Dmitri B. Spoke Russian. He never had one Ukrainian song, while alot of Russian. In the rest of Europe he was known as a composer from Sankt Peterburg. There he became famous. Shpakovich (talk) 14:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

My "logic" is to use reliable sources, and in so doing, follow Wikipedia policy. Dmitry Bortnyansky was a Ukrainian composer active in Russia. His career is similar to hundreds of composers in European history who received their childhood training in their homelands, and then emigrated elsewhere, where they made their fame -- no one would call Lassus an "Italian" composer, or Morales an "Italian" one, and neither should you call Bortnyansky a "Russian" composer. Shpakovich, this isn't that big a deal. We need a clarification that he was "Ukrainian" -- for he was -- but active in Russia. Grove gets it right. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 14:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hhh i used reliable sources to. Anyone can call others sources: "Unreliable, NaNaBanana, i cant hear you". He was a Russian composer of Ukrainian ethnicity, i on purpouse havent deleted the article from WikiProject Ukraine and added in the article the line he was of Ukrainian ethnicity. If he would write music in Ukraine and call himself Dmytro, he would. BUT, he caled himself Dmitry, and he didnt have anything Ukrainian in his music. In the whole world he was Dmitry. Again, you talk about the model of Taras Shevchenco and i talked about it. If you want we could write: a Ukrainian-Russian composer, but thats the same thing. I didnt write on him as of Russian ethnicity, but Russia-n, which means someone from Russia. Shpakovich (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. I dont see the difference but if you like it more, thats fine. Shpakovich (talk) 14:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello, banned user. Yes, most of the edits to this article have been attempts to push a nationalist agenda, but shall we please just use what reliable sources say? I have added "Ukrainian composer active in Russia", and cited the excellent current article in the New Grove. Hope this helps, Antandrus (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Hello, this is another user who opposes attempts to push nationalist agenda. I agree with Shpakovich. FYI DB's ethnicity was Ruthenian rather than Ukrainian, if you insist on it being mentioned. I think that should be more relevant than what the political map looks like over 150 years after his death. I changed the article accordingly. I provided a reference and many others can be easily found, including ones on the origins of his family name. The reference to Grove is not easily verifiable, and I doubt the editors there would have any idea about this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sergivs-en (talk • contribs) 05:21, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Grove is a reliable source. "Hymntime" is not a recognized, scholarly, peer-reviewed publication. Please see the reliable source policy. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 06:29, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

You are not addressing the issue. DB's birthplace is not being questioned by anyone. What does "Ukrainian" mean in this context? What does nationality mean? How is Grove relevant to this particular question? But feel free to quote the article if you have access to it. I think your edits are basically vandalism and an arbiter should decide this. Sergivs-en (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I've posed the question here. Oh, you might want to read what vandalism is and is not; it's pretty important stuff. Antandrus (talk) 00:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I have read it and I take it back, your actions are definitely not vandalism as defined there. My apologies. I think they would qualify as disruptive editing, though.Sergivs-en (talk) 02:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

P.S.:And your edit summary ("arguing with a nationalist is like wrestling with a pig") is quite rude. Well, arguing with you hasn't been especially pleasant, either. What makes this argument especially bizarre is that you are the one who's pushing Ukrainian nationalist agenda, and, by the way, I'm Ukrainian.Sergivs-en (talk) 09:32, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I was rude. So were you. I'm sorry. My editing is in no way disruptive; all I am doing is pushing for a reliable source, and the most reliable source we have -- the article by Bortniansky expert Marika Kuzma -- says "Ukrainian composer, singer and music director, active in Russia." I'm pushing no agenda except that we keep our articles in line with what reliable sources say.

We have had problems with banned editors disrupting this article (one started this thread -- he's banned for pushing a nationalist agenda). I may have assumed the worst of you because you followed on after him. I'm sorry. Antandrus (talk) 14:24, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Adding on a bit -- one of the things I admire about the New Grove (available at a library in 29 volume hard copy by the way) is the elegant way they usually handle nationality of people who do not remain in one place. One formulation they use is "Composer of x origin, active in y." That's especially true when someone leaves their place of birth early, and if they adopt the language of their new home. Other times they will say "x composer, active in y." Handel is a good analogy; he's German, but he made his career, his home, his fame, in England. We've had a lot of people edit the article to make him "German" or "English" or some combination; after a lot of back-and-forth we've settled on "German-British". Anyway -- I think the way you've done the lead is good. Antandrus (talk) 14:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Old Style/New Style date indication

I suggest the use of O.S./N.S. indication to clarify date figures concerning pre-revolutionary Russia. (At least, the ones with month and day.) In the 18th and 19th centuries Russia was one of the few countries to stick to the Julian calendar - using different sources one frequently is labored to double-check which patricular calendar style was implied by the authors. Emi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.12.180.241 (talk) 13:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I've put the birth and death dates in the lead, with os and ns dates for the death date. But for the birth date I haven't discovered whether "28 October" is a Julian or Gregorian date. I'd assume the former, as there's no source I can find that's translated it to the Gregorian equivalent, 8 November. But I don't know that for sure. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Do either of you know the source for the 28 October date? The article in the most recent New Grove (2001) (by Marika Kuzma) only gives 1751 for his birth; normally they are up-to-date on such details, and if they don't give a birthdate it is usually because it is not known. Slonimsky in Baker's (early 1990s) also gives only "1751". Antandrus (talk) 02:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It was in the article from Day 1 (8 June 2004). I’ve just asked the creater, User:JamesTeterenko about the source of the information. The date now appears in many places, judging from a Google search, but I’ve seen nothing that explains its original source. It’s just possible that they’ve all got the information from Wikipedia. I'll wait to hear from James, but in the meantime I'll mark it as "citation required". -- JackofOz (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The two sources that JamesTeterenko has just inserted support the birth year 1751, but make no mention of the precise date 28 October. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Take another look, they both do. Before the paragraphs start, they both give his full birthdate. -- JamesTeterenko (talk) 18:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

My error. Yes, they both do. (Odd ... I could have sworn I checked those 2 links out, and they weren't the ones that are there now. But the edit history tells me otherwise. Maybe time to see my shrink.) Sorry about that. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd really like to know where those 2 sources got their information from. The date "28 October 1751" is now all over the internet as his birthdate, in most cases mirrors of our article, but I've found nowhere that even discusses which calendar it uses, let alone provides the corresponding date in the other calendar. If the authoritative music references aren't prepared to state his exact birthdate - in any calendar - how can Find-a-Grave be so sure? I'm going to remove Find-a-Grave as a source, because it gets its info from other places and can't be regarded as a reliable source. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is a very weak B (borderline Start -- you decided); it is sketchy and provides basic background, but it does actually cover most of the topics I expect to see in a composer article (which is why I tip towards B). My full review is on the Comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 22:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Dmitry Bortniansky: 2009-02-14== This is an assessment of article Dmitry Bortniansky by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Sketchy: no personal details, little on early compositions. (No evidence that this data is missing, although I can see that it might not be known.) ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Again sketchy: no personal details. ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. List is incomplete (or inconsistent with text). ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Minimal; could use elaboration on all counts: style, public and critical appreciation. Historiography is decent. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) An image; no sound. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article is unreferenced and uncited. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ok for now. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) ===Summary=== This is a fairly sketchy biography. I get the feeling more could be written, but no one has gotten around to doing so. Most of the content is sketchy, and I suspect it can be elaborated. However, as the article lists no references, and has no inline citations, it could also be entirely fabricated. WP:V, anyone? Article is a very weak B. Magic♪piano 22:41, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:41, 14 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 13:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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KHMELNYTSKYIA

• Dear KHMELNYTSKYIA, I think, you have to read Wikipedia:No original research. Wikipedia does not publish original thought. Articles may not contain any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the reliable sources themselves. It is exactly what you do. You try to find any information about Bortnyansky as "Ukrainian composer" [1] to reach your own conclusion. That's why you have used a large number of third-party and indirect sources like Mikhail Blinnikov, Orest Subtelny, Bohdan Wynar, Paul Yuzy (The Ukrainians in Manitoba: a social history) etc., which have nothing to do with reliable sources, if we are talking about Bortiansky and the history of music.
• According to all reliable Encyclopedias Bortnyansky was a Russian composer of Ukrainan/Rusyn descent. See for example: The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, The Cambridge History of Music, The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music, Greene's Biographical Encyclopedia of Composers etc.
• The whole Bortnyansky's connection with Ukraine is based only on his ethnicity and birthplace. He leaved his family in Glukhov when he was seven years old. After studying in Italy Bortnyansky lived fast the whole his life in Saint Petersburg, wrote music for the Russian court of Chatherine the Great and was called a Russian Palestrina. Best regards, Ушкуйник (talk) 07:40, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Respected Ушкуйник, you should probably read the rules better, including Wikipedia:Reliable sources. According to him wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources like articles, monographs and books. I am complying this rule. Look at my sources:

• Strohm, Reinhard (2001). The Eighteenth-century Diaspora of Italian Music and Musicians. Brepols. p. 227. ISBN 9782503510200. Reinhard Strohm is a Professor of Music in Yale University and University of Oxford. His book is definitely reliable.
• Rzhevsky, Nicholas (1998). The Cambridge Companion to Modern Russian Culture. Cambridge University Press. p. 51. ISBN 9780521477994. Nicholas Rzhevsky is a researcher of Russian Culture, Ph.D. Princeton University, Professor. He also writes an important thing: The musical element of the rituals, the language, the pronunciation of the services [in Russian Orthodoxy music], were all strongly Ukrainianized, becoming in their turn traditional and binding. (p. 51). As William Burianyk notes, Ukrainian words was changed to Russian, but theme and melody remained Ukrainian. Richard Taruskin also designates unconditional Ukrainian cultural influence. It debunks the claim that Bortnyansky had no connection with Ukraine.

• Unger, Melvin P. (2010). Historical Dictionary of Choral Music. Scarecrow Press. p. 43. ISBN 9780810873926. According to him Bortniansky is "Ukrainian composer, singer, active in Russia". Melvin Unger is music pedagogue and musicologist, the Director of the School of Music at the State University of New York.
• The New Encyclopaedia Britannica: Macropaedia : Knowledge in depth claim: "Ukrainian choral music reached its peak in the 18th and early 19th centuries in the works of Maksym Berezovsky, Dmytro Bortnyansky, and Artem Vedel."
• And finally Stanley Sadie, The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (p. 70) also describe Bortnyansky as Ukrainian composer, not even calling him as Russian. By the way, Stanley Sadie was an influential and prolific British musicologist, music critic, and editor. The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians is one of the largest reference works on western music. Other examples:
• Slavonic Encyclopaedia (p. 110)
• The International Cyclopedia of Music and Musicians (p. 260).

So, all these sources are non-Ukrainian, independent and reliable. Orest Subtelny, David Ware Stowe, Historical Dictionary of Ukraine are simply additional sources, but they are also reliable. Nevertheless, I do not deny that Bortnyansky was a Russian composer too. We should leave 2 belongings: Ukrainian and Russian.--KHMELNYTSKYIA (talk) 19:22, 14 June 2019 (UTC)