Talk:Danny Kirwan/Archives/2015

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Can the person who thinks this article needs immediate attention please outline his / her problem with the article. Cheap insults in edit summaries are neither constructive nor pleasant. Bretonbanquet 22:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't take it as an insult. The article needs work. Not a single inline cite to be found...poetic adjectives abound... Look at this paragraph:

During the late 1970s Danny's health deteriorated significantly and since then he has played no further part in the music industry. During the 1980s and 1990s, Danny endured an indeterminate period of homelessness living in London, although more recent anecdotal reports suggest he is now more settled thanks to the support of his family. Despite the 27 years since Kirwan's last recording, there is a small but steady stream of fans discovering his music through the Fleetwood Mac back catalogue, many of whom have been saddened by his apparent decline. However there is a suspicion among some in the fan community that Kirwan is unaware of any popular interest in him, as he lives a life far removed from his Fleetwood Mac days.

"more recent anecdotal reports"??? "suspicion among some in the fan community"??...a couple of glaring WP:NOR vios there. The article is balanced well. But needs a POV shave, at least 25 inlines and some reduction of the NOR. The attention=yes is to promote a positive contribution to the article. Lots of articles are tagged for attention. If this one were to go through a peer or GA review right now it would get raked. If you feel some sort of ownership of the article then by all means...it's all yours to apply the req'd repairs. Good luck. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks for your input. WP:OWN is something I run from, but no-one else ever has much to do with this one, and I effectively wrote it myself, so forgive me if I take things a bit seriously with this one. I take your points on that particular paragraph - I'm not ecstatic with it either. The point is that anecdotal reports in a lot of cases are all we are going to get. The alternative is removing the information altogether. It's an improvement on the previous quote from a fan... You'll have to explain to me what an 'inline' is though. This will never be GA status because there are simply too many information black holes. I take your point on the woolly sourcing, but the alternative is removal of those sections and adding one-sentence bare-fact statements. Such as "Kirwan was homeless for a while." Don't know for how long, where, why, what's happened since, nothing. That information is not available, except in sparse reports from unreliable sources. Bretonbanquet 23:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, inline cites - I get you. I hate them. I could add 500, or none, without anything being achieved. Suggest some statements that might need cites, and I'll do them. 99% of the article is sourcable. Bretonbanquet 23:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The lines that jump out as needing a ref, in any article, are the direct quotes. They are usually the easiest to find too. Plus any text that contains a powerfully descriptive adjectives.

Just Browsing through quickly I found the lines:

"Although Fleetwood Mac's hit singles from 1969-70 were all Green-penned tunes, Kirwan's style showed through thanks to Green allowing space for his protegé to shine. He took the solo on Oh Well Pt 1 and joined Green in the dual guitar harmonies on Albatross. The final hit from this line-up, The Green Manalishi, also provided Kirwan with opportunity to step forward, although Green generally stole the show."

They read like a first hand account. Or perhaps something from a review? That's more of an example of OR than a {cn} but it reads so "matter of factly" that some sort of reference should be in place to remove the WP:NOR feel of it.

"Kirwan and Welch did not always get on well personally, but musically their styles gelled superbly. The last two Fleetwood Mac albums to feature Kirwan showed a fast-growing maturity in his songwriting and playing, his songs taking up about half of each album. His sound also showed strongly in several songs written by Welch and McVie, as they developed the vibe that would propel the band towards superstardom in the mid-1970s."

"Before a concert on a US tour, Kirwan and Welch rowed over tuning and Kirwan flew into a rage, smashing his guitar and refusing to go onstage. Instead he watched while Mac struggled through without him, only to offer criticism afterwards. Kirwan had to be sacked by Fleetwood, who had hitherto been the only other member still speaking to him."

...Are 2 more example similar to the first one. They are written, very poetically, like an ey-witness report. Maybe a {citebook} ref is available to use as foundations for those types of atatements. They all read like they were paraphrased from an FM biography? Maybe? Like you, I don't think the content should be removed. But the article should maintain some amount of encyclopedic integrity. People should know who this artist was. For many Wikipedia is the only sourced for interesting bios of long forgotten guitar heroes. Most people don't know there was a Fleetwood Mac prior to the Rumours album. But they should. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very helpful, thanks. I've spotted a couple of things just now and changed them - POV words etc. I will do more tomorrow. I understand your point that some of it looks like it's paraphrased from a FM biography. It's not, but I guess I wrote it in that style - it's basically a mixture of what I've read over many years. This was the first thing I wrote for Wikipedia and I did things I wouldn't do now. I can perhaps find a couple of more reliable quotes on the homeless period, and I can certainly cite the direct quotes, and cite other stuff that looks a bit like OR. I hadn't considered that anyone else would think Kirwan was worth creating a perfect article about, but of course, he is - so I'll try to do that. Obviously anyone else's input is welcome. Bretonbanquet 23:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

How reliable is "The Penguin"? I've been nrowing through it quickly and it looks like a very good, detailed site(albeit a "taboo" fansite) Can content from it pass WP:V? Just curious.Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 21:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good, reliable site, but still a fansite. I am only using the one-to-one interviews with band members, which I imagine won't cause any problems...? Bretonbanquet 22:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

This is an invitation to the anonymous editor who keeps deleting the reference to Kirwan's nationality from the intro paragraph, to discuss why he / she thinks that this is irrelevant to a biography article. If this editor believes that Kirwan is not British, please discuss it here rather than making frequent revert edits, which is considered vandalism. Bretonbanquet 17:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dannygate.jpg

Image:Dannygate.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)