Talk:Daniel Hale Williams

Comment

Before I edit the article I offer this for comment. I am the writer of the non fiction book A President in the Family published by Greenwood in 2001. My fraternal grandfather's mother was the cousin of Daniel Hale Williams. D.H. Williams and his biographer, Helen Buckler, corresponded with my grandfather, Howard D. Woodson (1876-1962), who was born in Pittsburgh PA. H. D. Woodson worked in Chicago for a short time then after 1908 worked in Washington DC. A high school there is named in his honor. My great great great grandfather, Thomas Williams bought a Bible and recorded a family tree there. My grandfather likely never saw the Bible but information contained there was passed to him. My grandfather's great grandmother, Catherine, the wife of Thomas Williams, lived until 1898 (age 92) and likey kept family connections alive. As of 1948 the Bible was in the possession of Charles Kelly of Pittsburgh, son of Elizabeth Williams Kelly(grandson of Thomas Williams). --- According to Buckler, the ancestors of D H Williams lived in York County PA. My great great great great grandfather, Samuel Williams lived in Hellam Twsp. York County in 1810 as per the U.S. Census. Robert Hale lived there as well along with other Williams family members in mixed race families. Samuel Wiiliams lived in Harrisburgh PA in 1830 according to the Census. In 1830 a Daniel Williams lived in Lewistown PA. Thomas Williams is placed in Lewistown by a source other than the Census. Daniel Hale Williams was born in Hollidaysburg PA in 1856. The family slowly migrated west. --- The father of D H Williams was Daniel Williams (mother Sarah Price Williams) and according to Buckler his grandfather was Daniel Williams Sr. (mother was likey a daughter of Robert Hale). --- Samuel Williams was the great grandfather of D H Williams. The father of Samuel Williams was Joseph Williams, who was born in 1760 according the information handed to my grandfather. According to the U. S. Census Joseph Williams (a free negro)lived on Cresson's Alley in Philadelphia in 1790. According to the Constitution Center, which was built at the site that once included Cresson's Alley, Joseph Williams was a painter, presumably a house painter, and not an artist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bww1 (talk • contribs) .

Thanks! Most of this genealogicial information is beyond the scope of an encyclopedia, though. --Dhartung | Talk 02:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I've reverted the article to this revision, as the final cut-and-paste action was not caught by the vandalism bot. It seems to be a copyvio as well. I had to clean up this Talk page, too, it appears to be rarely visited! --Dhartung | Talk 02:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I noticed quite a few instances of vandalism from Naconkantari, who's removing relevant links from several pages, including this one, because they do not conform to his politically correct beliefs. I am in the process of reverting his acts of vandalism. 69.118.97.26 21:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The above user is apparently a fan of www.brinkster.com, which hosts an anonymously authored list of debunkings of claims of African-American inventors/discoverers. I cautioned him that not only is brinkster.com a problematic source and probably not reliable-source policy compliant, but . Most inventions are minor improvements on something that has gone before and this is the case with Williams's surgical advance at a time when pericardial surgery was being advanced. --Dhartung | Talk 06:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the Brinkster site is not "anonymous," the site is run by Ian Taggart (itag@adelphia.net). Furthermore, all of the facts on the site are sourced. Just as Wikipedia isn't an original source of information but a repository of reliable sources, so too is Brinkster.

This article should be locked. Someone keeps editing the introduction, saying that Williams "performed the first open-heart surgery" and this is easily found to be untrue. "invention is a complex thing not given to 'did / did not' debates," sure. But this isn't invention we're talking about here; it's "performing" open-heart surgery, and Dr. Hale was not the first.

Race

Dr. Dan's race is a sticky problem. He obviously identified throughout his life as an African-American, but also as a light-skinned black. There has always, and then especially, been a bit of a divide between lighter-skinned African Americans, particularly those who could "pass" or intermarry, and those with darker skin. But I don't think his father can easily be classed as "white". According to one genealogical site he was marked with a "B" on a census form (earlier in his life he was marked with an "M" for mulatto), and I've often seen him described as a "free Negro". His ancestry was a mix of African-American, Scots-Irish, and German-American. Williams's mother was part black and part Indian. Upshot: I think we should still describe him as "African-American". He certainly wasn't 50% white and 50% black in the usual modern sense of the term. --Dhartung | Talk 06:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

People don't even want to except 50 - 50 as mulatto. Barack Obama Just because someone wants to be something, does not make it plausible. Shakam 03:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

"Mulatto" is unacceptable in U.S. dialect, so we cannot use it. Alternatives include "mixed race" or multiracial, which is the title of our article. Since the contemporary term used for him was generally "negro", it seems like labeling him African-American is simplest. "African-American with a multiracial background" might be most correct. --Dhartung | Talk 04:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Who are you to decide what is acceptable in U.S. dialect? At any rate, if you label him African-American you're adhering to socially constructed "racism." He was not, the malapropistic word, "African-American."

I would however accept black/white multiracial. Shakam 05:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This is why I erased any labeling of "race." Daniel Hale Williams was a surgeon, not a black surgeon, african american surgeon, mulatto surgeon or anything of the like. He was a human surgeon. As that is the only "race" that exists in Homo Sapiens, and that is what should be allowed regardless of heritage.

What about his paternal grandfather and his mother? What was the percentage of their blackness? If you know the answer to that question, you can calculate how black Williams really was. The math is pretty straightforward; his blackness would be equal to (0.25 x (blackness % of paternal grandfarther)) + (0.50 x (blackness % of mother). The 0.25 term of his paternal grandmother is omitted as it is 0 (her blackness % is 0%). If it's more than 50%, Williams was black. Tavernsenses (talk) 16:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

You are confronting the absurdity of the socially constructed idea of race. Williams' family may have been "free Negros" before the Revolution, but Pennsylvania abolished slavery and its African-descended residents were all free after the Revolution, certainly by 1856, when Williams was born. "Blackness" wasn't determined strictly by ancestry, especially as the composition of some generations would not have been easily defined. But persons known to have some African ancestry were classified as black, regardless of appearance. They were also classified by neighborhood, known associations, and appearance of other persons in the family. The US just did not really much use mixed-race as a concept, although that is obviously is what Williams and many people were. By his photograph, one or both of his parents likely also had European ancestry. One source I came across said that Williams' wife persuaded him to live in a white neighborhood in Chicago. She was also mixed-race, predominately white. Parkwells (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Help

I need some info on Daniel Hale Williams. I have a project i am working on. All i am missing is the field of sience he studied, the history behind him, where he studied, and the struggles he has gone through tp become succesful. If someone could help me out here, i am very grateful!!!

Try the Reference Desk, or check out the books cited as sources. --Dhartung | Talk 05:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Not the first

"Williams is regarded as the first man to have performed surgery on the heart" -- this is contradicted by the Wikipedia entry on Cardiac surgery, which points out surgeries on the pericardium by Francisco Romero (1801), Dominique Jean Larrey (prior to his death in 1842), and by Henry Dalton (1891). That makes Hale third. The Cardiac surgery entry also says that the first to actually operate on the heart itself, rather than the pericardium, was Ludwig Rehn in 1894. Lippard (talk) 15:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Lippard, I did some research on this issue and added a reference. Francisco Romero and Dominique Jean Larrey made the attempts but they were both unsuccessful. As for Henry Dalton, he performed the first successful one - but news of this wasn't published until two years after William's operation. So Dalton performed the first successful heart surgery, but Williams performed the first DOCUMENTED successful heart surgery. I outlined this difference in the article. Thanks! Tauzoon (talk) 18:28, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Tauzoon, this is incorrect. Francisco Romero was successful, and it was also documented. He also gave talks on these procedures as well. Also note that "First documented" means it was the earliest case that occurred of cases that were recorded, not the earliest record date of a case. Even if you wanted to argue as such, leaving it as it is clearly misleading and will only serve to misinform the public into believing he was the first surgeon to perform surgery on the pericardium (not the heart). 141.217.207.192 (talk) 16:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Biased article

I find it amusing how I got so much heat for using huffington post but an anonymous list which has not been updated in many years. The second source mentions he did two surgeries that were notable but this article downplays his role. YVNP (talk) 08:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Blank Section

There's a big section of text here that's in the edit box, but doesn't show up in the actual article. Can anybody fix this? LM103 (talk) 01:48, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Dr. Daniel Hale Williams Ancestor Chart

Historical (1700's and 1800's)family name records usually don't have suffixes (Senior, Junior, III) attached to them. The following Doctor Daniel Hale Williams Ancestor Chart has suffixes added to clarity or confusion which Williams is which.

Ancestors of Dr. Daniel Hale WILLIAMS III 16 Dec 2015

               |---Joseph WILLIAMS (b.1760)
           |---Daniel WILLIAMS Sr. (b.1783 d.1854)        
           |   |--- Marcy WILLIAMS (b.1769)
   |---- Daniel Hale WILLIAMS Jr (b.1820 d.1867)
   |       |---Sarah WILLIAMS (b.1789)

Dr. Daniel Hale WILLIAMS III (b.1856 d.1931)

   |         |---Henry PRICE (a.1816 d.1863)
   |----Sarah A Price WILLIAMS (b.1823 d.1880) 
             |---Ann Wilks PRICE

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Daniel Hale Williams. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081226203249/http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/index.html to http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/index.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071020102100/http://www.historycooperative.org/btw/Vol.9/html/396.html to http://www.historycooperative.org/btw/Vol.9/html/396.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:29, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Daniel Hale Williams. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527182037/http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/williams.html to http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/williams.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150926185032/http://mail.blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/invention/heartsurgery.html to http://mail.blockyourid.com/~gbpprorg/invention/heartsurgery.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100527182037/http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/williams.html to http://www.providentfoundation.org/history/williams.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 05:55, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

"D H Williams" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect D H Williams. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#D H Williams until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

"D. H. Williams" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect D. H. Williams. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 September 10#D. H. Williams until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)