Talk:Dance of Zalongo

Correcting the Article

I am correcting parts of the article that seems to have been added only for POV pushing reasons. It is a well known fact that the Catastrophe of Souli and especially the Dance of Zalongo are important events in Greek History. For decades (actually from 19th century) the dance of Zalongo is celebrated through out Greece. Every Greek school-kid have seen in his schools years at lest one performance of the dance and at list one school play dramatizing the mass suicide. Obviously it is a well known event of modern Greek history.
Since when it became "important part of Albanian history"? Since when the Albanians celebrate the Zalongo Dance? I imagine that through out the Schools of Albania, school kids celebrate the heroic fight of the Souliot women against the Albanian forces of (another Albanian)Ali Pasha. It is quite impossible to believe!
However the Albanian song is a completely different thing. I agree that a reference for it should remain in the article. Although I don't believe that it was any popular at all. Unfortunately the only reference seems to be a book from 1962. It must have some more information were it was actually sang. If it came out to be actually popular (for at list some period) then we should re-add the lyrics (the lyrics by the way seem more like a poem and less than a song.I have moved the lyrics to the source) Seleukosa (talk) 23:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a contest on songs which were more or less popular than others. The Albanian song (and dance) is part of the Albanian folklore and properly referenced. It is based on a good secondary source (Zihni Sako is a well-known folklorist) and properly reflected in the article. I take it that you speak Albanian since you think that it looks like a poem, and not a song. Can you please confirm? I myself, if I see verses wouldn't know if they can be sang or not. --Sulmues ^(talk) 23:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC) To say it all, I am surprized that there were Greek songs on a tragedy that occurred to the Albanian people of Suli, but I guess that came from their hellenization given their participation in the Greek War of Independence. --Sulmues ^(talk) 23:20, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

You didn't seem to understand what the problem is. It is not if the song was popular ( obviously wasn't) but if the Dance of Zalongo has any significant importance in the Albanian history. (Obviously not.) The way the article was written, suggested that as Greeks celebrated the Souliotes the same happened in Albania in the same extent. Not at all!!As for the Albanian song the reference remained but in it proper dimension. And by the way the Souliotes considered themselves Greeks and they fought against the Ottoman Albanian forces! You migth considered them Albanians but they didn't consider themselves! It is actually surprising that a song even existed in Albania celebrating the Souliotes who were excellent in destroying the Albanian forces!!Seleukosa (talk) 23:40, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted most of Seleukosa's changes. I see no reason to relegate the Albanian text into a footnote while citing the Greek text in full – no matter how they compare in terms of relative popularity in their respective countries, they seem both eminently interesting to me. I also very strongly object against the addition of "Although the army of Ali Pasha which destroyed Souli was mainly Albanian…". This "although" insinuates a heavy POV message: "people of the same nation cannot go to war with each other; therefore, if A was at war with B, and B was a member of nation X, then A cannot naturally be part of the history of X". This thought is (a) unsourced original research, and (b), frankly, naive in the extreme.

Next thing, I will bring back elements of the old intro from a few months back. The term "dance of Zalongo" still refers primarily not to any of these popular dance songs (Greek, Albanian or otherwise), but to the legendary event itself, the dance supposedly performed by the women on the cliff in that situation. The article currently glosses over this, and the idea to factor this history aspect out into "catastrophy of Zalongo" seems not to have stuck, and I don't believe it was in line with common usage anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I do agree that the Albanian song has an interest but yet we don't know anything about it since the source only cites a book and not the exact reference.(obviously it was not popular or even known. The same happens with many folk Greek songs who are only known to researchers). I still don't agree that the incident is part of the Albanian history in such a way that it should appear in the opening paragraph. Why it is? Because an Albanian force took part in the Souliote wars? Or because the Souliotes are considered Albanians? Well the fact is that despite their possible initial origin the Souliotes/Arvanites thought themselves as Greeks, fought as Greeks and incorporate themselves in the Greek nation. In other articles the "self-determination" is enough even for the creation of nations but not for the Souliotes/Arvanites.)As for the paragraph that FutPer find it heavily Pov, he didn't grasp the meaning. This might be my fault. What I meant was that although the Albanian force was the one that destroyed Souli (and from them the Souliot women tried to escape) the incident had an impact on the them also. It had nothing to do with nationalities but with the fact that the (mainly)Albanian force of Ali Pasha was mortal enemy with the Souliotes. It is not common to have a song written for your enemy. To assume that that paragraph had anything to do with nationalities is frankly, naive in the extreme. To Summarise a)I agree that the song should remain. It is actually interesting although I would like to see more information about it. b) I don't agree that this incident is of any importance for the Albanian history except for the fact that the mainly Albanian force of Ali Pasha participate in the fight.I dont think that anyone can actually believe that the incident was an "Albanian tragedy"(sic) that user Sulmuel suggested above, but since it had an impact in Albania it should be mention in the paragraph about the song.Seleukosa (talk) 10:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

You are still caught in the same error: "A and B were at war with each other, A belonged to nation X, therefore B cannot belong to nation X". The syllogism is wrong because it presupposes: "people of the same nation do not go to war against each other". Which is, patently, ridiculously, wrong, and in the fluid situation of Balkan ethnic identities in the early 19th century it is even more wrong than at all other times. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not saying at all the above Futer! Please do not add your explanation in my words! What I said was only about making a song for your mortal enemy. Regardless nationalities! Of course people of the same nation keep going on war with each others!! Constantly. But that is not the case with the Souliote/Ali Pasha war, since the Souliotes did not consider themselves Albanians!Seleukosa (talk) 11:31, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Tagged reference

I have also tagged the ref entry currently given as:

"JSTOR (Organization) (1954). Journal of the International Folk Music Council, Volumes 6-10. Published with the assistance of the International Music Council, under the auspices of United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation for the International Folk Music Council by W. Heffer, 1954."

When, o when, will people learn that to cite from a journal you need to cite the author, title, pages, and volume of the specific article, not just the name of the journal (and certainly not "JSTOR", which is neither an author nor even a publisher, but a mere archiving service)? When somebody has please fixed this, the related footnotes will need fixing too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Can actually anyone check this source and what it says? I tried but with no success. Other sources of the current article such as "Folk Dancing for Students and Teachers" and "Mémoires de la Société royale du Canada" do mention only the Greek tradition.Seleukosa (talk) 11:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Which source are you referring to Seleukosa? If you are referring to the Sako one, it dates 1962. Sako had studied Filology in Athens, Greece, then he taught Albanian in Moscow, USSR, after which he returned and was the head of the Folklore Institute in the Academy of Sciences of Albania. He has lots of monographies and a good article in the Albanian WP. Could you please AGF a little more? --Sulmues ^(talk) 11:40, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No Sulmues, I mean the Journal of the international folk music, Volumes 6-10. I don't doubt Sako (although I would like to see more information about the song)Seleukosa (talk) 11:49, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I made another edit, because it seems like the Dance of Zalong is the typical syrtos dance, which it wasn't. The dance is a very old one and danced only in Suli and in the Zalong mountain according to folklorist and writer Mihallaq Qilleri Marko Boçari Suloiti, Miti dhe e Verteta. --Sulmues ^(talk) 12:08, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Salmuel I don't think that this source is valid. It is almost impossible to verify if this has any historical value behind it. One of the sources of the article(Folk Dancing for Students and Teachers) actually names the dance as syrtos. However I don't believe that anyone actually can tell what was the dance in an almost legendary event. I think it is better to remove it all together.Seleukosa (talk) 12:25, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yep, we have contrasting sources. I saw your removal of Qilleri [1]. Since it's going to be again whether the Dance of Zalongo was Greek (syrtos), vs Albanian (Parga and Suli back then were inhabited by Albanians), better leave it without going deeper in the kind of dance. Fine. --Sulmues ^(talk) 12:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Parga and Souli were never "inhabitant by Albanians". Praga is a known Greek town and during the Ottoman era was mainly inhabited by Greeks. Souli was an area with Arvanite population. Arvanite/Souliotes may have been initialy of Albanian origin but they heavily intermix with local Greeks and were completely Hellenized. As we have said before, Arvanite/Souliotes self-determined as Greeks and you can not call them Albanians.Seleukosa (talk) 09:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Suliots was ethnic albanian Chams, not Arvanit, Arvanit means the greek-orthodox albanians in midle of grece and on the islands. 2. Isent true that the suliots was completly hellenized, watch the Albanian-Greek dictionary from Marko Boqari,3. Parga was inhabitant by albanians too, type only "parga albanians" in google/books and in 1 min. u will find the answer. The ethnical border in the history has not the same national border today.greets--80.218.232.7 (talk) 21:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

It would be Parga, not Praga. Seleukosa. There are several sources that refer to Arvanites and Souliotes as Albanians. You might want to get familiar with the respective articles. --Sulmues ^(talk) 12:16, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Obviously a type error. Do not confuse the initial origin of Arvanite/Souliote with what they actually were. I suggested you start reading something more that Albanian nationalists sources.Seleukosa (talk) 09:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

OR

The Albanian version of the song appears to be totally wp:OR. Apart from the fact that the reference is imposible to verify [[2]], both Despo and Mosko (as the lyrics mention them) didn't die at Zalongo, thus this song can't have earned the title "Song/Dance of Zalongo".Alexikoua (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Illiad spoke about people talking to the gods and has many historical inaccuracies.This doesn't make it an wp:OR.Rolandi+ (talk) 17:50, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

You need to address the issues above. For the record this addition is wp:OR, there isn't such a song in the supposed reference (you might have seen the vn tag which was placed earlier). Even if such lyrics exist the title of the song can't be 'Dance of Zalongo' because it describes a diferrent event.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

As done in the Cham Albanians page added in the correct Dance of Zalongo song in Albanian (from Rrapaj folksongs book) and its all sourced. If anyone wants the page from the book for further info, i can send a scanned page to them via email (its in Albanian though) and send me a message on either my English or Albanian talk page so i can so. The previous Albanian song in this article was about the Souliotes but regarding a different incident at the village of Riniassa or Rizo as its known today when some Souliotes women where cornered by Ali's troops. So it was not applicable here. All the best. Resnjari (talk) 12:25, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Albanian name

I added the albanian name off Zalongo dance and of Soul. The article is partial, representing greek nationalist position and , arguing that Souliotes were greek. The user "dr. k." reverted twice my editing and called me disruptive thretening with "sanctions". An event protagonized by albanian speaking population is presented as only greek . And "dr. k" reverts my adds and call me disruptive only because I gave the albanian names. I am sad with this censorship granted by wikipedia Dimitrihector (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

For your information, Vallja e Zallongut is already mentioned on the Lead section and it is well sourced. I am sorry but I fail to see your point in adding the translated name twice. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 17:47, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991:This article is about the event "Dance of Zalongo", not just about the folk song and dance created for it, at a later point. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 23:28, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Thing is, there are two Dances of Zalongo, created for the event Dance of Zalongo. The Greek version of the song is not the same as the Albanian Cham version of it. This has already been discussed in the past and the editors kept them separate as to not confuse the things since they are not exactly the same (note the term "similar"): There is also a similar Cham Albanian dance-song called Vallja e Zallongut ("Dance of Zalongo"). --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 23:32, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@SilentResident: Can you provide sources that the Dance of Zalongo was an event? If this article refers primarily to the mass suicide, it probably should be renamed. On the Albanian name, I see it is on the lede, and its position is not of much importance, though Dimitri is partially right. It would not be a bad idea to keep the Albanian name next to the Greek one. Souli was a bilingual region, after all. It is sad to see most of energy in used for trivial datails. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but the event cannot be renamed. It is known as the Dance of Zalongo. Simple as that. It was not me who gave it this strange name, nor I was involved in the creation of the article, just this is how it is known. The mass killings are referred to as the Dance of Zalongo.

Also something which the article does not mention which I know and I can tell you, just for your information: the term Dance of Zalongo is not just the name of the folk song, nor the name of event itself alone, but also a term used by the Greeks today to refer mass suicides in the modern times. Such as the mass suicide in Japan which the Greek media described as the "Japanese Dance of Zalongo". (however I didnt add info and sources about its modern day usage by Greeks in reference to modern day mass suicides such as the Japanese one, due to lack of reliable sources for it) --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 23:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I do not care much about this article, and I do not remember how I came across it and put it on my watchlist. If you have reliable sources, add them. As it stands now, the article does make little sense. On the Albanian name and proposal of Dimitri, why should not be the Albanian name next to the Greel one. Asking out of curiosity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: The article as is makes sense, since it refers to both the myth and the folk songs dedicated to the myth. If you do not care much about this article, then leave it alone instead of turning it into a folk dance article which is not. The reason the Albanian name of the song cannot be added to the first sentence of the lead section of the article, is primarily due to the Albanian name referring to the Albanian song Dance of Zalongo (Vallja e Zallongut) through which you the Albanians know about it, which is the Cham Albanian version of the Greek song. The article here refers to the Greek myth (the event, not the Greek or the Albanian songs). --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 (talk ✉️ | contribs 📝) 23:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

If this article is about a myth, not about songs as you say (for a moment I thought it was about both myths and songs), the songs should be moved to a new article, and this article should elaborate on the myth. Naser Ferri, on his book "Mitologjia e Gjalle" explains that the Dance of Zollogo is a local myth/cultural element of western Epirus, with both Greeks and Albanians having it. Hence, if the article is about the myth, why should not the Greek and Albanian names be next to each other? Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:15, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I know many Albanian Scholars, but Naser Ferri escapes me. I have never have heard of him and his work before. Is he a scholar? The Dance of Zalongo is a Greek myth, connected to the Greek War of Independence which mounted at this time period. I fail to see how this was Albanian myth since it happened in Zalongo, which has a Greek village and its inhabitants had Greek consciousness and today a Greek monastery exists in the area, build in the memory of the Zalongo dancers, to not mention a large monument which is dedicated to that myth. If you ask me, I couldn't take whatever non-Albanian the others claim as being Albanian, this was very much the case about Greek ancient sites (such as Apollonia), myths, events and figures (such as King Pyrrus) are being claimed as Albanian (or Illyrian) by various Albanian scholars and public figures. None of the claims of course is true, obviously, just like how this isn't an Albanian myth. The Cham Albanian folk song however, is Albanian and the article already clarifies that. EDIT: Just FYI: I don't want to dismiss what Albanian authors claim just outright, but allow me to be very caultious and welcome with a grain of salt whatever the modern day Balkan figures may claim about historical events: historical revisionism is very popular trend nowadays in the Balkans, and especially in Croatia, Albania, Serbia and Macedonia but it has no place in Wikipedia. Any edits challenging the history of Zalongo, its inhabitants and myths, will simply be reverted. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 00:40, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Naser Ferri has a Ph.D. and his book was published by Uni of Zagreb. He is a very reliable source who can be easily tested at RSN. Anyways, as I told Dimitri ( and it seems he agreed with me in the end), that both traditions are on the article, and no change is needed. This article, like Souliotes, shows that every Balkan nation has revisionist myths. In this case, they are not Albanian. Right? What brought me here is your report. You did not warn the editor before, and they have not made 3 rv in 24 or so hours. It is not the first time you mistaken 3RR rules. Beware this is not allowed. I wanted to understand if that report was a good faith one, and now I think I know the answer. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:17, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

The 3RR rule is not strictly about 24 hours, and you know this very well, don't you? Also edit warring is not only about 3RR, and you know that, don't you? Especially considering that this is AE-covered article. Better read the rules again before interventing into other people's reports and making bad faith assumptions about them. The rules do not apply to people selectively, but to us all. I want to believe it is just your ignorance that you made unconstructive edits to this article, and I want to believe it is your ignorance about the rules that speaks now. Now, get out of my sight. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 02:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

The solution here is simple: neither translation needs to be in the lead sentence. Since "Dance of Zalongo" is not a proper name but a descriptive term, and both the Greek and the Albanian are just trivial literal translations of it, there is no benefit in having them there, and editors need to get rid of that ugly and stupid habit of using such translations as a means of symbolic national territory-marking. Of course, where the article talks about the songs (not the event), the songs have language-specific titles, which obviously should be quoted. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with Future Perfect at Sunrise, that's a good point he has here. Regardless of what certain editors from Albania want here, having the Greek name on the lead serves nothing, and since so many local Greek events in Wikipedia related to the Greek War of Independence against Ottoman authorities do not have such trivial translations, I fail to see why this has to be an exception to it. Example: the famous Battle of Navarino. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@SilentResident: OK. Great. Make such a report again and we will see what happens. You are warned now. Now, get out of my sight. ??? @Future Perfect at Sunrise: I came to this talk page due to recent disagreements over that trivial detail between SR and Dimitri. Arguing about it does not bring much benefit. The article makes it clear that the Zalongo stuff is Greek and Albanian. The symbolic national territory-marking in the Balkans is due to a lack of established national identity and myths about fictional origins. In this case, many people with Greek origin desparately claim an Albanian identity and many people with Cham origin desparately claim a Greek origin. This sort of lack of identity causes issues. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:11, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry but even if it is a case of what you call it, "The symbolic national territory-marking in the Balkans is due to a lack of established national identity and myths about fictional origins.", still, you are missing the point: this is none of Wikipedia's business. You have to understand that this national territory marking has to stop. Editors should take their insecurities away from Wikipedia and leave the articles alone. Such contributions to the articles are not positive for the project, no matter how you justify or explain them. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:18, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Translation now exists only for the Greek song itself, where in my opinion it is less trivial: [3]. I consider this discussion to be closed, and I expect from the editors to refrain from similar disruptive edits in the future, otherwise I won't hesitate to fill a new report. Have a good day --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:32, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

What does "fill a report" mean? Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:49, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

I also agree with Future Perfect at Sunrise and think it would be better for the Balkans in general if we stopped putting (competing) translations on every placename and likewise that occurs -- readers don't care anyways. --Calthinus (talk) 14:09, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Descriptive terms should not have their translations on lead unless this refers to the song, but this article is about the mass suicide event.Alexikoua (talk) 14:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Move on everybody. It is just a small detail that really changes nothing. I think that now both Dimitri and SR should feel happy. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Unreliable source based on nothing

In the article there is an albanian song, supported by the source "Mero Rrapaj, Fatos (1983)". Firstly, this albanian source mistakes the date. It happened in 1803, not in 1804. Second, there are not other sources claiming that the Souliote women were singing this song. It is clear that is based on the greek song, which is not traditional but a synthesis of early 20th century. The albanian song was probably invented during the Enver Hoxha totalitarian nationalist regime, and although this cannot be claimed in the article, at least we can point to the date of first publication (1961). If this Fatos says where he found this song, please add it in the article. The source does not say that this is traditional.--Skylax30 (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Souliote women were not singing any song mentioned on this article. The songs of this article are part of local traditions that celebrate the "heroic" act. Since the area in that time had a mixed identity and was bilingual, there are Greek and Cham traditions concerning what happened. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:16, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

In that case, why you delete the date of first publication? The source doesn't say anything about "local tradition", and it couldn't be because a) Albanian Chams were muslims and b) Albanian Chams did not claim that they are "Albanians" before instructed so by Mussolini. --Skylax30 (talk) 19:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I have to admit that something is really weird about this: according to a previous version [[4]] there was a supposed Albanian version of this song, however it described a different event (the suicide of Moscho Botsari in Riniasa). Resnjari removed this song and presented another one which appears to be somewhat in accordance with the the events in Zallongo. What's weird is that this song is recorded by one and only author, lacks wp:VERIFY (gbooks doesn't confirm that it's recorded in this work) so I've asked Resnjari to scan the specific part due to the inaccuracies in general (the author also claims that the event occured in 1804 which is wrong, but that's not a serious error). If we accept that this song existed and refers to the specific event it's definitely not so popular in Albanian folklore events (zero google hit).Alexikoua (talk) 12:56, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Albanian Chams did not claim that they were "Albanians" before instructed so by Mussolini -- aside from it likely being very easy to demonstrate how wrong this is, I see literally no reason for saying this aside from provocation. Generally not ideal if you're here to build an encyclopedia... (additionally if you knew anything about Cham history you'd know that the Islamization of Chameria peaked in teh 19th century -- after the event)--Calthinus (talk) 16:16, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Do you know any pre-1920's sources where Chams declare that they are Albanians?

Firstly, Calthinus, this is a discussion page and not an article, and there is more freedom of speak, provided that a crime is not committed. Secondly, I claim that I know some things that you don't, unless you can read greek or turkish sources. In 1922-1924 a sizeble part of muslim Chams chosed to move to Turkey, exactly because they were feeling that they belong there. When Italy realized that she loses some "friends" in the Balkans, intervened (Albania was not officially represented in the Com. of Nations) to stop them leaving. This is written in Greek and other "obscure" sources. Hardly 20 years later, Italy used the Chams in a way that is well demonstrated in the relevant articles. If you are not Albanian, as you said, and you are only learning the language, feel free to ask things that you will not be told at school.--Skylax30 (talk) 09:26, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

There are plenty of people I like to ask things, but seeing as your past posts have included random speculation on Gjon Kastrioti's "true" name (but being unable to decide between Jovan and Ivan?), calling TU-nor a pro-Albanian propagandist (classic personal attack, against a user who ironically has done a lot in the past to contain Albanian nationalist attempts to distort facts on this project), similar defamation against other users, WP:SYNTHESIS with unreliable WP:PRIMARY 19th century sources by Western travelers, using new page creation to circumvent an overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS, asserting a Greek origin for the Muzakas solely because their name sounds like Moussaka (really, a ten year old would come up with that one...), and other gems, really, I'll pass. I am familiar enough with the Balkans on Wikipedia to know when I see it -- poster case WP:TE. One thing I was not taught in school is whether you will learn to be something even resembling a constructive editor, or will end up WP:BANned. That is the one question I have. I guess I should get the popcorn. --Calthinus (talk) 14:30, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Dear Calthinus, you can always ask me for checking greek sources. But I have to say, very few things worth knowing can be found in Greek exclusively. If something is important, an English source can be found most of the times.Τζερόνυμο (talk) 08:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I suppose your comment on the name of Ivan Kastrioti meaned to be consumed by the rest of us. You see, I can read Chalkokondyles from the original. As for mussaka, it seems that we have a different taste of humor. Enjoy your american popcorn.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:27, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Did it happen?

I reverted an IP a while back, but something just didn't work out for me. And I did some research in bibliography. Greek and Albanian editors have had many disputes about the "original" version of the song, but did the event happen?

• Andreou, Andreas; Kasvikis, Kostas (2015). "A New 'Old-Fashioned' Primary Education Textbook For Greece: Going Backwards After the Conflict" (PDF). International Journal of Historical Learning, Teaching and Research. University of Cumbria.:

  Strangely enough the so-called 'Dance of Zalongo', the heroic event of a mass suicide of women to avoid enslavement (1803), the historical veracity of which has recently created another public controversy in the country, is not mentioned, despite the fact that the textbook devotes a whole unit to the related event of the war between the people of Souli and Ali-Pasha, the Ottoman-Albanian ruler of Epirus (Koliopoulos et al, 2012a, pp. 66-69).

• Tsekouras, Ioannis (2016). Nostalgia, Emotionality and ethno-regionalism in Pontic Parakathi (PDF) (Thesis).:

  There are several incidents, during different wars and conflicts with the Ottomans, where groups of Christians committed massive suicide in order to escape humiliation, rape, enslavement, torture, or painful death. The one case that has been blown out of proportion in Greek nationalist historiography is the mass suicide of the Souli women in 1803, known as the Zalongo dance.

• Janion, Ewa Roza (2020). Imaging Suli: Interactions Between Philhellenic Ideas and Greek Identity Discourse. Peter Lang Edition. ISBN 3631669917.:

  The Greek approach to folk songs differed from the European: European philologists of this time focused on their artistic value, while the Greeks emphasized their ideological (political) meanings. One historian, Spiridon Zambelios, states that the songs are intrinsically connected to the history of the nation for thanks to them Hellenism was carried on after the fall of the Byzantine Empire. In his edition Zambelios even modified the songs about Suli in sucha way that they better suit such a role. Moreover, some supposedly Suliote songs were forgeries. The most famous example is the Song of Zalongo, which according to legend was sung by Suiliote women, but in fact it was composed at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries.

--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)