Talk:Crime (band)

Untitled

The some information in the recent edits by User:davidgoodis have been tagged for citation. In particular the changing of the cited date of release of a boxed set from 2009 to 2010. The referenced article referred specifically to 2009. If there is a verifiable reference to the 2010 date published anywhere, it should be cited. Otherwise, the whole sentence should be deleted until a new citation can be found (since obviously 2009 came and went with no boxed set.)

The edits about a new EP being released and the Remote Viewers playing shows also need third-party citations. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for band PR. Statements like that need to be referenced to a reliable source, like a magazine interview, radio/TV appearance or at least report in a major music blog.

Remember, edits placed in an article without cited references can be legitimately removed by later editors.

To User:davidgoodis - please be more careful with your editing until you get the hang of working with the Wiki programming interface. You totally screwed up the formatting of the page so it wouldn't even display, and then you left it that way. This is not cool. Always preview your edits. Remember if something goes wrong you can always revert back using undo. Read the Help pages to learn more about editing and using Wiki programming commands. Thanks. JMax555 (talk) 08:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Opinionated material in Wikipedia

Editor User:davidgoodis added a critic's review to the intro section. This is not proper material for an encyclopedia article. The article has been reverted. Please read the Wiki article What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox_or_means_of_promotion. In particular the following:

Opinion pieces: Although some topics, particularly those concerning current affairs and politics, may stir passions and tempt people to "climb soapboxes" (i.e. passionately advocate their pet point of view), Wikipedia is not the medium for this. Articles must be balanced to put entries, especially for current events, in a reasonable perspective, and represent a neutral point of view. Furthermore, Wikipedia authors should strive to write articles that will not quickly become obsolete. However, Wikipedia's sister project Wikinews allows commentaries on its articles.

Davidgoodis, you are a new editor to Wikipedia. Please do some research on What Wikipedia Is and What Wikipedia Is Not before diving in and making large scale edits. Thanks. JMax555 (talk) 18:04, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

JMaxx555 please cease any more additions or edits until you check with current original band members. you know how to contact them. Thanks davidgoodis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidgoodis (talk • contribs) 13:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Davidgoodis: Checking with band members is irrelevant to Wikipdia. I still think you don't understand What Wikipedia Is Not and I suggest you read the article at that link. Information obtained directly from the band would be considered original research and not allowable under the Wikipedia guidelines.

In short, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and can only contain information that is verfiable by reference to third-party sources. The subjects of an article (in this case the band) have no say over what is included in the article, so long as the information has been published elsewhere by a verifiable source, because Wikipedia is not a vehicle for PR. I have been careful to add verification and have cited references to what is currently in the article. Any information that is not referenced can be removed by other editors.

For example, there are three pieces of information you added to the article that are still awaiting references.

Specifically:

"There has been recent activity in getting the long awaited box set ready for release, possibly in 2010." The original date of 2009 was stated in the referenced article. We need a reference to the 2010 date.

"A new EP is due out in 2010 from F.Y.B.S. Records." Is there a published announcement or interview, or any published mention of this new EP? If not, that sentence must be removed. Wikipedia is not a press release service.

A post Crime experimental group: Remote Viewers, with the same current members, have made a number of Bay Area appearances." Are there any published reports (reviews, mentions in the music press, etc.) of these live performances? If not, the sentence must be removed. Again, Wikipedia is not a press release service.

I didn't remove those sentences from the article immediately because I wanted to give you a chance to provide the references, so I tagged them with the appropriate tags. If you do have published references and are unsure about how to go about doing proper citations using the Wiki programming interface, you can provide the references by entering the information here on the Discussion page and I'd be glad to do the editing itself for you. (In the first round of editing you did you left the article with broken formatting.)

You are new to Wikipedia and I want to help you learn how things are done here. Right now, you are what is called a Single-Purpose User in that the only editing you have done here is this one article, which is the only one you seem to be concerned with. Please ask for help if you need it. Please suggest edits to be added by putting them here in the Discussion Page first, and I or another experienced user will be glad to go over them with you and make them ready for inclusion under the Wikipedia guidelines.

Finally (whew!) in fact I do not know how to contact the current band members. I have no current e-mail addresses or other contact info. If you can provide it, please send me an e-mail with the information by going to my user page and send me a message via the e-mail link there. Thank you and I hope to help you make proper edits going forward. (And by the way, it's considered polite to sign your posts on the Discussion page by adding four tildes (~) in a row at the end.) JMax555 (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

jmaxx555 please go to the bottom of the crime page, under external links you will see crime official website. go there and send an email to booking information. the band members will get it. you have posted various wrong information, and peoples sir names who don't want them published. etc. etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidgoodis (talk • contribs) 19:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi Davidgoodis: Here's the thing: what the band does or doesn't want published is irrelevant. If the information is verifiable by reference to a published source (magazine, book, radio broadcast, public record, etc.) then it can be included in the Wikipedia article. If there is wrong information in a Wikipedia article that came from a reliable published source (magazine, book, radio broadcast, public record, etc.) then that information can be included in the Wikipedia article. The standard for Wikipedia in verifiability, not truth. See the page about verifiability. It seems odd and even perhaps unfair, but there it is. If the published records are wrong, then Wikipedia will be wrong too. That's the breaks.

Also see the page on ownership of articles. Essentially, no one "owns" a Wikipedia article. In this case, Crime does not own the Wikipedia article on Crime. The band or their management have no authority whatsoever concerning what is in the article. Quoting the page on "ownership":

"All Wikipedia content is edited collaboratively. Wikipedia contributors are editors, not authors, and no one, no matter how skilled, has the right to act as if they are the owner of a particular article."

Band members, like anyone else, have the right to be an editor of any Wikipedia article. But they are no different than any other editor. Like anyone, they can challenge material, and if it can't be sourced to a published reference, they (or anyone else) can remove it. (Although Wikipedia etiquette calls for posting a note to the Discussion page saying why they removed it.) But neither they nor anyone else has the right to censor or remove parts of an article just because they don't like it, or don't want it in Wikipedia. If, for example, their legal names are published somewhere out in the world that can be referenced by the public, that information can be included, even if they don't want it to be. Again, that's the breaks.

Of course, the band members can be very helpful in the editing process, since they are the "experts" on themselves, and would know where articles or books are published that can be used for references. But they are of no use for getting information that is not published elsewhere, because it's unusable. That would be what's called original research and that is not allowed under Wikipedia guidelines.

If there is "wrong information" in the article, then it should be challenged. If there is no published outside reference to the information, then it should be removed. But please note that the group's own webpage is not necessarily acceptable as a reference. Wikipedia requires reliable third-party references. The reason is that anyone can put anything they want on their own webpage. Crime could claim on their webpage that they have ten platinum albums, and no one can stop them. But that doesn't mean you can put that information in this article. However, in some cases it's OK to use information from the website of an article's subject. See the whole page on verifiability to get an idea of how it all works.

For example, if you want to include the information about a soon-to-be-released EP, a reference to the record company's website citing the information would be suitable. But it has to report the same information as in the cited reference.

But including someone critic's glowing review of the band (like you kept adding to the intro section) is improper, because that violates Wikipedia's guideline on neutral point-of-view. Wikipedia is "just the facts, ma'am." If you want to put something like that in, it has to be as a reference to a published article, like a review. And it has to be in terms like, "According to a review in Spin Magazine by Joe Blow, Crime is "the most awesome fucking band in the whole universe." (Spin Magazine, Issue 366, pg. 25)" But someone else can also add a part like, "According to a review by Bob Knob in Rolling Stone magazine, "Crime sucks worse than any band in existence." (Rolling Stone, Issue 1345, pg. 73)" This article is not here to make Crime look good, or look bad. it's only to report what has been published elsewhere.

I apologize for going on at length, but I'm trying to help you understand how this Wikipedia thing works. If you have references to stuff you think should be in the article, by all means put it in, or put it here on the Discussion page and we'll work on it together. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, so let's collaborate. I want all the stuff in the article to be accurate and verifiable. I'm ready and willing to help. JMax555 (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

JMaxx555, i added that quote until i read the section explaining that quotes were not to be used, then i deleted it. every thing else you say makes sense after a quick scan (sorry, busy day today). again if you have any other questions you'd like to run by the original members, just send an email via the official site (booking). the band appreciates the work you've done here too, but just wants "the facts" to really be that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.139.41 (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Facts are good, but can only be used if they can be documented. If something is published by a verifiable source, even if it's in error, it can still be used. Remember, the standard for Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability.

Remote Viewers

I removed this part from the article: "A post Crime experimental group: Remote Viewers, with the same current members, have made a number of Bay Area appearances." because it appears to be original research. We need a citation for this, so it can be included. JMax555 (talk) 18:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

remote viewers performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7diu7pojJhg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidgoodis (talk • contribs) 22:51, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added what info was available from the You Tube link. JMax555 (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Current band photo

What would be nice to have is a photo of the current band, but I can't use anything I can find on the web, due to Wikipedia's copyright restrictions on media and "fair use". If someone has a photograph they themselves took that they would be willing to UPLOAD, or the band or record company has a copyrighted band photo that they, as the copyright owner(s), would be willing to upload and release in the public domain (as per Creative Commons CC-BY-SA 3.0 license), it could be placed in the article. All of the photos currently in the article were previously published by the copyright holders and mass produced either as posters or record covers, and fall under the definition of "fair use." See the Wikipedia UPLOAD page for more information. JMax555 (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Johnny Strike has died aged 70

Arts
Johnny Strike, Frontman of SF Punk Pioneers Crime, Dead at 70
https://www.kqed.org/arts/13840626/johnny-strike-frontman-of-sf-punk-pioneers-crime-dead-at-70

Johnny Strike: the brutal punk rocker who made Crime pay
The leader of outsider San Francisco band Crime – who brought punk to California – has died aged 70, leaving a visionary back catalogue that deserves greater recognition
Michael Hann
Thu 13 Sep 2018 13.58 BST
Last modified on Thu 13 Sep 2018 13.59 BST
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/sep/13/johnny-strike-crime-san-francisco-punk-rocker

READ ME: THE LAST WISH OF JOHNNY STRIKE
October 2, 2018
Zack Kopp
https://pleasekillme.com/johnny-strike/

--Über-Blick (talk) 22:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)