Talk:Craigslist Killer

What BLP issues?

Would any editor that thinks that making this page a disambiguation page care to specify what are the supposed BLP issues? Both people have the mnemonic in their article with the proper documentation. Ricardo Santiago (talk) 19:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

First, this is not at all what a mnemonic device is. Secondly, this has been discussed at great length in the past on the article talk page, with the consensus being that the redirect should be as it was, to Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users. So unilaterally moving the redirect, and then when reverted by two separate editors doing it again, is really out of line. The page you created is a BLP POV nightmare (and ungrammatical) - saying that "Craigslist Killer is a mnemonic given to several people who murdered their victim after meeting them through Craigslist..." and then listing Markoff along with Anderson is tantamount to saying that Markoff is guilty. Since he didn't go to trial, at the present time we can only say that he was suspected, indicted, accused of being the killer, not that he was the killer. Having this redirect to the original Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users has long been agreed to being the best, if imperfect, solution. (The section on Markoff ought to be updated however.) Please don't move this again unless and until you get consensus to do it. Tvoz/talk 02:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Consensus can change. Previous consensus is something to consider, but it is not binding. You'll have to do more than to say "this has been discussed at great length in the past on the article talk page". You'll have to give a link, so that we can address whatever issues were raised.
2. I reject the claim that "Markoff along with Anderson is tantamount to saying that Markoff is guilty". Nothing could be further from the truth. Reliable Sources have dubbed Markoff as a Craigslist Killer, so there is no reason not to group him with others who have been dubbed as Craigslist Killers.
3. Don't like the grammar? improve it -- Do not revert.

Ricardo Santiago (talk) 05:42, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

1, Of course consensus can change - but only after discussion. There was a lot of discussion regarding what goes where right on the existing redirect article's talk page, as I said, and also on its AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users - I don;t think they were so hard to find, but here are the links. If you want to raise the issue of changing this redirect that's fine, go ahead and raise the question, but if two editors revert your unilateral change you shouldn't be changing it again to what you want without getting some kind of agreement from others.

2. Further, both Robofish and I objected also on BLP grounds because you make the statement:

Craigslist Killer is a mnemonic given to several people who murdered their victim after meeting them through Craigslist, a popular classified advertising website. The mnemonic may refer to:

• Michael John Anderson
• Philip Markoff

Linking "who murdered their victim" and Markoff clearly suggests that Markoff murdered his victim. That is a potential BLP problem, because he had not been convicted, and though he is no longer living, as a recent death we generally follow BLP policy. We do indeed talk about Markoff on the "Craigslist controversies.." page, appropriately, but we talk about accusation not proven fact.

3. I didn't revert because it was ungrammatical - I was just pointing out parenthetically that the grammar was off, as was the use of the word "mnemonic" - if the text is going to stand I would try to fix the grammar. At this point it's moot. Tvoz/talk 08:05, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Perhaps you can specify further what in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users and Talk:Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users relates to the "BLP issues" at hand? I could not find anything in those talk pages that is relevant to the above question.
2. Don't like "mnemonic given to several people who murdered their victims ....."? we can change to "mnemonic given to several people who have either murdered or alleged to have murdered their victims ...."

Ricardo Santiago (talk) 13:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

1. Actually, having been informed about the discussion here, I think I was a bit hasty to revert. Ricardo Santiago is correct that the term 'Craigslist killer' is used in these articles with attribution to reliable sources, and BLP doesn't apply in one case (Markoff) anyway. I would now be happy with a disambiguation page instead of a redirect. I agree with Tvoz about the term mnemonic, though - it doesn't seem quite right here. How about just: ' 'Craigslist Killer' is a phrase used by the media to refer to the following cases'?Robofish (talk) 18:15, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I had two separate objections to your disambiguation page: (1) the need for consensus before unilaterally overturning the agreed-upon arrangement of redirecting Craigslist Killer pages to the controversies page and (2) a potential BLP POV issue. I didn't say that the AfD and talk page discussions were BLP based. "Alleged to" helps a bit with BLP, but it is an awkward construction and not clear who is alleged and who is convicted. (And it's not a "mnemonic" which would be a memory device like an acronym or some word that reminds one of the specific referent - this is perhaps a "nickname", although that kind of trivializes it.)

I think the question is whether this dab page should exist at all, and if so, how to choose which items would be listed. There are other murders related to Craigslist that are on the controversies page as well. Another possibility would be to redirect "Craigslist Killer" to "Internet homicide" - but maybe you can explain why you think that a separate dab page is needed rather than the current redirect. Tvoz/talk 18:19, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

← Thanks for coming over, Robofish. I asked for your input since I referred to your revert, and I did not want to misrepresent your thoughts on this. I also think it is important that this not be done without acknowledgement and consideration of the somewhat acrimonious history, and would like to see consensus for changing the status quo. Although I don't see a burning need for a disambiguation page, and would like to know why anyone else does, I could go along with something like Craigslist Killer' is a phrase used by the media to refer to the following cases, except that I'd prefer "individuals" since Anderson and Markoff are not cases. Note that there also is a page Craigslist killer (lower case k) which would be affected. And it would be wise to see if other Craigslist-related killings were also referred to as such. As for BLP, my reading of policy is that although BLP technically doesn't cover dead people, the cautious approach is recommended, especially for recently deceased individuals as Markoff is. Tvoz/talk 19:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I prefer the word "mnemonic", but I'll settle for whatever term the consensus is, just to make this into a disambiguation page, rather than a redirect page. Ricardo Santiago (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Redirect talk

There is a current talk about a redirect to Internet homicide at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation#Craigslist killer/murder(er). Please comment there or here if you have further arguments. --Trofobi (talk) 21:22, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

done. --Trofobi (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2012 (UTC)