Talk:Codognè

Codognè related sources

As this article has already been moved once due to disagreement about the last vocal accent I tried to add a couple of sources (ISTAT list of official names of territorial units and the Statute of the commune) in support to the official name (Codognè), but there is an anonymous user that is unhappy with that and I do not want to start an Edit War, thus I add these sources here below, may be soon or late these may be useful.:

• ISTAT (Italian National Institute of Statistics) List of statistical codes and official names of territorial units
• Statuto del Comune di Codognè

--Ninonino (talk) 10:35, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Article was moved once only and no one moved it again. Additional sources are not needed because current source includes the two spellings. 185.65.206.138 (talk) 13:16, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Just because the article includes two spellings it seems reasonable to include sources for both...

Since the anonymous user seems to be unhappy also about the link to a dictionary in support to the alternative spelling with -é, I add it also here below:

* DOP Online

Weird behaviour, usually sources are welcome. --Ninonino (talk) 13:54, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

One source with two spellings isn't it better than two sources each one with spellings contradicting each others? 185.65.206.138 (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 20 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Codogné → Codognè – The official name of the comune as used by the Gazzetta Ufficiale, the official organ of the Republic (page 17); the Istituto Nazionale di Statistica, the national statistical institute (e.g., this downloadable csv file), the comune itself, and its website, hosted by the Regione Veneto. In English-language sources, Scholar gives about 135 results for Codognè, about 44 for Codogné. Note: judging by the discussion above, this has been a bone of contention for some time. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:09, 20 June 2021 (UTC) —Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 19:09, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

From the websites of the two most reputable newspapers in Italy: La Repubblica: Comune di Codognè; Il Corriere della Sera: l'amministrazione comunale di Codognè. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:17, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to official and common name.  Mysterymanblue  07:16, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support seems like a mistake—blindlynx (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Discussion struck due to block evasion

@Mysterymanblue and Blindlynx: "Codogné" is the correct spelling and [kodoɲˈɲe] its pronunciation. Who among you already knew this small Italian comune before yesterday? Who among you even knew it was an Italian comune? Who among you knows orthographic rules about accents in Italian? I'd like to shed light about this. In Italian words and names can end with either acute (/) or grave (\) accent, depending on the phoneme they indicate: "é" indicates [e] (like the English [vein]), "è" indicates [ɛ] (like the English [bɛnd]). Italian dictionaries and encyclopedias are well aware of this: that's way 4 strong sources agree on the spelling "Codogné" (Enciclopedia Treccani, Enciclopedia Sapere, Dizionario RAI, Dizionario DIPI). The ISTAT is a strong source when dealing numbers, not orthography: indeed all the Italian comuni listed in the ISTAT site ending with an accent end with the grave accent (excluding the comuni with a French name in bilingual regions) because it doesn't care at all about the correct orthography of accents, you're free to check. The website of Codogné was created some years ago and their pages were written by unnamed civil employees, the same who sometimes wrote "Codognè", sometimes "Codogné" and some others even "Codogne'" (like in the above PDF of "the comune itself" where I read at the beginning a capital "CODOGNE'", not "CODOGNÈ" nor "CODOGNÉ" but "CODOGNE'"...); in the same site you can even find severe orthographic errors, such as "perchè" in the place of "perché": the persons who wrote the text in those pages didn't even check a common dictionary before doing it, how can you think that they checked the above authoritative encyclopedies? And about "two most reputable newspapers in Italy": everyone is able to search Google for what he needs, if you want I can link pages from those newspapers, and also from others, containing the correct spelling "Codogné" and containing the wrong spelling "perchè" or other similar errors. Let's stay serious, the encyclopedias and dictionaries I've linked above, written by scholars who have a page on Wikipedia such as Bruno Migliorini and Giovanni Treccani, are the "non plus ultra" sources for such a matter, they were published with the express intention to be an ultimate point of reference for people who wanted to know correct information, and they all agree with each others. Also Wikipedia should be this kind of point of reference, why should it be the only encyclopedia disagreeing with this? I think that you didn't already know all what I've talked about till now, not because you aren't good users but just because you aren't Italian and, unless you've been living in Italy for a long time, it's unlikely you could know such information about my country and language. After reading the information and watching the links I've provided do you still support the proposal to change the correct title of this page to its mispelled (and mispronounced) version? We might also think of a shared solution consisting in adding in the first line something like "(also spelled Codognè)" in order to cite the common uncorrect form too... 151.64.178.200 (talk) 17:55, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Wiki's information is based on WP:RS based on reliable sources the grave accent appears to be the correct given it is used in more reliable sources. That said given erratic usage it might be best to drop the accent entierly—blindlynx (talk) 18:22, 21 June 2021 (UTC) Struck the previous discussion because of block evasion—blindlynx (talk) 15:59, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I moved the page to the current title based on a technical move request by an IP. It seemed uncontroversial based on the sources provided, but if I had taken a closer look at both the article itself and this talk page I could and should have seen that it's contentious. Sorry about that! It's probably good that we have an RM now anyway, to settle the issue once and for all. Lennart97 (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment There's no "official name" in Italy as far as accents are concerned. Until recent times only grave accents were used, then Bruno Migliorini introduced the difference between ` and ´. It is pretty standard now, but not for places: in fact you can see Codognè, CODOGNE' or even Codogne' on traffic signs, but almost never the correct form (from a linguistic point of view) Codogné.--Carnby (talk) 16:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Dr Salvus 23:24, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
• Relist note: This page was moved today to the proposed title without closing this request, so I moved it back. I moved it back to the recent technical-move title because we see what appears to be a very strong argument opposed to the old title (here proposed). While at first glance there seems to be consensus among editors that this move-back should take place, this spelling issue has been, as has been noted, a contentious issue here and needs to be resolved. Perhaps the best title would be Codogne without the diacritical mark as suggested by editor Blindlynx above; however, rather than to continue renaming and arguing, we need to see good, solid, independent, secondary, reliable sources in the English language that support a certain spelling above all others. Also, keep in mind that in this case, if a "no consensus" decision results, then the title will be moved back to Codognè, so good, solid opposition arguments are required. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 19:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Sounds like a partially implemented change in standard orthography. But note that DIPI transcribes it as Codogné (-è) kodoɲˈɲe*, -ɛ* with both variants. Also, we need to consider the fact that the language of Codogne is not Italian, but Venetian, so Italian is arguably irrelevant here. It's possible (I don't know) that -è reflects the Venetian pronunciation, in which case we should go with that. — kwami (talk) 22:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Er, no, Kwamikagami, we should "go" with the predominant usage in reliable English-language sources – unless those are demonstrably wrong or out of date, in which case we should give some weight to solid Italian-language sources too. I've given examples of both above. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

That makes no sense. "Predominant usage in reliable English-language sources" cannot be demonstrably wrong, because they are what demonstrate English usage. That's like saying for Catholic theology we should follow Catholic sources unless they're demonstrably wrong -- how would we judge they're wrong? If English RS's use the spelling "Kodonyay", then so should we.

Anyway, if we're supposed to be following English sources, why are we debating Italian sources?

And if we do not follow English sources, then we should consider the language of Codogne, which is not Italian. — kwami (talk) 01:50, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

i agree with kwami here, per WP:TRANSLITERATE given that we don't have a clear english name. Venetian wiki appears to use only the grave accent. (Italian has the article tile withe the grave but lists both in the lead)—blindlynx (talk) 02:38, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Kwamikagami the Venetian pronunciation is [kodoˈɲe] with final -é.--Carnby (talk) 05:48, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

So it's pronounced -é in both languages, but predominantly spelled -è in Italian and also on Venetian WP. (AFAICT Venetian does not have a well established orthography.) Italian dictionaries may 'correct' that to -é, following the current standard, but it seems that hasn't filtered into daily usage even in Italian, let alone in English.

The dominant English spelling seems to be "Codogne" without any diacritic. Why not move it there? We could then clarify that it's Venetian [kodoˈɲe], Italian Codognè or Codogné [kodoɲˈɲe].

Second choice would be 'Codognè', as the most common accented form in English sources.

'Codogné' should only be used IMO if we have a convention of 'correcting' place names in Italy to the current official orthography of Standard Italian, something that even WP-it doesn't do. — kwami (talk) 17:01, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment this discussion points to a deeper issue. Should we start a WP:CENTRAL RFC on how to deal with this in general?—blindlynx (talk) 21:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC) warranted?
• Comment. If English-language sources predominantly use "Codogne" without accent then that would be a good example of what I alluded to above – those sources being demonstrably wrong. How do they expect people to pronounce that, like Dordogne or like Cologne? We have an obligation to follow English-language sources where possible, but we have a stronger obligation to at least try not to get things completely idiotically wrong.

The page on it.wp has now been moved back to the correct spelling (thank you, Ruthven!). I note that there's a suggestion there that this whole mess is connected with Foundation-banned editor MaoMio; there may be block evasion going on here.

Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:32, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Further to the above: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lacutengoduva. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:45, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers Note that most reliable sources in Italian (DiPI, DOP, Treccani, De Agostini, DETI) write Codogné. Instead the official site of the Comune, Tuttitalia and ISTAT use Codognè but remember that sometimes institutional sites and other sources do not distinguish between -é and -è.--Carnby (talk) 18:38, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.