Talk:Church (building)/Archive 1

Archive 1

What should be at [[Church]]?

I think we should distinguish between several topics here:

• Church buildings.
• How the word "church" is used.
• The theological concept of the Church in various branches of Christianity

I don't think we should tackle all of this in one article. My suggestions would be:

1. Making church a disambiguation page, and having church (theology), church (building), etc.
2. Making church about church buildings, and having a link at the top to church (disambiguation)

— Matt 14:45, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps Church_(body) for the body of believers, a very common expression that people would reasonably have a category for in their minds; and Church_(building) referring to the constructed architectural edifice. Church as theology is not so critical to start at this point because various entries cover it. Trc | [msg] 14:51, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ah, yes; Ecclesiology in particular. — Matt 14:57, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Your disambig idea is a good one; I didn't mean to counter it. I didn't see what you were doing. Cheers. Trc | [msg] 15:02, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've taken out the "Alternative meanings" section again; is that OK? It's probably reasonable to have the buildings as the primary article since that's (arguably) the primary meaning in general usage. — Matt 15:10, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I don't object but keep in mind that the term "church" receives vastly more use as a theological construct (body of believers) than it does as an architectural term. Most people, perhaps, use it only as the former, but in theological documents the word "church" almost always is the body of believers, which different ecclesial communions define differently. Trc | [msg] 15:20, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Church" does have several ambiguous meanings, which should be represented somehow. It is not clear to me that most uses of the word "church" are referring to buildings. People of my acquaintance frequently "go to church" (that is, attend services) in buildings which are not church-buildings, such as school auditoriums. Many churches (parishes; local bodies of worshippers) do not have churches (buildings). Some churches (religions) do not build churches (buildings) at all.

I therefore agree with the view that church should be a disambiguation page. It might direct readers to pages such as religious denomination, Christendom, ecclesia, places of worship, Christian religious architecture, etc. The last of these might be a good place to put the current architecturally-related material. It is an encyclopedic title, and might inspire other articles on religious architecture in other religions.

It is a virtue for Wikipedia to place articles under the most common word for them -- for instance, the article on Christianity is called Christianity, not (say) "Jesusism". :) However, when a given word is the most common word for two or more ideas, disambiguation pages are necessary. --FOo 15:55, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I agree, on reflection. You note the additional meaning of "Church" as in "Church service", a religious congregational ceremony. We should probably disambiguate these out, and not assume that people are looking primarily for information about buildings. I'd prefer Church (building) to Christian religious architecture, since the latter includes Abbeys, and Cathedrals and the like. — Matt 16:04, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Removed a redirect from Ecclesiastical, since ecclesiasticsal surely doesn't mean to adress the Church as a building.

and made Ecclesiastical a stub. Also just my opinion: I think that Church should point to the disambiguation page, and that we are certainly lacking the entry on church as a body of worshippers. It Is only slightly mentioned in the disambiguation page. --Frosty 17:19, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reading the above I have to agree with it. We don't seem to have an article that talks about church' as the body of believers. Not that I actually think there is very much to say about it, other than statement of facts and maybe how the word came to be transferred from people to buildings. It would seem more logical to put the discussion in a paragraph here than make a new article. DJ Clayworth 15:08, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Things that could be said about "Church as the body of believers": discuss "Church militant" vs. "Church triumphant", who does and does not use that distinction; discuss the notion of an invisible "universal" church versus church as a specific, visible, identifiable body of believers; maybe add a bit about various symbolism and imagery commonly applied to the Church in this sense, such as Body of Christ, vine, Bride of Christ, and even the old woman in the Shepherd of Hermas. Wesley 16:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Matt Crypto's suggestions [oops, I meant his first suggestion]. And as long as we're listing meanings of "church", here are all I can think of (FWIW):

1. A local community of Christians who meet together regularly, often having clear standards or rituals for membership ("I belong to this church."
2. The primary regular, usually weekly, meeting of such a group ("I'm going to church.")
3. The legal/corporate/organizational structure of such a group ("The church has title to 3 acres.")
4. A Christian denomination ("My church has local congregations in 20 cities.")
5. All followers of Jesus, worldwide ("The invisible church includes people in every nation.")
6. All Christians (or just those of a particular denomination) living in or near a particular city ("The Pope is theoretically just the bishop of the church in Rome.")
7. The leadership hierarchy of a Christian denomination, esp. of the Roman Catholic Church ("The church has repressed the laity for centuries.")
8. Clergy work, as a profession ("The younger sons inherited no land, and so found other professions; the second went to the army, the third, to the church.")
9. A building whose primary use is as a meeting place for a Christian congregation ("My church is on 3rd Street.")

And, by the way, many people (including myself) cringe at that last definition. I think this fact is something worth noting in some forthcoming article. But I also acknowledge the reality that an awful lot of people tend to use the word "church" primarily to refer to a building. — Nowhither 09:26, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

And let's not forget that "church" is used by some non-Christian groups as well, such as the Church of Scientology and the Church of All Worlds, to refer to religious organizations (although not, usually, to buildings or local branches -- a Scientology branch is an org or mission, as I understand it). --FOo 14:11, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Yup. And Thomas Paine, in "The Age of Reason" wrote "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church ...." although I think we can agree that his usage is unusual. — Nowhither 21:01, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Careful, Editors

Editors beware! Editing a few words will offend some religions. Keep it careful.

I may be off base here, but I believe a 10th point should be listed. My terminology is not up to par, but every building, espcially old churches develope a life of their own. A building is just architecture until it is used. And the way that the architecture interacts with its outside surrounding; with the 'kirk' (Protestant def. for people making up the church); the moods of the pope, and the responses from both clerical leaders as well as the people attending; what was going on within the immediate vacinity geographcally vs. further away, etc. All of these component and more make up the life or spirit a church. And are vitally important when researching a church. Unfortunately, (or maybe Thankfully) some church buildings have faced much tougher situations than others. When you walk in to an old church, you can sence the life or spritit it has lived. A building or church means nothing without including the role it played.71.149.148.227 07:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)User:lillyshaa1008

Large removal from intro

I removed this section from the intro:

The word "church" in the world today, as the world knows it and in the way that is was made popular on earth, started with Jesus. He first used the word as recorded in the Bible in the book of Matthew, 16:18. At this time it was not common to use the word in any religious context, there was no "religious" church without this man "Jesus". Whether he wanted to use it in such a context is highly debatable.

The first mention of the word "church" in this context was: Matt 16:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

It was not common to use this term in this way because it was a political term. The "assembly, congregation, council" that the word "ecclesia", "ekklesia" and "chuch" refer to and come is from the concept of a team that is working together to resolve a problem faced by the wider community/society.

A reasonable way to interpret what Jesus was talking about is in the context of the word "Christ". This was the being that Peter found Jesus to be, the one that an entire nation was waiting for. This has to do with one who will come to save "Israel", the nation of God.

The term church means the ecclesia, assembly, congregation and council of God. A logical extrapolation is the senate/congress or team of God. This team in the context implied by the man Jesus is one that works to bring solutions to problems on earth.

This explanation is influenced by the teachings of Noel Woodroffe and interpreted by the writer.

For these reasons:

• the disambiguation at the top says this article is about church as a religious building, so discussions of definitions of the word are out of place.
• started with Jesus. Church is an English word, Jesus didn't use it.
• Most of the rest is one editors inpretations and as such is unverifiable.

01:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

I added the cleanup tag. Even though I'm an atheist I like churches (mainly as I'm a fan of pipe organs which is why I'm at the church article anyway). That aside you must admit this article really is a bit messy with dangling format tags, odd use of bold, weird section headings like In the first century. Ttiotsw 09:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

A section on the early church and where they met is needed. From the Bible there are countless times in the New Testament that refers to the church (the people) meeting in homes. Even better would be to divide church and church buildings into two separate articles as church and church buildings are not the same thing at all.

etymology

• Who wrote the etymology section? The word church is completely unrelated to Greek ekklesia. It is "from Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Medieval Greek kuraikon, from Late Greek kuriakon (doma), the Lord's (house), neuter of Greek kuriakos, of the lord, from kurios, lord [1]. I would change it myself, but I don't want to take the time to do it if someone is going to revert it. Did it not occur to the author that church sounds nothing like ekklesia or was he/she deliberately misrepresenting?--Hraefen ^Talk 22:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - the etymology is now fixed. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

• Cool. I added the Spanish iglesia for our Spanish-speaking friends.--Hraefen ^Talk 15:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is terrible!

I'll work on it a bit. --JW1805 (Talk) 04:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved the word origin section to Church (disambiguation). It doesn't really make sense to put it hear since it also applies to the other uses of the term. --JW1805 (Talk) 23:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I removed the word origin section from both articles. Reasons listed in edit summary: poorly written, reference is unreliable, and the main thesis of the section is patently false (see above discussion on the etymology). Simões (^talk/_contribs) 17:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this is a horrible article. I will spend some time thinking about it, but my first idea is that there ought to be useful information here about the current popular use of the word "church". Regarding what a church is, I know it's a congregation of people, but there should also be some reference to the popular use of the word which now means both "the building where the church meets" and "the service which the church holds" (as in the phrase "I'm going to church," (meaning "I'm going to a church service", or in the phrase "the concert will be held at such-&-such a church" (meaning the building where such-&-such a congregation meets).J Lorraine 03:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Church as a building

There are a number of definitions of the term church - whatever the original or proper definition, one of the main definitions refers to churches as buildings. Please do not remove that definition from this page without consideration of where else to put that definition. Thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Church as a building

Thank you for that good idea Zzuuzz... I placed the article at "Church Buildings". The pictures etc. would also be quite relevant there.

psalmuelPsalmuel

It was an invitation for discussion not a call to arms. Please think through page moves a bit more carefully, and read up on naming conventions, before moving pages. Now, where shall we have this discussion on the new page names - before you make any other unilateral changes? -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 00:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Churhes built pn Pagan holy places?

Is it true that throughout Europe and the foundation of Christianity, many churches were built on sacred pagan holy grounds? I have read this before but now cannot find anything. Any help that you could offer wouldf be greatlyl appreciated. Also, do you think it would be a good edition for the article if good information can be found? Robert C Prenic 10:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Ecological Churches

Do we really need an entry about such a marginal phenomenon on the main article? Theologist 23:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Church = people, not building

A church is not a building, but a group of people. Churches meet in a range of buildings (and outside of buildings) including schools, pubs, etc. The definition of a church as a building excludes churches which don't own buildings - yet they are as much churches as any other. There are other words to describe a building that is set aside for a church to meet in (chapel, cathedral, tabernacle, sancturary) - but to describe "church" as a building rather than a congregation of people is not correct. Waggers 10:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The primary meaning - either etymologically or theologically - is an assembly of people, not a structure. Wikipedia appears somewhat ignorant by touting this definition as primary. Slac speak up! 11:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Definately POV, Waggers.

But that's why the article is called Church (building). You can't deny that Church is used as a synonym for chapel or cathedral. Richardprins (talk) 16:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Church is often used by non-Christians as well

It should be noted that Unitarian Universalists often refer to their places of worship as churches. This is because UU as a religion grow out of Christianity. Also a UU will often refer to going to their local congregations Sunday worship service as "going to church". I understand that the church article will manly focus on Christianity but it would be good if a way could be found to include such info within the church article. Also it would give the reader a more fuller understanding if the subject. --Devin Murphy (talk) 04:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Types of Church

Any more types of church? how about a normal village church with a small porch, a large seating area and a choir area?94.1.6.78 (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Meaning and Etymology of "church"/problems in article related to this topic

I can see from sections above that this topic has been discussed often in the past. The article, as it is now, has problems in this area. First we must decide how much information should be included about the actual word on this page. If you take a look at the disamb page for church, you will find that there are many church articles. The information in the lead paragraph and the Etymology section both have errors. There are also no inline references or entries about this topic in the bibliography.

A quick look at results from a google search (origin of word 'church') gave me the following information. The original term used in the Greek bible, ekklesia, meant an assembly of people but this was translated into the word church by most translators. There were translators who correctly used the term congregation. As far as I can determine this never referred to the place were they congregated, at least not in the Greek usage. The article states that it did. The word church did come from the ancient Greek term, kuriakê oikia which meant lord's house. This term pre-dates Christianity and was used to refer to places for worship of pagan gods. Of course, our word church refers to both these and more. If you have references that say different, let us know. Two sites have easy to find info that included the facts I stated above [2] and [3], maybe not the best references available.

IMO, the intro to the article should only mention the definition this article is using. There should be a reference and link to the disamb page just after the title. When this is in place, readers will know there is more than one meaning. Any other information about this should be in the etymology section. Because this is listed as one of today's articles for improvement, I hope to see some feedback from other editors soon. For now I plan to edit the lead paragraph only. Probing Mind (talk) 19:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the following information from the lead paragraph:

A church is, technically, a term for a gathering of citizens in a town (origins from ancient Greek), but is commonly understood by the Christian adoption of the word as gathering of Christians in a building or structure to facilitate worship and the meeting of its members, specifically in Christianity. Originally, Jewish Christians met in synagogues, such as the Cenacle, and in one another's homes, known as house churches. As Christianity grew and became more accepted by governments, notably with the Edict of Milan, rooms and, eventually, entire buildings were set aside for the explicit purpose of Christian worship, such as the Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

I am putting it here to preserve it in case we decide some belongs in certain parts of the article. Probing Mind (talk) 20:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Disamb link needed?

This page doesn't strictly need the link because it has a unique name. There are many uses of church as the disamb page shows. I think they would get lost in the see also section. If a reader thinks this article covers all aspects of church, they could be confused about where to go next. Maybe this is the wrong way to handle it. If you know of a better way or this type of use of the link is against guidelines, please change it.

Also, I might mention that much of the info in the Religion section properly belongs in one of the other articles, like Christian Church. Whether any should be here is a matter for discussion. Probing Mind (talk) 20:58, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm curious as to what you are asking here. Are you saying you think we shouldn't have the link to the dab page at the top? If so, I disagree. I actually think we should use a template that links to Local church and to church. Ryan Vesey 00:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I added the link but I only know the basics about the use of dab pages. I have noticed that most articles with a discriminator in parentheses don't have dab links. At least of the many I checked using random page. So, I was noting that I didn't think it was strictly needed, but I thought it was useful. Sorry I wasn't clear. I used the About template for the link. You think we should link to the two church topics. Which template do you suggest? You can just add it, if you want, and I will watch what you do. Thanks for inquiring. Probing Mind (talk) 21:31, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

There are a lot of pictures on this site, which is understandable given the extremely large amount of different kinds of churches there are in the world. But some of them are of rather poor quality and could be replaced by more representative examples, I'm sure, and the amount should be limited. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a general picture gallery, after all. What do other people think? Yakikaki (talk) 19:01, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

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Have reverted the edit, as the Archive.org link led to a blank page, or to one saying that the page isn't archived. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:25, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

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Link works. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

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Link works but seems unnecessary now, and I've reworked the reference. Dhtwiki (talk) 01:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 25 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 09:17, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

---

Church (building) → Church building – For readability in accordance with what the first sentence really says. As opposed to the meaning of "church" as in Christian denomination. On a further note, perhaps church should even redirect to Local church, or the other be renamed to church, while keeping church building? Please see also parallell category rename proposal. Chicbyaccident (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 18:41, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose This particular suggestion for natural disambiguation is a very unnatural (I don't know anyone that would point to one of these structures and call it a "church building". It's a "church".). -- Netoholic @ 08:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support agree with the nom. The "church" is a group of individuals, not the building in which these individuals meet. Lepricavark (talk) 14:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose As Neolithic says, "church building" is not a natural way to refer to the building. The parenthetical matches with numerous other dabs where the common reference is just "church". Crow^Caw 23:31, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The common name for these buildings is a "church", not a "church building". As to Local church being the primary topic, hardly. "Church" primarily means a building or a denomination. I would in fact suggest that in most parts of the world (outside America) the former meaning is actually primary. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose the move of Church (building) to Church building. The use of "church building" is not natural or commonly used. Keep: Church (building). Deadbolt44 (talk) 20:20, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose, as I, too, agree with the reasons given by previous opposers. My understanding of a reference to a "church" is to a building, not to a congregation. Also, I notice there's been considerable back-and-forth on this in previous threads on this page, without there being any consensus established that the reference to a congregation is the more usual one. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:10, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose a church can mean a church (congregation), church (building) or church (denomination). This doesn't need to be spelled out. Btw @Steel1943: is "local church" an Americanism? Never heard churches called "local churches" in the UK. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:15, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
  • I've never heard that usage in the USA either. -- Netoholic @ 18:18, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

@Netoholic: so why is church (congregation) article at "Local church"? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:53, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

In relation to the physical buildings, I've never heard them called "local churches". I suppose sometimes a member of a congregation could be spoken of as a "member of the local church" in the same vein as saying someone is a "member of the local gym" or shops at the "local grocery store". Its not a phrase useful as an article title, that's for sure. I think personally that Local church article needs a rename. -- Netoholic @ 10:12, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Pretty much sums up my interpretation of the matter as well. Chicbyaccident (talk) 10:22, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

@Chicbyaccident: @Netoholic: I've put in for a rename to church (congregation) at Talk:Local church In ictu oculi (talk) 08:42, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose A church is primarily a building, used as a meeting place for Christians and people claiming to be Christians. The individuals themselves are not a church, nor can anything living be a church. Church building sounds unnatural to me. As for the local church article, what it needs is deletion for lack of sources. Most of its text has no citations. Dimadick (talk) 00:22, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

---

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Addition of a gallery

The Sr Guy added a gallery of great Churches to the article. I, somewhat tongue in cheek, added an image of a very modest Church in Wales chapel in Gwynedd to contrast with the great and the glorious. Eric subsequently removed the gallery. I personally agree with the removal although I do think the article would be a great deal better if, in its images, it included examples from the most modest to the grandest as a more accurate representation of what Churches are. I have commented here in the event that others are in favour of a gallery. Regards  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   03:39, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I agree that a pic of a simple church would be good to balance out the more grandiose ones currently displayed. Eric ^talk 14:01, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The advantage to showing the grander buildings is that they're apt to be more liturgically expressive and architecturally important than the simpler ones. Since the "grand" gallery, which did put a wide range of styles on display, isn't really explanatory and is arbitrarily chosen, it's not necessary. However, putting in a "simple" church as an ironical statement (and one own's snapshot) while disrupting the neat formatting of the original gallery, is just disruptive. Dhtwiki (talk) 15:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Alternative buildings section

Hello all- I see the above section as straying outside of the encyclopedic and more into travel/essay territory. Even if the style and content were amended, I think it would still be one of our infamous "Stating the Obvious" sections, where we explain to the reader that sometimes buildings that once served as churches now serve another function. Anyone else? Eric ^talk 13:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

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• Frauenkirche München abends.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:26, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Church furnishings: no article, no category, nothing here either

Thwere is a wide term covering a lot, I can't tell exactly where it stops, and esseential for understanding a church: church furnishings. It hasn't got an article, nor a category, and here, where it certainly also belongs, it's not even mentioned.

For the definition, this website can be useful as a start, even if it's not RS. For more see "Category:Sacramentals", "Category:Christian religious objects", maybe more I can't think of (one leads to the next). Several other necessary/useful red links came up while putting together the list, which deserve at least a redirect.

I'm attempting at putting together a list of what is, and what possibly is, covered by the term. The term must be given its own article and category, and at least linked to this article too. Think of a redirect for now.

Part of "church furnishings"

Ambon (liturgy), Stations of the Cross, baptismal font, crosses of all kinds (rood, crucifix), candle holder, altarpiece, baptismal font, chalice#Christian, paten, monstrance.

Curch furniture: pew, kneeler, confessional.

Church supplies can also be useful as a term (either redirect, article, or category).

Probably also part of "church furnishings"

Iconostasis, chancel screen (see templon), royal doors, altar#Christianity, pulpit, lectern#Christian, etc.

Paraments, including decorative textile coverings as well as vestments (there's a whole set of articles on those) - see altar cloth, antimins. Arminden (talk) 10:08, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

As far as categories are concerned I think this is covered by Category:Christian religious furniture (a subcategory of Category:Christian religious objects), but I agree the existing articles concentrate more on the buildings themselves rather than their contents. I'd be astonished if there aren't numerous books and other reliable sources that cover the interior design and furnishings of Christian religious spaces, so I'm confident such an article would be notable in its own right. WaggersTALK 13:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)