Talk:Chinese diaspora in France

Requested move

• Chinese French → Chinese people in France
• Iraqi French → Iraqis in France
• Romanian French → Romanians in France

Existing titles are Wikipedia-only names apparently invented by analogy to "Italian American". "Fooian American" is a confusing naming convention that shouldn't be used to invent new names for non-US groups. Several reasons:

• Britain uses an opposing convention, "British Fooian"; for non-Anglosphere countries, picking one convention just confuses all the people who were expecting the other one
• Proposed titles are already widely used off Wikipedia: 1.2k GHits for "Romanians in France" [1] and 6.2k for Iraqis [2]. "Chinese in France" gets 26k GHits [3] while "Chinese people in France" is not that common, but I think it's better to put the disambiguation term "people" in there since plain old "Chinese" might refer to language, food, etc. too.
• Proposed format is already used in many existing page names about immigrant groups, e.g. Special:Prefixindex/Iraqis in, Special:Prefixindex/Chinese people in (though not so much for Romanians, see Special:Prefixindex/Romanians in)
• Existing titles are not the official names of the groups (e.g. what the government calls them, which would be in French); inventing a translation of a French official name which is not used in reliable sources would be original research
• Existing titles are not the self-identifying names of the groups (which would be in French, Arabic, Chinese, or Romanian); inventing a translation of any self-identifying name which is not used in reliable sources would be original research
• Hard to search for, lots of "Iraqi French" pages are about foreign relations, and virtually all "Romanian French" pages are about dictionaries/translation.
• Existing page titles may be unnecessarily restrictive of page content; there are plenty of immigrants or long-term foreign sojourners in France who aren't properly referred to as French, since they're not French citizens or even permanent residents, and may not consider themselves French or want to settle permanently in France. However, such people should be discussed on these pages.

Cheers, cab 04:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. Please keep discussing this, as there is still some discrepancy between the title and the article contents, and some good suggestions were made in the survey here. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 20:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose - Iraqis or Chinese in France may suggests tourists or businessmen from Iraq or China staying in France temporarily, not the the actual residents in France of Iraqi or Chinese heritage. See African-Americans, Polish-Americans, Cuban-Americans, French-Canadians, Chinese-Americans, Irish-Canadians, Indian-British, Italian-Brazilians, etc. greg park avenue 18:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Reasoning by analogy to other names doesn't erase the fact that this name is solely made up by Wikipedians and doesn't have any usage in academic literature. Wikipedia shouldn't be making up names; it's a violation of WP:OR. Anyway, I don't see why this page shouldn't discuss temporary residents or tourists briefly, in addition to long-term residents; expatriates also form part of the same community as the long term residents, they interact with each other in mosques, churches, or similar community organisations. WP:WEIGHT dictates that we can give brief mentions of those kind of subjects, as long as it isn't given too much emphasis.cab 16:34, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't think this name was made up, I think someone attempted to translate the name from French into English. From what I can gather, there are French and Chinese names for this immigrant group but (logically) no English equivalent. Tobias Galtieri 07:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per Greg park avenue. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 21:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Wouldn't something like "Ethnic Chinese in France" be the least ambiguous? "Chinese French" sounds like it could be a language or a style of cooking or something. Comparing to X-Americans or X-Canadians is bogus since neither of those are languages. But how ambiguous is "Chinese-English"?Ewlyahoocom 03:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally like that "Ethnic Fooians in Barland" naming scheme, but I'm also aware that there's some editors who object strenuously to it, so I didn't propose it --- see for example Talk:Japanese diaspora/Archive 1. One other naming pattern I've seen in the past was "Barlandians of Fooian descent" (e.g. Special:Prefixindex/Canadians of); however, "French people of Chinese/Iraqi descent" seems inappropriate, since most of the members of those two groups are recent immigrants who may not intend to stay in the long term, and aren't "French" in terms of citizenship, permanent residency, or even self-identification. Maybe "Chinese/Iraqi/Romanian immigration to France" or something? cab 04:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Non neutral details

"They form a small part of the Chinese diaspora." Hmmm... if 200,000 to 300,000 people only represent a small part of the Chinese diaspora, this opinion concerns only you. Moreover, this figure is actually the number of Chinese people living in France; it doesn't include the Chinese who are currently French; they are far more numerous. France is the European country with the highest number of Asians living on its territory. And no source shows a particular discrimination toward them; most of French with roots regard them as a model of successful integration.
The Whenzhou community "remains relatively discreet". What allows you to write that in the source ?
PS : If this is one of those disued articles, I'll correct it myself.
Best Regards, Yakuzanodon (talk) 19:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

There are perhaps thirty or forty million Overseas Chinese, so 300,000 is indeed a small proportion, not even 1%. As for "relatively discreet", I have no idea who wrote this; it doesn't seem to be in the source cited at the end of the sentence, and in accordance with your suggestion, I edited it out. But describing these minor quibbles as "non-neutral" and assuming that the article is sneakily trying to imply discrimination --- seems like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Finally, your claim that "this figure is actually the number of Chinese people living in France" --- well, the R.O.C. Overseas Chinese Affairs Commission statistics explicitly try to count Chinese descendants naturalised into local citizenship. Whether they succeed at that task is another question entirely --- a lot of their statistics, e.g. for Russia or Indonesia, in fact seem quite inflated. If you have any other sourced figures, you should add them (but leave the existing population figure in the infobox as well). Regards, cab (talk) 00:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Geez, I think I had a big problem with my watchlist, since I've never noticed I was replied - or I'm just scatterbrained - whatever. Hope we can go on discussing this issue despite these months of absence. Please excuse me.

I'm very leery with articles about demographics of France. Indeed, many seem not to have clear sources, such as those who deal with the odd minorities, since statistics about them are prohibited. And, as I used to read the British press (The Guardian) for a while, I couldn't help noticing a certain obsession from the media with pointing their fingers at France and regarding it as a country that has a low immigration rate and hence a high rate of racism - an odd logic, I think. As a result, yes, I did suspect you of insinuating the same thing. Be that as it may, 300,000 (600,000 according to newer figures) Chinese live in France and France has the biggest Chinese community in Europe, so the Chinese French community can definitely not be considered small. That's maybe, like you say, a mountain out of a molehill; yet even innocent adjectives like this one should be chosen with more precaution. Yakuzanodon (talk) 17:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Regional perspective is needed

The term French Chinese is misleading. The article should talk about the Peopleflow between destination region and region of origin and describe regional migration patterns. Because this is a more realistic view about the Chinese migration. There are also economic issues which support this view. Look at the travel patterns, remittance streams and cultural goods. Chi-Vinh (talk) 09:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

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