Talk:Centre-right coalition (Italy)/Archive 1

Page structure

Like the Centre-left coalition (Italy), Centre-right coalition is a generic term that would concern more coalitions. The only difference from the centre-left coalition is that in this case there is a bit more continuity in the latest years. However, it would not be wrong if the page also treat of coalitions before 2008--Wololoo (talk) 23:39, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: As I have already mentioned, the term "Centre-right coalition" doesn't concern a specific coalition that was preceded by the House of Freedoms, but all the centre-right coalitions since 1994. For example, in itwiki there are the pages it:Coalizione di centro-destra alle elezioni politiche italiane del 2008 and it:Coalizione di centro-destra alle elezioni politiche italiane del 2013, that concern instead specific coalitions. For this reason I have edited the page. Furthermore, currently, at national level, there isn't any centre-right coalition, therefore I have changed the seats with the last ones gained in the elections. --Wololoo (talk) 22:37, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Article name

I boldy moved the article back to its original name, Centre-right coalition, because no disambiguation was needed. The concept of "centre-right" is broader than the Italian context, but "centre-right coalition" is specifically used in Italy: there is no WP article on any other country's "centre-right coalition". For consistency, see Talk:Centre-left coalition and my comment there. --Checco (talk) 07:31, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The article was started by User:Nick.mon under the "Center-right coalition" name on 18 February 2013, then moved by Nick.mon to "Centre-right coalition" on 13 March 2013. Without much debate, User:Wololoo moved the article to "Centre-right (Italy)" on 8 February 2017‎. I moved the article back on 28 November 2017. Wololoo moved the article again yesterday and I moved it back today. Wololoo's reason for the move is that "the title of this page was already discussed, excessively generic without disambiguation". Actually, the name was not discussed and this talk is an evidence of that. "Centre-right coalition" has been the longstanding name of the article and, in my view, no disambiguation is needed. The concept of "centre-right" is broader than the Italian context, but "centre-right coalition" is specifically used in Italy: there is no en.Wikipedia article on any other country's "centre-right coalition". --Checco (talk) 08:38, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree that we should stick with Nick.mon's original (established) article title, for the above reasons.--Autospark (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Really, do you talk seriously Checco and Autospark? The term centre-right coalition is used in more countries, such as Czech Republic, Slovakia; Germany etc. ([1], [2], [3], [4]). There is no need for a political scientist to understand that Centre-right coalition is a generic term (even in the Italian pages it is specified that it is an Italian coalition!!!). Why it must always be so difficult with you two? Should I create the pages of the other centre-right coalitions to make you change your mind? What do you think, Nick.mon? --Wololoo (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

ps. The same speech is also valid for the centre-left coalition, obviously!--Wololoo (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, sincerly, it isn't a big problem for me, I can live both with "Centre-right coalition" and "Centre-right coalition (Italy)". Anyway if we want to be more "specific" and avoid any misunderstanding we can add "Italy" in the article's name. -- Nick.mon (talk) 00:08, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Wololoo, I would be more than happy to move this article to a disambiguated name if there were other existing articles with the "centre-right coalition" name, but as yet, there are not. Also, the examples you list from other European countries refer to various coalition governments, not really comparable to the semi-permanent political alliances which exist on the centre-right and centre-left in Italian politics. (Yes, it would be helpful for us all if the current existing Italian coalitions had formal names, as they previously did with Olive Tree, House of Freedoms, etc.)--Autospark (talk) 15:44, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I perfectly agree with User:Autospark and I also think that we should not confuse coalition governments with this established coalition. In several countries there is a centre-right coalition (or there have been several centre-right coalitions under different names or, better, several centre-right coalition governments, quite a different thing from electoral/political alliances), but only in Italy there is the "centre-right coalition". It is a big difference. One could easily start an article on Centre-right in Slovakia, but not on Centre-right coalition (Slovakia). There is indeed an article named Centre-right in Italy, which is quite a different thing from this one. I am sure that User:Nick.mon agrees with me and Autospark, in the end, as the "centre-right coalition" is an Italian peculiarity. I offer the same arguments for Centre-left coalition! --Checco (talk) 08:56, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes the Centre-right/Centre-left coalitions, as two permanent blocs, are an Italian peculiarity; however, sincerely, I've no preferences regarding the two names, I think it's quite clear in both versions. -- Nick.mon (talk) 13:12, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

However, a shorter name is preferable, when a longer name is not needed (as in this case). --Checco (talk) 13:18, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's true -- Nick.mon (talk) 14:29, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Liste civetta

User:Braganza wrote the following message in my talk page, answering to two of my edits ([5] and [6]):

About that there is in the German Wiki article New Land, Abolition of votes deduction

I have not understood exactly what he/she meant. However, I would not include the so-called "liste civetta" in this article and, by the way, I am note sure that the traslations offered are good enough. I did not even understood what "New Land" (would "New Country" be a better translation?) and "Abolition of votes deduction" (no idea on how to improve the translation from Italian) were about in the first place. I will write this comment also in Talk:Centre-left coalition. --Checco (talk) 06:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Checco since 1994, there were in parliamentary elections so 75% of the seats were determined by majority voting but because in the proportional representation votes of the successful list were deducted from the majority vote has invented these bogus lists so that they are candidates for the majority vote.

P.S. New Country is the correct translation and what I wrote is also here: Scorporo#Abuse in the 2001 Italian Chamber of Deputies election

Braganza (talk) 07:07, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

I would not mention the liste civetta in these articles, but feel free to do what you want. --Checco (talk) 07:34, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Lazio

@User:Ritchie92 I add his votes added because the new PLI supported him (the PLI run with Lega in the general election), the Lega and the National Movement for Sovereignty originally supported him. Braganza (talk) 09:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I see, but in the last Lazio regional election I would say that the "centre-right coalition" did not "run separately" (all major components of the coalition at the national level were allied together, except – as you say – for some endorsement from tiny parties, which in my opinion does not constitute the formation of a coalition). We all know this coalition changes composition from Region to Region, and from election to election, and I think in this case it's not difficult to define it and can be identified exactly with the one supporting Parisi. --Ritchie92 (talk) 09:33, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes I know but he get 4/5 % in polls even 7-12% that's the reason

otherwise I would make a note about CP with their 0.3% at centre-left Braganza (talk) 10:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I fully understand your point. But anyway CP is a member of the most recent centre-left coalition and presented itself as a list in the last election. The fact that Pirozzi's civic lists were endorsed by a member party of the centre-right coalition is not enough – I think – to say that Pirozzi's votes belong to the centre-right coalition. One could see all this from a different perspective: instead of saying "the centre-right coalition ran separately", I think it's more like "the new PLI and some smaller parties decided not to endorse the candidate of the centre-right coalition". --Ritchie92 (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I mean 4-5% are already significantly more important than e.g. 0.3% form CP.

that does not mean that I will say 0.3% at center-left Braganza (talk) 10:27, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I am sorry but it's still hard for me to understand what you're saying. The fact that Pirozzi got 4-5% (actually his coalition got 3.8%) of the votes does not mean anything at all: the point is that he ran alone, supported by two civic lists and endorsed by some smaller parties which belong to the centre-right coalition. There's an important difference between the two, and the centre-right coalition, as a coalition, unequivocally supported Parisi in this election. --Ritchie92 (talk) 11:28, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

I fully agree with User:Braganza: the centre-right ran divided in Lazio; Pirozzi and his supporters are clearly centre-righters or right-wingers, similarly to Tosi's coalition and several other cases, both on the right and the left. --Checco (talk) 16:41, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

The fact that they are centre-right doesn't mean they're part of the centre-right coalition. The centre-right coalition in the 2018 Lazio election is well-defined and was the one supporting Parisi. --Ritchie92 (talk) 17:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Surely so, but this article acknowledges the cases in which the centre-right coalition was divided. --Checco (talk) 06:02, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok but I'm arguing that indeed the centre-right coalition did not run divided in Lazio, but it was united under Parisi. There's a difference between the "centre-right coalition" as the specific Italian political phenomenon existing from the '90s until today, and the sum of the parties aligned to the centre-right. The fact that a tiny party endorsed Pirozzi (and did not even support him in an official list) does not mean that we should include Pirozzi in the so-called, well-defined, historical, "centre-right coalition". Maybe we should establish a definite rule to estimate the centre-right coalition in all cases. --Ritchie92 (talk) 07:40, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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What about the "Italexit" party?

Will they also enter this coalition or run alone trying to obtain three percent of the nationwide vote? Any information regarding that issue? 62.226.72.134 (talk) 19:00, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

They will definitely run outside the centre-right coalition and have just formed an alliance with Alternative. --Checco (talk) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Alliance or joint list? As an alliance its basically impossible for them to reach the needed 10 percent of the vote to enter parliament. 62.226.66.238 (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Joint list, indeed! --Checco (talk) 08:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Biased picture of Berlusconi during the 2008 campaign

No need to take a picture showing him with such an arm and hand gesture. 93.206.56.188 (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

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Infobox: "far-right" as political position

I believe this is simply the very progressive American Overton Window's view of Italian politics, not what Italian politics are actually like. I say this because Meloni and Salvini are not viewed as these "fascist" types (a title that didn't stick to them the last time they got elected in 2017 and certainly didn't in 2022) but as conservatives who govern moreso with a social agenda, as opposed to the typical Euro-American "right-wing" movement that usually surrenders culture wars in exchange for tax cuts. I believe that calling them "far-right" no matter what these alleged "experts" of whom none study Italian politics nor understand Italian society (and yes, I am also including The Local in this because even though it has an Italian chapter, it is not really read, nor does it represent a large enough sector of the public who believe in the supposed "far-right" position of Lega and FdI) is a disservice to those looking to learn about Italian politics, scaring them away with this supposed "extremity" of the parties involved. I say this as an Italian who studies in America, while in the American Overton Window would deem anyone to the right of Obama who pushes back against the agenda as "far-right", Italy's political center of gravity remains within the bounds of nationalism, not neoliberal globalism. I would say "center to right-wing" would be a more accurate way of describing the platform of the parties in the coalition. Not only do they include centrist Christian democrats, but also Christian conservatives, right-populists and disaffected anti-establishment types. No one in the movement actually fits the mold of a "far-right" Neon Nazi or anything anywhere near that position. 160.253.0.7 (talk) 14:43, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I do not agree with all the arguments brought forward by the IP above—and in 2017 there was no election, but I agree that "far-right" is a long shot both for Meloni and Salvini, as well as their parties. The FdI is right-wing, the League is basically centrist. --Checco (talk) 22:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Political position

I've opened a similar discussion on Centre-left coalition (Italy). So I'll be asking the same question here, should we:

• keep the status quo
• change it to something else
• remove the position altogether

First of all, let's see the sources for far-right:

• Ref 8: "far-right League party", "after speeches by a string of far-right leaders as well as billionaire former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi.", "far-right Brothers of Italy" – this source does not quite describe the coalition as far-right, but it does describe its two members as far-right. Still, this is a violation of WP:V.
• Ref 9: "far-right Brothers of Italy party", "far-right leader Matteo Salvini" – again, fails WP:V.
• Ref 10: "Tens of thousands of protesters gathered in Rome on Saturday for an “Italian Pride” rally involving the right-wing League, the far-right Brothers of Italy party, and former premier Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia." – fails WP:V, only FdI is mentioned as far-right.
• Ref 11: "If Giorgia Meloni comes to power at the head of a far-right coalition" – this could be interpreted in different ways because it does not directly mention the centre-right coalition and instead calls it far-right.

Conclusion is that most of these sources fail WP:V as the coalition is not described as far-right in these sources, some of its members are described as far-right instead. I wasn't able to find better sources where the coalition is directly mentioned as being far-right. I've also checked the Daily Telegraph and Politico sources for centre-right, though they only mention the coalition in name, I'll quote: "as a centre-Right coalition", "The centre-Right’s candidate", "attributing the success of the centre-Right coalition", "his center-right coalition with Silvio Berlusconi’s Forza Italia". Considering that this is a more heterogeneous coalition than the Centre-left, because this one has members on the centre-right, right-wing, and the far-right, I think that the best solution would be to remove this altogether. Vacant0 (talk) 09:45, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Good job! I agree on your conclusion even though the centre-right coalition is less heterogeneous than the centre-left coalition and it is quite inaccurate to describe any of the members of the centre-right coalition as far-right (interestingly enough, the League is surely to the left of FdI, which is a mainstream conservative party). --Checco (talk) 19:58, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Support. No sources claim that the centre-right coalition that ran in the 2022 election was far right. Themanoflaw049 (talk) 06:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Introduction to article

Last sentence of last paragraph reads, "This is the first time the centre-right won a general election since 2008." This information is not correct, as the centre-right coalition also won the previous 2018 general election, albeit not capturing an absolute but only a relative majority of parliamentary seats. Notably, this is the first election since the 2008 general election that an appointed head of government was clearly mirroring the electoral victory. Please amend or rescind statement! Giulioseal (talk) 16:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

It is correct insofar as winning the election is understood as forming a government, which they failed to do so; the last full centre-right coalition government before 2022 was in 2008. In fact, during the 2018 legislature only two of the centre-right coalition parties governed, and did so with the other opposition forces. By your argument, the centre-left and the M5S were the real winners in 2013 and 2018, since they were the largest party, respectivey, and no government could be formed without either of the PD (2013–2018) and the M5S (2018–2022). In practice, both 2013 and 2018 were hung parliament and inconclusive results, as the government had to include parties across the political spectrum. Either way, I have amended the text to say "a majority of seats", which is indeed the first time they had a majority of seats and thus a full centre-right coalition government since 2008. Davide King (talk) 14:50, 14 August 2023 (UTC)