Talk:Canadian English/Archive 1

Language in Canada and Bilingualism in Canada

This artical Canadian English, is not mentioned in Language in Canada or Bilingualism in Canada. Can it be useful? Cafe Nervosa | talk 17:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Suggestion for Spoken Article

This article would be perfect for a spoken article.
(Also my aunt in Portland, Oregon says 'mondee' instead of 'monday' and 'perfic' instead of 'perfect'. Don't know if this typical of that region--I'm Dutch. But I digress) ---Marc NL

Southern and Radiator

Does anyone here ever notice that Canadians tend to pronounce the word "Southern" as "Sow-thern" rather than "Suh-thern"? Am I the only one that does this? Is this a feature of Canadian English or just my English?

That seems to be a Canadian thing. I have an American friend and "Sow-thern" drives him crazy. So does saying "raa-dee-ay-tor" instead of "ray-dee-ay-tor" --Munchkinguy 18:27, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we should mention this in the article. -- rlwelch

I had the same comparison as raydeeatory/raadeeaytor when I said apocryphal or atypical or something like that once, and the guy I was talking to cut me off and said he'd never heard it pronounced that way; I think it was ay-typical. He wanted to hear aa-typical. He was from Toronto, living in Vancouver, and a discussion ensued on the different education environments (we had a lot of straight-from-Britain/Oz teachers, for one thing). Being Torontonian, of course, it had never occurred to him that anything he knew wasn't implicitly correct because it was the way it was in Toronto (no, really, that was his attitude). He said British Columbians all sounded "hick". It didn't occur to him that it was HIM who was 2500 miles from home. Skookum1 08:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm in northwest Canada and I say raydeeator and ay-typical. I've heard of people saying raad- but aatypical? That's a new one for me.

---

Serviette

Bad example. Lots of English-speakers all over the world say "serviette" rather than napkin. Perhaps the difference is that Canadians are not trying to be posh when they use the word? - clasqm

In that case, go ahead and remove the sentence about serviette!

Not unless I (or a Canadian, more likely) can think of a better example to put in its place. That's how it works here IMHO. - clasqm

In my idiolect, a napkin is made of cloth, while a serviette is made of paper. I'm guessing my idiolect is representative of wider Australian English, but I've learned to be not entirely sure. -- SJK

In mine, too. - montréalais

I'm from Vancouver and we always called things out of paper, napkins. I called the cloth ones "cloth napkins".  :-) My granparents (2nd and 3rd generation canadians) however seemed to call everything serviette. dave 18:52 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I've used both; but note that serviette most likely came here from Britain, rather than from Quebec. Just because a word is of French origin in English doesn't mean it's still in use in French, or that it means the same thing.Skookum1 08:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I've always used paper napkin for paper napkins, and napkins for cloth napkins.

---

Well, if I were to use serviette at all, it would be in reference to the kind of paper napkins that come from those steel-rectangular cafeteria dispensers.Skookum1 06:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Standard Canadian English vs BC English(es)

I've read that the 'Standard Canadian English' dialect (the type of English spoken in most of Ontario and points west) is the most geographically widespread dialect of any language in the world. It said (and my own experience backs this up) that there is essentially no difference in accent or word usage over the entire area - whereas both these things change noticeably for every other language in every other country over dramatically smaller distances.

This incredible amount of uniformity, apparently, is due to the fact that Western Canada was settled so recently, and the inhabitants (mostly Ontarians and non-English speakers) didn't have the time in isolation (before the advent of mass communications) to develop their own accents.

Can anyone more knowledgeable back this up? - user:stewacide

OK, I'll try and answer you - but you won't find me backing the pan-Canadian monodialect thing. I'm hard and firm on the notion that there are distinct accents in Western Canada, despite extensive efforts to homogenize us, and to perpetrate the myth that only Newfoundlanders and Maritimers have a distinct accent (whuh? First Nations people for starters, and many more). Just because you don't listen for it doesn't mean it isn't/wasn/t there.

I'm from British Columbia, born in Vancouver, raised partly in and near the Fraser Canyon and in the Central Fraser Valley and have lived in Greater Vancouver, Victoria and Whistler for most of my adult life, with some time back in the Canyon or abroad or whatever and have tooled around most of southern BC at one time or another, at least once (that's a lot becaus of the distance and isolation sometimes involved; it's a big place; not because it's hard to take).

So I've heard a lot of accents from smalltown to posh old money homes (old BC money, that is). And "coming home" into the Canadian dialect regime after a while abroad can sometimes be a bit strange; but it makes you hear the local differences, and the speed with which this place (Vancouver and the Lower Mainland) has changed makes it so you can hear how the local way of speech has changed.

Needless to say I dispute the notion that Ontarian English is standard across the country; that's become the case because so many Ontarians have moved west, and of course because of the homogenizing influence of the Big Media. There's definitely - or was definitely - a BC dialect, or a group of dialects since the Interior and the Island had their own pecularities once upon a time, and each valley in the Interior could be somewhat different depending on who had settled there and so on. Modern transportation and the communications revolution changed all that, and in the course of the migration inwards there came the notion that everything here was just the same because it was also part of Canada. But nothing could be further from the truth.

The ethnic composition and immigration/settlement history of BC is quite different, even from that of the Prairies, and the way people "lived apart" for so long because of the mountains and waters etc In the Interior there can be a distinct cowboy twang, more Arizonan than Texan, and that's historical; although some may say it's not "Canadian" the reality is that that identity is a core part of British Columbia's history and culture; same with the fishermen, or the guys on the docks, and in the milltowns. There's definitely accents; just because no academic has ever condescended to document them means they're not there, or weren't (you can't study something after you've extinguished/absorbed it.

Special words from BC are many, including the famous ones from the Chinook Jargon - skookum, hyas, hiyu, muckamuck, saltchuck, the chuck, skookumchuck and a few others. There's also specialized industrial slang - greenchain, choker, and we always say logger rather than lumberjack, except as a soft joke as in "lumberjack's breakfast" (a mondo-sized breakfast plate invented in old Gastown c.1870). "Spinny" used to be BC-idiosyncratic (for a type of girl) but I think it's fairly widespread now. And some areas have borrowings from the local native way of speech; in Lillooet there's something like a "kweesht" which expresses sudden dismay or disgust that everyone uses but is clearly St'at'imcets (or Chinook in origin, flavoured by St'at'imcets. Whites there will use sama7 to call to each other (pron. shama and very derogatory, but the only word in the language for whites]]. I'd imagine the same is true elsewhere in towns with large native populations; the local term for "hey, white boy" is probably adopted into local English, or known of at any rate.

Also, "Back East" and "Down East" and "Out East" in BC means Toronto, not the Maritimes. Well, it includes the Maritimes, but it starts at Kenora, or maybe Thunder Bay.

The term "Big Smoke" is British Columbian in origin, and meant Vancouver. All that mill smoke, and all the big fogs (smoke is Chinook Jargon for fog, which used to be very common, unlike today). Now Toronto's gone and stolen it (we hear it on the national news all the time - the national news discussing not much else than what's going on in Toronto, of course), even tried to make it into something of their own public image. Not surprising since they've looted the rest of the country for culture, and imported a hundred or so more, because they didn't have any of their own in the first place (other than Orangeism). Ok, I'm being satirical but it's true that Big Smoke was part of BC slang, and dates back a century; musta been taken home to Ontario by someone who lived out here for a while.

There's also the issue of the omnipresence of British English, and various forms of overseas English, as well as second-language speakers being part of the social fabric for most of this century in great numbers. I grew up around Scots, Irish, Australian, Indian (subcontinental), Indian (First Nations), American (various kinds), Germans, Scandinavians, Chinese, Greeks, Hungarians, Italians, and Slavs, and the people I'm talking about are as much a part of thed social fabric as I am - and have been since my time (b.1955). So their accents are (to me) legitimately British Columbian; you don't think twice about hearing them.

The funny part is that despite all that British Columbians at one time were supposed to sound American to Easterners (see note above about "Back East"), but when I went to McGill for a year (74-75) I found a lot of the Canadians (I was in residence, so they were from northern Ontario and the Maritimes mostly) they sounded kinda American to me; i.e. the Ontarians did; almost Ohioan. That would be because of the north-south nature of social relations along the boundary; I can hear an accent in Seattle (Seaddle WARshintun) that's definitely Okie; but ask someone from outside the Pacific Northwest and they'll tell you people here talk like Seattlites; except for that about/aboot thing.

We also have a long-standing connection to California (including me personally; my mother was born in Toronto but raised in California, has lived in Canada since the war but stays in touch); historically Vancouver was originally settled via San Francisco – and the Orient – not overland, not at first anyway. So the California traits are around, especially surfer style lingo among youth; we also got a hefty dose of Draft Dodgers in the ‘60s and early ‘70s, and quite often they’ve been high profile in the media/politics/business etc

All this devolved off your question about populations and language in Canada. You'll note in the backnotes on Vancouver that there are more people with less-than-three generations out of Britain than there are people whose families have been in Canada (from Britain) for at least three generations. Yes, it's because it was settled later, but it was also a different cut of Brit, some from the Raj, some from HK, some from the Indies or the Cape; and despite the huge influx in from Toronto the last decade and more it's interesting that there's still so many Vancouverites with direct British connections.. But it was also a different kind of settler, from a different class background and from different countries, and BC has been multicultural since long before Pierre Trudeau tried to claim credit for the idea, and impose it on the rest of the country (which is what was done, to varying success).Skookum1 23:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

"Vankewver" vs "Vankoover"

One further comment; lately there's bits in the paper occasionally about how native Vancouverites (i.e. someone from here, not a First Nations person) pronounced the city's name; supposedly Vankewver. And what gets me is that they put it like WE are saying it wrong. Not that I've ever noticed the difference. Could be because of the endemic Dutch, Slavic and Scandinavian influence; Dutch especially in the Lower Fraser Valley, Slavic in the East End and most of the Tricities and north side of the valley.

I don't mean to be overlong, or controversial, only to lay out some observations about BC English, speaking as a BCer. If someone could edit down all the stuff above and depersonalize it some of it should be in the main article; then this item can be truncated. I just had to tell it like it is.... I couild always trim it up myself and make it into an article reffed off the Canadian English page; i.e. on BC English; but I don't have documentation or primary sources (tapes, studies etc), only my own observations and experiences. Skookum1 08:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I've never noticed anyone in Vancouver say "VanKEWver". What's the deal with that?--24.207.39.200 14:51, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard VanKEWver from my vantage point in northern Canada, growing up with CBC radio and television.

Toonie and Loonie

I think the words "toonie" and "loonie" should be removed as examples of "uniquely" canadian words. I was kind of surprised that they were on the list, because it's just what we call our dollar and 2 dollar coins. They are basically just slang. However there is no alternative in British English or American English. Chesterfield however, does belong there, as does toque, if in fact they call it something different in Buffalo or other American cities where gets damn cold in winter. My point is, the article seems to emphasize the differences between the english languages, however this list just mentions some slang terms which don't even have alternatives in other countries! like toonie and loonie. I also don't agree with Garburator being rare in Canada since I have had a garburator all my life, and my parents were by no means rich! I'm from Vancouver though, maybe this article was writen by an Ontario-ite? dave

I've been waiting for the five-dollar coin which will come along sooner or later into circulation - a "Foonie", presumablySkookum1 23:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

"Canadian English also has its own words not found in other variants of English."

Along with serviete, which is used frequently in Britain, the words "francophone" and "anglophone" are are also used and understood there.

It says that most Canadians pronounce about aboat or abuht, and cant kayant. I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone I know pronounce them like that, nor do I. I pronounce them about and cant, like the average american (I say eh all the time though)

You probably prounounce them like that without realizing it. (It's actually a very subtle pronuncation difference that is difficult to hear unless you have been specifically trained to listen for it.) Adam Bishop 04:19, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Kayant" with two syllables? That sounds very U.S. to me.

But "about" is definitely a way to recognize a Canadian, as are "house" and "mouse". We say "abowt" with a very short "au" sound and the lips coming together in a pucker. Everyone else says "abawt", with a sort of open "OW" or "ah-ooh" sound—more of a diphthong, sometimes approaching two syllables. —Michael Z. 17:36, 2004 Sep 7 (UTC)

I find that the second vowel of "about" is held longer in the eastern provinces than in the west. In the west, it is pronounced like the US Northwest accent. The almost "two-syllable" sound of the second vowel is a distinctive characteristic of the east, not the west. Cadillac 05:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Where's "the West", please? And where are you writing from? "The West" is a fiction, and there's no such place, especially in the case of the regional accents out here; Albertans, fresh from Alberta, DO sound different than BCers, for instance. And the "two syllable" sound you mention is vaguely defined; I've heard drawl-y diphthongs in Alberta, and in the Interior of BC and Vancouver's surburbs, that definitely aren't, for example "abEwt" (E=schwa), but are also different from each other in style and sound. Yeah, there's a longer -out vowel in the Maritimes; but there's different ones in "the West", not "shorter" ones. But again, where's "the West"? Generally out here that term is either used by Central Canadians, or by Albertans presuming to speak for all the other provinces and their people (as in the current election campaign).Skookum1 05:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Rancherie

From the Spanish rancheria, perhaps via fur trade French, or else brought in from California during the 1858 gold rush. Refers to the residential area of an Indian Reserve; typically in rural areas a hoary old log cabin one, but in general it means the residential 'burb of a reserve. It's sometimes used in ref to specific groups, e.g. the old Kanaka Rancherie in Vancouver, which was around the shore of Lost Lagoon, where the boathouse is; also called the Cherry Orchard, this neighbourhood was where Gastown's many Kanakas (Hawaiians resident in the NW) resettled after the Gastown Riots of the winter of 1885, after which the original multiethnic character of early Gastown was pushed out; in the same circumstances two other ethnic-refuge neighbourhood-placenames emerged - China Creek, Hogan's Alley (Hogan being one of those in town of African descent).

Rancherie is a bit antique, but it's common enough in the Interior and at certain places on the Island ("the Island" means Vancouver Island, of course).

Sorry and Washroom

The article does not mention the other two words that (in my observation) combine with "about" to make the uniquely Canadian shibboleth: "sorry" (rhymes with "hoary", not "sari") and use of the word "washroom" where other dialects would use "toilet", "WC", "bathroom", etc. I don't think any of these is unique, but I believe the comnbination is.

Maybe it's because I'm from Toronto, but my pronunciation of "sorry" is somewhere inbetween "hoary" and "sari."

The vowel-raising phenomenon is also heard among educated native New Yorkers (as in the city).

..Educated eh? You've obviously not been to Brooklyn, Queens, Bronx.

Hey, man, if you think it goes in there, add it. That's the glory of, that's the story of...Wikipedia. jengod 02:51, Jan 23, 2004 (UTC)

EAVESTROUGH is another uniquely Canadian word (look it up). --Xwu 16:15, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's not uniquely Canadian. I am from northern Indiana, though my father's side of the family came from Wellesley Township, Ontario (which has a unique German/Canadian dialect) and I have heard "eavestrough" ever since I can remember. In fact, I've never heard my Indiana-born and raised stepfather call it anything else. - MarshallStack

---

Like, hoser, eh?

* hoser: a genereally dispariaging term, often used with "eh?", i.e. "You're a real hoser, eh?

Does anyone still actually use this? I've never heard anyone say it in a way that wasn't self-conscious. - Montrealais

In all the many times I have gone to Canada, I have never heard a Canadian use this. The only times I have heard it used were when "Bob & Doug McKenzie" were popular during my "Grade 10" year of high school, when people went around going "Take Off, EH, you Hoser" to sound like B&D.--MarshallStack 13:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I've heard it while driving across the country through Northern Ontario, and from what I know by the people I met it's the Hamilton-through-Scarborough working class/hick standard for a certain crowd. Albertans do use it, but in a different way; goes with that twang. The Bob'n'Doug thing is the Golden Horseshoe equivalent of Valley Girl, except it ain't a hot chick in trashy clothing gossiping about makeup, it's two guys in tuques and mackinacs (now there's a pair of Canadian words, especially with mackinac pronounced properly -aw, sing.) talking about, or rather through, their beer. "Hoser" describes such an individual, who unfortunately fit the Bob'n'Doug image all too well, and not half as much intelligence, often as not, and yeah they do exist. Particularly in Alberta, Ontario, and the greasier Vancouver suburbs (well, that's almost all of them, but . . . )

Regarding Mackinac. I was unaware of Michigan having been annexed by Canada. Rmhermen 19:15, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Cute, and it's not as if northern Michigan hasn't thought about it. But mackinac/mackinaw is a word you'll find all the way from the Yukon to Newfoundland, especially from Ontario westwards but AFAIK in the Maritimes too. US-side you find it in Michigan, maybe Minnesota I guess; but you find it everywhere in Canada.Skookum1 19:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you failed to read the link. Mackinac is a place, it is in Michigan and all usages of the word and its pronunciation proceed from that fact. It is not Canadian at all. Northern Michigan has tried half-jockingly to become a separate U.S. state, not to join Canada but some guys from southern Michigan once tried to annex Upper Canada to Michigan. See Patriot War. Rmhermen 00:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, please, take them (oh, you're not from southern Michigan ... but could you take them anyway??). Seriously (I'm a British Columbian). All the rest of us would be better off without them.

Other than that of course I knew about Mackinac, MI; didn't make the contextual/syntactical link at the time, re what had been said - is it pronounced the same way as we call the jacket. More fun if there was a Tuque MI just down the road, maybe ;-)Skookum1 01:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

"Eh?" did become a regular joke, i.e. a catchphrase or something you'd "lay on" - self-consciously, as you describe it, but commonly and casually - especially in the '80s, and there was also a widespread movement of Easterners into the West at the same time, spreading it there; but the Albertan version is older, more cowboy, and more connected with that peculiar "bark" accent you get in some parts of rural Alberta; or maybe it's ethnic background; sort of a slavic-scandinavian intonation. Never ever heard it in Montreal, or from a Montrealer; except un quebecois speaking English, that is. Then it's very common, almost archetypal of hard core quebecois (or mock-quebecois accents in English. The cowboy/logger twang in the BC Interior also has it, but there's lots of Maritimers there, as is the same in the fishing industry on the Coast. And it's the equivalent of the Golden Horseshoe Hoser, species homo canadiensis beerae

It's certainly part of the catchphrase, waddya know eh?, which I can hear just about anybody I know from Cape Breton or elsewhere in Nova Scotia, or a Newfoundlander. But again in a different way, and not Bob'n'Doug style.

Skookum1 07:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dispute?

When adding a dispute comment, it would be helpful if it were mentioned, what partcular parts of the entry do you feel are inaccurate.

Steggall

==What's a "higher vowel""?

The phrase sounds like it may be real, or authentic to linguistics. Is it? Some justification for an inherent rank-order of vowels would be cool. rmbh 07:10, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

Canadian - American

Made for Canadian actors working in the U.S. on the different pronunciations (Canadian vs American)

"SOME IMPORTANT PRONUNCIATIONS TO WATCH FOR (Critical words marked by *) From Canadian to American

Canadian - American'

Sorry - Sahrry - a as in sari. Canadians say sohrry.

Twenty - Twunny (Drop the t. Distress the e)

Ninety - Ninedy

• Again, against - Agen, agenst (Canadian: agayn)

Tuesday - Toosday.

• Been - Bin, not bean

Interest - In-trist (drop the middle e) "intristing" or "inneresting"

• Z - Zee. Canadians say zed

Semi - Semeye on its own. Semi-finals, semi-conscious, semi-professional.

Sometimes semee, when attached to another word. i.e. "semi-trailer"

Anti - Anteye. Sometimes but not always. Anti-biotic, anti-bacterial, antee-freeze

• Schedule - Skedule, never shedule

Roof - Roof as in tooth (rhyming with woof is regional)

Route - "Rowt", when referring to a path, journey or itinerary of stops. "Root" when referring to a road

Sure - Sher. Sometimes Shoorr

Often - Offen. Not often

• Detail - Ditail

• Data - Dayta.

Really - Rilly. Canadians say Reely.

Coupon - Coo-pon. Canadians say cyoo-pon.

Drama - Drawma (does not rhyme with "gramma")

Toward - Tord

Associate - Assoshiate (this includes all its forms, i.e. "associative", "associating" etc. with the exception of "association" which is usually pronounced "ass-oe-see-ay-shun")

Decal - dee-cal

Foyer - Foyer. Canadians say foy-ay.

Mirror - Meer

• This list is silly. Most of these distinctions are formal vs. informal, not Canadian vs. American. Few Canadians can be bothered to fully enunciate words like "Twenty" or "Toward".

The list is silly, and tiresome to work through; but for people in the film and broadcast industry it's part of your training. It's not that Standard American English exists, other than as a discipline; but what it helps with is getting rid of regional idiosyncracies (Canadian vowels, e.g.) so that more specific dialects can be taught afterwards. But silly as it is, the comparisons given are regularly taught, if not entirely accurate as an American standard.Skookum1 21:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• I've rarely ever heard route pronounced "rowt"; and never in the military. From Alberta to St. John's, I've only ever been on a "root" march. SigPig 6 July 2005 01:20 (UTC)

but you would have heard route/rowt with with the Canadian version of the -ow diphthong, not the drawn out, jaw-chewing American version.Skookum1 21:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I have heard it occasionally, but I was under the impression that route like rout is a U.S. pronunciation. A friend of mine who is picky about Canadian English asked me to explain the etymology of an ethernet router. Now she always calls it a "rooter". —Michael Z. 2005-07-6 02:44 Z

American movies and television also have French Canadians speaking with Parisian accents, and I think the same concern accuracy was shown in this list. Kyewpon, indeed. For a start, most English Canadians know some French. John FitzGerald 13:43, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

While the list is long and possibly regional, I find it accurately lists out all the words, and how I say them! Perhaps it's because I'm from Toronto... if the word is shared throughout Canada and not anywhere else, then why not include it? Kareeser|^Talk! 16:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Although not pronunciation issues, Canadian actors might find saying "ice skate", "ice hockey" and "winter ski" unfamiliar when they are used to simply skate, hockey and ski. Speaking of footwear, I am particularly proud of Canada's distinctive "running shoe", even though it seems to be yielding increasingly to the American "sneaker". What Americans call a "corn dog", Canadians call a "pogo". --Bob Du Broy, 9:24, 31Dec05

Really? Are you sure you're not being adversely influenced by the product "Pogo" (the corn dog)? I've never heard it casually called a pogo... Kareeser|^Talk! 15:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Really. Pogo is generic as well as a brand name, same as kleenex or whatever. WilyD 13:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Maritime(Canadian) English

Why isn't maritime(New Brunswick, PEI, Nova Scotia) english mentioned on this page? The unique accents of the area are completely ignored by this website, and come to mention that, any other website I have ever seen about 'Canadian' English. I know that most of english in Canada is quite homogenous, with the notable exception of Newfoundland, but there are definitely regional accents in the maritime provinces that are easily recognized as not being 'standard' canadian. In fact I would say some of the regional accents are quite unique to North America. Why are they not addressed here? Has no linguist ever taken time to study these regional dialects?

My knowledge of developments in dialectology in this regard is not exhaustive, and I too would be grateful for additions from a knowledgeable person. I agree that the article is deficient in this regard. - Montréalais 21:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Request

Is there any evidence to support these generalizations:

Anecdotally, the "abuhwt" or even "a-beh-oot" vowels are heard in Ontario and further east, and the "aboat" vowels are heard in the Western provinces. Also heard are: "can't", in Ontario, almost "kayant," whereas in the west, it becomes more "kahnt."

Notwithstanding the above, most Canadians say about as "a-bow-t" where you take a bow, not the bow and arrow.

They don't describe the Canada in which I live. There should be research about this. I'll look for some but if the authors of these statements know of any that would help. John FitzGerald 13:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Check out the current Old South commercial. Buddy says "aboot" tout pur. Twice. John FitzGerald 5 July 2005 03:33 (UTC)

I can't tell what the question is asking. The ad-hoc pronunciation guides mean nothing. If nothing else, they'd be pronounced differently just the same way as the words they're trying to represent would be. —Michael Z. 2005-07-5 04:03 Z

• Does "abuhwt" have a shwa sound or an [u] sound?
• In "a-beh-oot", does "beh" represent [be] or [bi]?
• I guess "aboat" sounds like "a boat". But wouldn't that be different to a Newfoundlander and an Albertan?
• How can "can't" be one particular way to pronounce the word "can't"???
• Does "kayant" sound like [kæjænt] or [kajant]?
• I'm guessing that "kahnt" means [kant], but hopefully not [kʌnt]...

"Notwithstanding the above, most Canadians say about as "a-bow-t" where you take a bow, not the bow and arrow."

Doesn't sound right to me, although I don't know much about regional differences. I'm from Manitoba, and to me bow sounds like [baʊ], about sounds like [ʌbəwt] (not sure if my IPA is perfect, but I think that gets the distinction across). The transcription "A-bow-t" ([ʌbaʊt]?)sounds like U.S. pronunciation to me. —Michael Z. 2005-07-5 04:11 Z

What I was askinh for seems pretty clear to me (but perhaps I have misunderstood your comment). I wanted to know what evidence there is from linguistic studies. I did say I was going to look research up myself. Spose I should, eh? John FitzGerald 6 July 2005 13:12 (UTC)

Eh?

Canadian "Eh?" should be discussed here.

Why? --Munchkinguy 22:29, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Number of English speakers

30 million? How was that arrived at? Are all of the 5 million French speakers bilingual? I doubt it. Check the 2001 Census and revise that figure downwards. That is not to mention the many Canadians whose native language is Cantonese, Mandarin, Hindi etc and who do not really speak Canadian English, indeed can hardly muster up a few words, especially older people. Many of these people speak British English or some other variant of English (such as Caribbean) rather than Canadian, so someone should look into the number of true "native speakers".--BrentS 17:23, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How many Francophone Quebecois will try to use English in communication or admit that they can even speak English? I remember talking to a guy in Ontario who did a six-month construction job in Montreal and he said that he had trouble getting served in restaurants and bars because his French wasn't very good, and it seemed that the Quebecois were very put out about having to speak English to him. I think probably the major reason Quebecois I run into here in the States speak English is because very few Americans speak fluent French and they know that unless they speak English (or Spanish, depending on where you are!) they won't be able to communicate very well.--MarshallStack 06:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Grammatical error?

I don't want to edit this myself, mostly because I'm tired and my grammar is off, but this part sounds odd: "College student" is Canada might denote someone obtaining a diploma in plumbing; --- 24.76.141.132 01:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here's another one (it's a paragraph):

"In Canada, the word 'premier', as meant to be the leader of a provincial or territorial government, is pronounced "prem - yare" in most places, as opposed to the United States, where it is pronounced "prem ear". Premier, as in a movie premier, is pronounced the same in Canada as the rest of the world."

For one thing, all the people I know (I live in Manitoba) pronounce it "preem - yer". The other thing is that a "1st Movie Showing" is spelt "Primiere", so this entire paragraph may be useless. --Munchkinguy 03:49, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm another Manitoban who says "Preem-yehr" Gary Doer, and movie "pre-MYER", but I don't spell anything "Primiere". —Michael Z. 2005-04-1 05:49 Z

Sorry, I meant "Premiere". --Munchkinguy 22:48, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mary != merry in Quebec only?

An anonymous user just added this line:

among native Montreal anglophones, a distinction between /æ/ and /a/, unique in Canada, so that Mary and merry are not homophones

I don't think this is correct; I was born and raised in Toronto and speak with the same distinction. Ergo, it must not be "unique" to Montreal anglophones. Unless anyone can back the claim that it is unique, I'll revert it (in a day or so). -- Hadal 03:58, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

- I was raised in Scarborough, and I definitely have a subtle difference between Mary and merry.  I'd pronounce Mary to rhyme with Gary, but merry to rhyme with Jerry.  Or do those words rhyme to everyone elese?

What about marry? —Michael Z. 2005-04-6 17:42 Z

British Columbia

   * [aɪ] diphthong pronounced [↑ɪ]

I'm from BC(central interior) and I have no idea what this means. Could someone give me some examples?

Short "a" in Ontario - this is not a universal pronunciation for Ontario

Not all parts of Ontario use short "a" in words like "drama." I, and everyone I know, from Windsor, ON, say "drama" like "draw-muh" and "pasta" like "paw-stuh." I wonder if it is a Southwestern Ontario thing.

Or maybe the fact that you're so heavily inundated with Detroit media in Windsor. Windsor only has one TV station, doesn't it (last time I was there it was CBET, Windsor 9)? As compared to how many in Detroit...--MarshallStack 05:36, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

- Definitely goes both ways in Toronto

It's more a personal thing I guess. I've noticed variations from Americans as well. --Bash 18:33, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Preponderance of -ize spellings

The article does not mention that -ize spellings predominate in Canada (organize, not organise) to the point that it is often quite hard to find a current usage of the British spelling. Along with the preference for -our endings (neighbour), this produces the uniquely Canadian amalgam that the article does discuss. (Canada: neighbour/organize; Britain: neighbour/organise; U.S.: neighbor/organize.)

Would this not be a reasonable addition? – joeclark 18:40:21, 2005-08-14 (UTC)

Oooh, does that make colourize a uniquely Canadian word? moink 22:12, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't believe it would make 'colourize' a unique word. Most British dictionaries offer '-ize' forms before '-ise' and encourage '-ize', but reject '- yze' as a non-standard U.S. variant. 'Colourize' is definitely not a Canadian spelling. 'Colourise', 'colourize' and 'colorize' are all very common, whereas 'colorise' seems to have less ground.

I am Canadian, but I overwhelmingly prefer UK spellings and punctuation, as well as those now obsolete UK spellings. Canadian Spellings are very confusing and inconsistent. There is, to my knowledge, a universally accepted way to spell Canadian. Throughout high school and primary school, my teachers switched between 'programme' and 'program', 'analyse' and 'analyze'.

Spellchecks are useless. My version of Microsoft Office accepts both 'color' and 'colour' when set on English (Canada). 'Color' would definitely get you marked off in Canadian Schools, but that is most likely because of identity and anti-americanism, I think. Kioku 01:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I've seen many things which describe 'colourize' as incorrect; -ize being a Latin suffix, it should be applied to the Latin root i.e. color-, hence the prescriptivistly correct British spelling is not colourise (Prescriptivist Brits tend to prefer -ize), nor colourize (mixing French and Latin), but colorize, much like labour+ous → laborious. In fact, the Macquarie Dictionary (AusE), which use -our and -ise for its headwords, lists colorise as the headword, though given that -ise is a French suffix, it would make sense to add it to a French root word i.e. colour-. (I've always assumed it's because much of the Macquarie is a translation of another dictionary and they misinterpreted the *colorize spelling I expect was there).

In any case, all four possible combinations exist and are all used in many numerous places. I myself prefer colorise... (FWIW, -ize is an old and still current British spelling, whereas -or is an old but now no longer current Australian spelling (except by people like me).)

Spellcheckers are also useless for Australian English. We overwhelmingly prefer -ise, even more (I'm told) than Brits, but MS reckons we spell 'organise' as 'organise', but 'organisation' as 'organization'. But I think most people know that spell checkers are completely useless anyway. Their knot sow grate.

—Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 02:59, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford Dictionary has the headword:

col•our•ize (also col•or•ize; esp. Brit. -ise) . . . col•our•iz•a•tion

U.S. or British English spellchecks are indeed useless for Canadian English, but that's only because Microsoft doesn't give a poop about us. The built-in system spelling checker in Mac OS X (10.3 or newer, I think) comes with a rather good Canadian English option, which marks U.S. and British spellings as incorrect. If you have an older version of OS X, you can install cocoAspell, a plug-in spell-checker which includes (I think) the same Canadian word list. Of course, the system spelling checker only works in every Mac program except MS Office. —Michael Z. 2005-10-13 14:10 Z

I was head of the word-processing pool for the World Bank Conference held at the Hotel Vancouver about 15 years ago. We had a style guide that specified spelling standards/requirements for all the many varieties of official English. There were distinctions between the Malaysian official English and the Singaporean and Indonesian official Englishes, and HK different from them and so on; India and Pakistan and Bangladesh all had different spelling requirements, and so on it went. We had to be careful in our spell-checking so that we didn't use one country's spelling in another country's documents. And -ize/-ise was one of the biggest parameters we watched for; some countries use the -ise Britishism but not the -our Britishism, and there were other subtleties, including the use of -ize on some words and -ise on others within the same country-style. There were at least 80 version of official English, by country, that we had to observe. A Fr**king nightmare, ultimately, and took 25 of us to keep on top of it.Skookum1 22:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Lieutenant/Lef-tenant

What about "lieutenant/lef-tenant"?

I've met quite a few members of the Canadian military and they invariably use the British "lef-tenant"; however, once when I was at the CN Tower in Toronto I heard a young boy refer to "LOO-tenant Commander Data" from "Star Trek: The Next Generation".

I also once heard Alex Trebek show his roots by prounouncing "lef-tenant" in a clue about "The French Lieutenant's Woman". The late Peter Jennings also did this now and then.--MarshallStack 13:44, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Canadian Forces members use the correct lef-tenant pronunciation, but in my experience most Canadian civilians say loo-tenant which is commonly heard in cop shows, war movies, and Star Trek. —Michael Z. 2005-10-13 14:23 Z

Are most of these cop shows, war movies imports from the US? Mark 04:10, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Yup. —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 20:42 Z

It's used on Da Vinci's Inquest and Cold Squad and other made-in-BC-about-BC shows, too; presumably for marketability into the US; don't recall hearing the news media use "leftenant" for police ranks; only for military ranks or the L-G, and smetimes not even then (in the case of the L-G). BTW the proper plural of Lieutenant-Governor is "Lieutenants-Governor" but it's rarely heard; for some reason "Governors-General" does remain in ordinary media speech, if not always.Skookum1 22:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I've heard members of Commonwealth navies use something similar to the US "loo-tenant" but it sounds more like "luh-tenant"--MarshallStack 00:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

A couple of TV urban legends:

Peter Jennings was so insistent on using "lef-tenant" that ABC News technicians had to hold up cards saying "LOOTENANT" whenever he was supposed to say "Lieutenant"--MarshallStack 00:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently in the early days of "Star Trek", when William Shatner was "more Canadian" than he is today, scenes had to be re-shot because he would say "lef-tenant" to refer to his Starfleet officers--MarshallStack 00:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

A few years ago, when I was a USAF Auxiliary lieutenant, I met a CF T-33 pilot at an airshow here in the States. I saluted him when I saw his Captain's epaulettes and said "Good afternoon, Sir" and he must have recognized US rank insignia because he returned the salute and said "Good afternoon, Lef-tenant."--MarshallStack 06:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

we use digraphs?

Where it says:

British spellings which include digraphs (or their two-letter equivalents) are beginning to disappear from Canadian spellings. Words such as encyclopædia, dæmon, fœtus, and pædiatrician are spelled encyclopedia, demon, fetus

I've lived in canada nearly every day of my life for 27 years, never have i seen an æ or œ... is this a joke? Either way "beginning to" can't be the right word. --Trode 19:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

These are considered rather obsolete in all forms of English. According to Bringhurst's Elements of Typographic Style the ash (æ) and ethel (œ) are only used for deliberate archaism or in academically precise quotations. Encyclopædia Brittanica uses an ash in its name, but encyclopedia in other contexts. —Michael Z. 2005-10-17 20:56 Z

On the lyric sheet for Rush's 1982 Signals album, the word "anaesthetic" in the song "Digital Man" uses the "ae", rather than the American "anesthetic". Interesting in light of the fact that the band's lyricist, Neil Peart, has used American spellings almost exclusively since the early 1990's, their recent studio album is called "Vapor (rather than "Vapour") Trails" and bassist/vocalist Geddy Lee titled his solo album "My Favorite (rather than "Favourite") Headache". I've heard that the Canadian releases of both those albums have the "u" added but unfortunately I didn't check the last time I was at a music shop in Canada this past summer.--MarshallStack 02:16, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Riding

"Several political terms are uniquely Canadian, including riding (a parliamentary constituency or electoral district)."

This is completely false. Riding is an old English term; the Yorkshire area of England was once split up into Ridings.

But the ridings in Yorkshire weren't political constituencies. You might as well argue that the statement is false because elsewhere in the English-speaking world people use riding to mean travelling on a horse.

About / Minnesota

As a native Minnesotan, and someone who's been all over the state, I can attest that no one in Minnesota says "aboat". I have friends and family in Winnipeg and Toronto, and they certainly would argue that I don't talk like them as well. Canadian Rising sounds just as distinct to my ears, as it isn't a feature of the Minnesotan accent.

One can hear it in certain parts of Michigan, unsurprisingly those near the Canadian border. I've heard it in Port Huron, which is opposite Sarnia, Ontario. People in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan also say "eh" more than some Canadians I've talked to.--MarshallStack 05:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I can imagine that to be true. --24.31.29.171 11:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

A tourism slogan for the Upper Peninsula of Michigan has a bumper sticker that says Say yah to da U.P., eh! Maybe they got it from the folks in Northern Ontario.--MarshallStack 06:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

People all over the world say eh. Mexico, UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, France, South Africa. The list goes on.

Expletive "bloody"

I have infrequently heard "bloody" used as an expletive in southwestern Ontario, in a similar manner to its being used in the UK, Australia and New Zealand. Does it carry the same connotation of profanity as in the UK? Here in the U.S., if someone says it, the impression is that they're trying to be a "pretend Brit".--MarshallStack 05:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The term, as it's used in Ontario, is usually tame in comparison to the Brit usage; it's akin to crap, heck, or damn. There are instances for which the usage implies a stronger meaning, but that's derived from context. For example, "you better not bloody do that again!" is strong because of the tone of the message, not the use of the word bloody. Note that I'm no expert on the matter, though... Mindmatrix 19:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Common in BC - gimme that bloody thing. I don't bloody care, you bloody asshole, etc. Lots of Scots and other Brits here historically; we pick it up from our grandparents and neighbours and such; it's also a feature of Indian English, ie. from India, which is common in Vancouver also.

Sounds almost like Australia. "Bloody" is used quite a lot by many Australians, even though its meaning is stronger than in Canada. You can even hear it slung around in the Australian Parliament during heated debates. I think I heard it used once by an MP during a session of the Canadian House of Commons televised on C-SPAN here in the States (not sure what province the MP was from).--MarshallStack 02:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Bloody used to be much stronger in Canada. In my childhood in the 50s the newspapers used to spell it "b----y" when they had to quote someone, and you definitely did not use the word around adults. Now it's much tamer. The newspapers spell fuck in full, too. John FitzGerald 00:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

You'll hardly ever see "fuck" spelt out in full in the mainstream media here in the States, except maybe for something like Rolling Stone magazine; it's either "the F-word" or "f**k". I use "bloody" very occasionally (almost as an afterthought) but never when I'm in Canada...I never wanted to run the risk of offending someone. We attended church once in Ontario and I didn't tell the pastor "bloody good sermon" or "bloody sour communion wine". ;)--MarshallStack 06:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Avoid "bugger", too. it's not all that offensive in Canada, but it's more offensive than in the States. An American I knew used to say that in Canada people recognize the connection between "bugger" and "buggery".

"Bugger him", "bugger that" and more come to mind; very common in B.C. but maybe it's because of the strong British legacy here, as with "bloody" and "shag" and "twit" which are also all common here. I do remember by staunch-oldstock Mother getting all upset if we used "bloody" on something; but she'd just as readily call someone "that old bugger". One thing I've heard - from Americans - is that Canadians are recognizable because their language is so profane - that it's one long blue streak; they're not used to that. Not sure why we swear more, but apparently we do (see my comments elsewhere about "pissed" et al).Skookum1 22:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I knew something about "bugger/buggery" from a legal sense. I remember reading in Maclean's magazine some years ago that someone had been charged with "buggery". The equivalent word here (depending on the state) would be "sodomy", but that's falling out of usage because of its religious connotations. Usually it's pronounced "booger" here, like what comes out of your nose, as in, "Why, that little booger!" and there's no sexual connotation.--MarshallStack 06:11, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• • "Buggery" in Canadian law doesn't have exactly the same connotations as "sodomy"; it specifically connotes sex with a person below the age of consent. Bearcat 00:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

When it's used here in the States, which is very rare, "buggery" usually means anal sex (consensual or not). "Sodomy" is fast disappearing from the political lexicon with the gradual repeal of anti-"sodomy" laws on a state-by-state basis, except by those on the extreme right. I remember when I was in the military, "sodomy" was prosecutable (and still is, but rarely enforced) under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, even if it was consensual between a man and a woman.--MarshallStack 06:43, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Supposed disappearance of Canadian English in ON

The assertion that Canadian English is being replaced by American English in Ontario requires substantiation from a refereed journal or similar source. I don't know of any so i removed it till someone can provide one.

The only American English I hear in Toronto or Western Ontario, the two regions where I spend most of my time, is spoken by Americans. I believe regional accents throughout North America are in fact becoming more distinct. The Canadians I meet speak rapidly, monotonously, and without opening their mouths very wide (which produces the distinctive diphthongs) – that's not American English. John FitzGerald 23:56, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I would definitely agree with you about regional accents remaining strong. Vis-a-vis Canadians, I can almost always tell one of our northern neighbo(u)rs when I meet them, and not just because of the supposed "aboot" issue. The way of speaking is just distinct, or maybe it's the fact that I've spent a lot of time in Ontario (unfortunately, I've never been to any other province). However, when I've met people from other provinces, I can tell it too. I live near Interstate 70 in Indiana, near Indianapolis, and there are quite a few truck stops just down the road from me. I very often see truckers with Canadian license/licence plates - mostly Ontario, Manitoba and Quebec but occasionally BC and Alberta; I don't think I've ever seen any from east of Quebec. I can almost always pick them out by accent in the truck stops. Even the Quebeckers/Quebecois I hear speak English in a way that sounds not dissimilar from other Canadians, or maybe the trucking companies in Quebec just send drivers down here that are more fluent in English...I don't know. Canadians do not sound like Americans, nor should they. The main thing I notice is the increased adoption of US spellings in Canada; i.e., "color" instead of "colour" in many places. May be odd coming from a Yank, but I don't think that's a good thing.--MarshallStack 06:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Regional accents are of course strong here, too. Even here in Indiana; I come from the far north of the state but now live in the middle of the state. You can almost draw a line corresponding to roughly the trajectory of US 30 from Fort Wayne northwest to suburban Chicago. People south of there (including my wife) have a marked "twang" but people to the north sound more like Chicagoans or Detroiters. Sometimes I even get mistaken for being Canadian, which I consider a high compliment! :)--MarshallStack 06:01, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

As an article in one of the English quality dailies some years ago said, the only people who can tell Americans from Canadians by their accents are Americans and Canadians. They're also the only people who can tell American accents apart. Here we get a lot of exposure to upstae New York accents, which are certainly distinctive.

There is of course no boundary between Canadian and American accents corresponding to the border, but on the whole the characteristic intonation (or lack thereof), speed, hyponasality, and frontal speech production of Canadian heartland speech don't appear all that frequently in the States. I was thinking of a report I read some time ago about academic research on regional dialects which concuded that regional accents were differentiating throughout North America. If anyone knows more about it it might be relevant here. In fact, the speech of Western Ontario sounds more Canadian to me these days than it did when I was growing up there. I recall it as sounding more like Ohio English back then. I'm not a linguist, though, nor was I then.

Canadian spelling I know something about, since I used to go to the track with an authority on Canadian spelling, Robert J. Ireland. Colour is not a Canadian spelling – since there is no generally accepted standard of Canadian spelling – but a British one. The word was routinely spelt color by Canadians until the Canadian government converted the -or words to -our in its publications in the 30s and provincial ministries of education then started anglicizing (incompletely) the spellings they taught (they also tried to anglicize pronunciation a bit, but that was pretty much a bust). I still use Ontario Ministry of Education spelling – colour, centre, organize, program, manoeuvre, jewellery. John FitzGerald 17:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I have an Oxford Canadian Dictionary that I bought on one of my trips there and I actually use it more than a Webster's. I also use "Commonwealth" spellings frequently because I read a lot of British literature (especially Tolkien) - drove my high school teachers and college professors nuts. However, I notice that most Canadian bookstores also sell Webster's, though in smaller quantities. I would think that whatever form is taught in schools would be "standard Canadian English," though never having attended school in Canada I don't know what that is. I've heard that some Canadian schools are teaching the American "zee" rather than "zed" because Canadian children see US TV like "Sesame Street" so much and it causes conflicts with what they're trying to teach. Can't confirm that, though.--MarshallStack 06:15, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, to be honest, we don't really get Sesame Street up here anymore unless we're watching PBS on cable or in a border town. Although we still get a lot of American cartoons, almost all of the educational-type children's programming we get now is Canadian-produced stuff like Polka Dot Door or Nanalan'. Bearcat 00:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm I grew up in Toronto and watched Sesame Street as a child and there was a Canadian version on TVO that used the "zed" version of the letter (the PBS station from Buffulo had the American version as well though). Also in school it was always "zed" as well.

Spelling isn't taught in Ontario schools, at least not where I live. It's whole language teaching. The students are supposed to pick spelling up naturally. In the United States the press, government, and other important institutions all use the same spelling, but not in Canada. And institutions which have spelling guides will often issue publications with spellings which are contrary to the guide. It's not uncommon to see programme in school board publications instead of program, for example. John FitzGerald 03:39, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Maybe that explains the sorry lack of spelling ability among copyeditors in the national media (print and TV); I'd thought maybe it was because of second-language speakers being given copy editor work, but the "whole language" education agenda seems a likely source. One basic error which I saw earlier today (in the Vancouver Sun) was "Netherland" instead of "Netherlands", but that's really basic. I'd have to pore over stuff to find more, but it's all over the place, especially in the papers. I've also noticed lately that broadcast English avoids irregular-form past particples, e.g. "pleaded guilty" instead of "plead guilty" (where plead is pronounced plehd as opposed to pleed for the present).Skookum1 09:35, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

You don't have to document it any more for me. Not only the poor spelling but the astonishing ignorance of journalists strike me every time I read or watch their product. Whole lanuage and other contemporary educational fads do have something to do with it, I'm sure. Another part of the reason is probably that in the old days the important newspapers and networks hired university graduates with degrees in political science and English and taught them to be reporters, while today they hire graduates of journalism programs, who probably know more about the mechanics of journalism but less about political science or English. You see that in other countries, too – for example, the frequent assertions in the American media that the Whitewater scandal was like the Watergate scandal could only have been made by people who didn't know anything about Watergate and were either too lazy to find out something about it or too ignorant to know how to. John FitzGerald 18:58, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Chesterfield, sofa or settee?

Which is the most commonly used in Canada? "Chesterfield" and "settee" are almost never used here in the States, it's either "sofa" or "couch", or sometimes (rarely) "davenport". My extended German (Alsace-Lorraine, actually)/Canadian family in Wellesley Township, Ontario, use "chesterfield".--MarshallStack 05:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

"Couch" or "sofa" are actually by far the most common terms in Canada as a whole; while "chesterfield" is considered characteristically Canadian, it's primarily a regionalism and/or an age-related sociolect. It's not really standard in Canadian English anymore (although we almost all still understand it, it's not the word most people use.) Bearcat 06:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that's true. Certainly when I speak "Chesterfield", "Sofa" and "Couch" all carry the same denotation, but they have strongly different connotations. I'd almost says it's wrong to call the ratty mass I picked off the curb a chesterfield - it's a couch. Roughly speaking, chesterfields are the highest end, and couchs are the lowest end, i.e. you invite the Queen to have a seat on your chesterfield, your mother buys a nice new sofa at Leon's, and you let your stoned friend crash on your couch. I doubt I can find a citation for this - but it's certainly how I understand the language. WilyD 22:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

A settee is smaller; like a loveseat. Of the others I'd say "couch" is the most common; you hear sofa but it's like hearing someone say soda instead of pop; it sounds "different". I agree about chesterfield passing out of use; there used to be a class/style difference between them, a chesterfield being a bit more, um, fancy or elegant or something. A couch is a thing you pick up at a garage sale for 30 bucks; a sofa is preferably soft and full-looking; something that's like a dentist's office _couch_ you wouldn't call a sofa; nor is it a chesterfield; there's a formality to chesterfield that's lacking in the others. I'd wager a proper "chesterfield" design has a certain structure to the arms, back and legs, e.g. carved wood fronts or a certain "sweep"; a couch or a sofa doesn't have to have that, but I have a suspicion at chesterfield does. Like with "davenport" (something of an American equivalent term) - I always think of Danish modern when I hear that, but I expect the original was a certain kind/shape of, um, large settee, but with a frilly or rococo-y kind of design.Skookum1 19:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

When I was a youth in Western ontario in the 60s chesterfield appeared mainly in chesterfield rugby. Rugby for football was dying out then, too – my high school principal always called football games rugby matches, but the rest of us called them football games. And really, it's not rugby. These days eavestrough seems to be getting competition from roof gutter. John FitzGerald 03:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

"Chesterfield rugby"? Sounds like a euphemism for canoodling in the living room...SigPig 00:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Driveway definition (lane way)

A lane way is described in this article as "a driveway of a house. In Canada, the word 'driveway' refers to the portion of land in between the sidewalk and the street". In what part of Canada is this statement referring to? In southern Ontario (Toronto area and north) I have never heard a word for the land between the sidewalk and the road. It's just "city property". As well, never have I heard the place where you park a car on your property called a lane way. It's a driveway.

A laneway, however. Is a small and often one way street with restricted parking oriented behind buildings to allow access to things such as, garages! This way you don't have to do your crazy parking on the main road. Laneways are often contained by brick walls, privacy fences, fences with overgrown greenery, or garbage. Also, crackies may be found in many of Toronto's lane ways.

Look at this link for a good example of some laneways. Hover over, then click the black dots near the laneways. http://www.graemeparry.com/laneways/maps/laneways_1_2/laneways_1_and_2.html --72.142.86.68 15:56, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

In rural areas 'laneway' seems to be used to refer to a road (usually gravel) leading to a farmhouse. I've always heard the portion of land between a sidewalk and street callled a 'boulevard'. --CODOR 19:04, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Me, too. John FitzGerald

BC English section?

I've held back on adding to the "Regional Variation" section because it's obviously based around prononciation; so I put some of BC's special lexicon at the end of the section just before (it could be bigger, but I focussed on only two CJ words and ignored other local specialty words for now). Prononciation, though, shouldn't be taken for granted out here (as it so often seems to be by other Canadians, as I've pointed out here before). Just yesterday at work one of my coworkers, who has a certain style of speaking, let it out that he was from Vernon (in the Okanagan) and, sure enough, everyone else I've known who's had that style of speaking is from Vernon; not from Enderby, not from Armstrong, not from Salmon Arm, not from Kelowna, but from Vernon. I think the reason that there's little knowledge of dialects in BC is that it's been assumed that there aren't any so no earnest little linguists have toodled out to the boonies to collect them. There are definitely regional styles of speech, and some prononciation issues too; I don't have enough IPA and I don't have any references (because no one's studied in the area; because it's assumed that they don't have to etc.) so for now I can't add meaningfully to the Regional Variations section, at least not in regard to the old local dialects in BC (which used to be fairly distinct because of the geographic isolation from valley to valley and occasionally in the case of specific towns, such as Vernon; but I'd bet there are more if I had the time/talent to study it).Skookum1 10:18, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

"Allophone Dialects"

One thing that's overall missing from this page is "allophone prononciation/grammar", to borrow the Quebec word for someone whose mother tongue is neither English nor French. Well, leaving the obvious fact of First Nations English dialects aside (these are native English speakers, often heavily influenced by French and Irish because of the Catholic clergy's presence in the schools - upon their parents and grandparents, that is), the presence of so many ESL speakers in Canada (throughout the 20th Century particularly in BC and the Prairies) means that heavily-accented English is very present in ordinary society, be it one's parents or at the store; traits from this influence wind up in native-speaker English. Other than calques, articular usages include things like the dropping of the plural form and pronouns and some prepositions in Vancouver English, i.e. not just when an ESL speaker says them, but potentially because native speakers will use the ESL grammatical form when speaking to an ESL person, or someone they believe is ESL, e.g. "How much banana?" meaning "how much are the bananas?". This is very common in Vancouver, so much so that it's taken for granted and you often don't realize you've done it, or don't stop to think about it anyway.Skookum1 10:18, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

British influence/presence in BC

A comment in the Talk page on Vancouver mentions, in surprise, that of the British-ancestry citizens and long-time resident families in the province very few go back farther than three generations in Canada. Was a time when a thick Scots brogue, Geordie and other British dialects were so common in BC that "no one noticed", and typically someone with English or Scots ancestry could get "patriality" (the right to a UK passport) if their parents of grandparents were born in the Auld Sod. Politically-correct cum Canadian nationalist historians always express dismay that it was more common to find British newspapers on the newsstands in BC (especially in Victoria, New Westminster, West Vancouver, and the Vancouver neighbourhoods of Kerrisdale, South Granville and the West End than it was to find Toronto or Montreal papers; equally, disgust is expressed in histories concerning the British predilection for establishing cultural institutions in the province (all other ethnic communities do this with approval; the British receive opprobrium for it). The British presence in BC communities and organizations also influenced the "allophone dialects" in BC - more than "Canadian English" (as such) could have, given the relative proportion of Anglo-Celts in BC vs. the Anglo-Saxon/Celt population in ON, QC or the Maritimes, who are of a different selection of British stock and also have been in the country longer.Skookum1 01:50, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up

I had a long conversation on a bunch of different topics with a friend yesterday who's also a published author/journalist. He had been this last week talking with two or three other "name" poets/authors of British Columbian extraction, and they were discussing old pronunciations common in BC that are now no longer heard; the example I remember is "harry" (sort of) vs "hurry", and in general a British-style use of pronouns, the disappeared 'r' at the end of some words, and so on. Of the three names he mentioned, including his own, two were from southern Vancouver Island (one is the great-granddaughter of a colonial governor, in fact) and he himself is Irish-Canadian of working-class stock around New Westminster and Pitt Meadows, so it's not just a British-class relic-accent we're talking about, but something he (and they, and I) remember as current in the way English was spoken in BC before the mass homogenization of Canadian English promoted/forced by the CBC/CTV and before the mass migration to BC of Maritimers, of Ontarians and other Easterners ("Easterner" is a BC term for anybody from east of the Great Lakes, sometimes for anybody from east of the Rockies).

Because linguists and academics have needed to pretend that regional distinctiveness in BC either does not exist or was not worth studying does not mean that it didn't exist; all it means is that that the academics were too busy studying First Nations languages instead of anything else in BC (not even Toi Shan Chinese, the original dialect here, has received much study). In parallel, the Canadian-academic fashion in dumping on the once intensely-British cultural milieu in BC has ignored the influence of those people's accents on their own offspring and the culture which built up around them; hence even someone from a non-English background, such as the friend above already described, had neo-British pronunciations in their ordinary speech. Combine that, in the Interior, with the legacy of the cowboy/Dixie twang that typified non-British settlers in the Interior, and you get some pretty special accents that, although the academics maintain they don't exist and so they're not going to study them, manage to persist, if only in our memories. Denials of the relevance or validity of this from Canadians from outside BC only make the case stronger. That there are no academic cites is a failing of academia, and of the stilted, biased agenda of Canadian cultural sciences and linguistics.Skookum1 20:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

As someone born and raised in Victoria, I can attest to the existence of what I call "Vancouver Island English," which does have a certain precision and Englishness about it. People I meet occasionally ask if I'm English, in fact. One need only listen to David Anderson speak to get a taste of this accent. It is, alas, fast dying out as the Island has become much less isolated. One quality of the dialect is the elongation of the "o" (the "o" in "know" pronounced like the "o" in "toe"). This is not my imagination - not only do I do it, but living now on the mainland, I've identified fellow Vancouver Islanders by these peculiarities of dialect.Fishhead64 05:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Special words, phrases and names in BC English

There's almost enough here such that "British Columbia English" should almost its own page, and there's more to be put in. I imagine "the Nnnnn" (the Lakehead, the Muskokas, the Laurentians) is common enough, but we've got Willy's Puddle and Lillywet and Nana-eemo and Vic and Prince and his buddy Rupert and more, plus varied prononciations and other slurs. Here's the list so far (if I should move it to a new page, or the main article page, let me know):

Pet names for politicians etc.

• ”Duff” – Duff Pattullo – long-time BC Premier
• "Miniwac" – William R. Bennett, premier 1975-1986, also known simply as “Bill” or “Billy boy”; also “Bill Jr” even though he’s not officially a “Jr.”
• ”Wacky” or “Wacky Bennett” – W.R. Bennett’s father W.A.C. Bennett; used both affectionately and derisively. Also “whack-a-doodle”, which was sometimes also used for Bill Jr.
• ”the Zalm” – Bill van der Zalm. Also used affectionately and derisively. Also simply “Zalm” and, like his predecessor, just “Bill”.
• “Willie Woodenshoes” also Vander Zalm, but a little less affectionately; because he's so highprofile as a Dutchman and because of his thick Dutch accent and ethnic self-identification
• ”the Headband” – Zalm’s wife Lillian, so named because of her taste in ‘70s-style disco headbands (and the accompanying bright-pastel track outfit/pantsuit, even on semi-formal occasions); subtext of the nickname is she's also seen as being a bit ditzy; a middle-aged Dutch-Canadian born-again Catholic "Valley Girl", more or less.
• ”the Hat” – eccentric and highly loudmouthed realtor and flowered-hat wearer Faye Leung, who played a major part in “the Zalm’s” downfall
• ”the Commies” – i.e. the BC NDP, aka the “godless socialists” or “socialist hordes”
• ”Socred” – Social Credit, as incarnated in the twisted world of BC politics (little relation to parties of the same name in AB, QC or the UK). Cartoonist Len Norris coined the term “Ye Socred Cow” for the government run liquorstores, otherwise known as the LCB (Liquor Control Board) or, since renaming, the LDB (Liquor Distribution Branch)
• ”the boys” – can either mean the Mounties or the H.A. (Hells Angels), depending on context.
• ”Victoria” and “Ottawa” are synonyms for the provincial and federal governments respectively.
• ”Howe Street” – equivalent to Bay Street or Wall Street; formerly the location of Vancouver’s infamous corrupt Stock Exchange (well, it’s better now, supposedly cf. Pacific Exchange, which is the amalgamation of the old “VSE” with the Calgary Exchange)
• ”scotch and cornflakes” – a reference to the drinking/breakfast habits of members of the BC Legislature, arising from a certain Miniwac-era cabinet minister’s hobby of showing up sloshed for the morning sessions (don’t quote me but I think it was Jim Nielsen, who also got his face bashed in by his estranged wife’s lover when he confronted the guy while drunk; please don’t sue if I’m wrong, Jim; maybe the “scotch and cornflakes” thing was Bill’s trip).
• a "D.D." or "D-D" - a draft dodger from the Vietnam-era US, plus a few more recent ones since the start of the Iraq War. Maybe this is used in Eastern Canada, too, I wouldn't know. Draft dodgers are an important component of local BC society and influenced attitudes and politics upon their arrivals; the West Kootenay and Vancouver-Victoria in particular are thick with them; prominent D-D's current mayoral candidate Jim Green (as of tonight quite probably the mayor given the look of the campaign Sat Nov 19/05)
• "the finger" - a reference to Pierre Trudeau's "fingering" of local middle-aged protestors in Salmon Arm during a cross-country rail trip in the mid-1970s.

Feedback

Almost none of these are unique to BC. Even people in Newfoundland know who "Wacky Bennett", "Miniwac" and "Willie Wooden-Shoes" are; although we have somewhat less occasion to refer to them in conversation, we all use those exact same nicknames when they do come up. We all know Howe Street is Vancouver's business district. We all call them Socreds. And using the capital city's name as a synonym for the government isn't unique, either. It happens right across the country (with, obviously, the requisite provincial-government variation), and it happens in the United States, too ("Washington ain't taking away my guns!") It's a universal linguistic process called metonymy, not a unique feature of BC dialect. Bearcat 07:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Dialect was an awkward word to use, and it's not meant to be an exclusive list; but words that had their origin in BC, or couldn't have existed without the place. What I was more trying to get at that there's words that are intrinsic to the soul of the place (if it has a soul), which characterize it - the point is exactly Wacky Bennett's fame, or that crazy Dutch guy with the tulip in his teeth. All we have that is truly unique - but still shared with WA and OR, and OR is really where some of it came from - is the Chinook Jargon stuff; the scattered remnants that are in contemporary English (not all that obvious sometimes), and in the style of speech in some areas (visit the Chilcotin some time and you'll realize what I mean).

I know there's a cowboy accent in the Interior, and it ain't an urban cowboy accent like you hear in Calgary, either, and I know the historical why; I listened to buddy from Vernon again the other day; if I ever get a chance I'll make a soundfile from him or someone with the same sound. I know if I go into a household or community hall of third-generation native English speakers of First Nations extraction, there's going to be a different accent going on. That I can't back this up with documentation is why I brought my wordlist to the Talk page; a while ago I wanted to say that I think the thing to do is to put it on a page linked out of the main BC page. Linguistically, overall, the main thrust of my belief about English in British Columbia is that, other than subtleties with certain groups of native speakers, the commonness of a hearing accents from a wide variety of languages within any given community (except perhaps the rich areas of the city, until the 1970s that is) was extremely high. In daily speech you were used to hearing people whose only daily language was English, but who had often extreme accents; if they were to speak their mother tongue it would be rusty (as I probably said somewhere, my father forced himself to forget his). So the milieu of English conversation in BC was heaviliy ethnic (and multi-coloured) right from the first days of the Colony and before. Emblematic of that are the Chinook Jargon words which survive in the local English argot - is that an acceptable word? - and are common enough that newcomers pick up the meaning and begin using them; few people know that either word is of First Nations origin.

OK as far as BC English goes, it's only a lexicon at this point, and that's what I wanted to get back here to say. It's not an exclusive one like in Newfoundland; this place has always been a blend, with English so common a language for a large number of ethnic groups precluding any possibility any specialized ethnic or social slang. But there is certainly an argot unique to the place, that you can't function without in some areas; not like a different language, but a different-culture space.

As for CJ was spoken across the classes and colours; it's kind of like that with English here; a lingua franca - lingua angla - where the point is not the prononciation, it's what you're saying and how you're saying it. That's one of the main issues with why CJ was spoken so widely; although you could have a specialized "ethnic" prononciation in it there was no precise phonology to make it difficult to learn.

That linguistics hasn't studied this is why it can't be "proven" in a Wikifiable sense and I'm fine with that. If I ever get the chance I'll start making tapes of myself and others for your analysis. It's not so much a dialect in the strict sense I was talking about; as a particular linguistic and accent-ridden milieu. Sure, the rest of the continent is multicultural now - I'll never forget getting lost in a cab in Boston with a driver who spoke only Russian - but the point with us is we've been that way for a long time; we haven't been around as long as other areas, but for all of that time there was no one group here that had primacy (other than the First Nations until about 1895, numerically if not otherwise; it was after that their population dropped below half the provincial total). First Nations English deserves to be studied linguistically, and my contention is that the maritime English of the Coast and the cowboys and miners in the Interior should be compared to, say, a West Vancouver investment banker. Betcha ya'll find some diphthongs. Somewhere on the main page someone said something about there wasn't anything that was identifiably Canadian in the different things you hear in the West; I think they meant the ethnic accents there, but the point is if you hear a cowboy drawl you think American, not Canadian )or a put-on Canadian cowboy like those fellers in the fancy boots in Calgary). That the particular accents of First Nations peoples are different enough to be the subject of some infamous lampoons (including one circulating on an RCMP computer last week) suggests there's enough of a difference to be lampoonable. Only an accent. But not a dialect?

It took me a while to find this discussion again; I've been watching for it but couldn't find where on the CE page it was. I'm not trying to make extreme claims, only to qualify the notion that there's only one Canadian way of speech. BC has a different enough lexicon that we often get asked by newcomers and visitors what this or that means; and that includes people from AB and ON. We've been heavily homogenized in recent decades, especially by broadcasting as much as by in-migration, and we were heavily new-import ethnic (everybody was ethnic, be they anglo-Canadian, Scots Presbyterian, Swedish, First Nations or from Kwangtung or Owyhee or San Salvador. And the extreme isolation demanded by the landscape meant that different valleys developed different identities and culture-spaces (and some still do, especially a place like the Chilcotin, the Slocan or the Bulkley; even moreso out on the Coast). It's just I know that we've had such a different cultural-social history than the rest of the country - not multicultural since the '60s and '70s, multicultural since the 1850s and 60s. That there must be some traits left over that might be discernible; oddly enough the only thing I can "prove" is the CJ words, unless I at least had tapes; but I knew from the start there'd be no academic position on this other than all Canadians spoke the same. But that we've generated lots of special words and nicknames (known outside the area or not) points to some kind of linguistic stewpot going on.

I've rambled; it's late. I put this stuff up to get feedback, and thank you for that. Basic thing is my agreeing with you about it not being qualifiable, but also to explain my views on what academia might find if it ever bothered to go looking. It hasn't, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there. The cowboy twang/drawl and the Indian styles of speech are all recognizable here; and those of that know accents would know someone from the Interior as not being American, as they might sound to you. And that would also be because the Interior towns have maintained long contact with their cowboy-country to the south, and were cowboy originally. Are they Canadian or aren't they? I dunno; a hundred years is a long time. Gotta zzzzz.Skookum1 09:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Tags for Ministries, Crown Corps and Govt Departments

These items transferred to Canadian slang

Basic abbreviations and “shorthand” names

These items now transferred to Canadian slang.

Joke names and nicknames

• "Billy's Puddle" – Williams Lake (used half-derisively in the southern Cariboo, usually rural/smalltown users. Also Willy’s Puddle.
• "the Lake" - used more locally around Williams Lake, and often specifically meaning the bar, i.e. the beer parlour in the Lake Hotel (recently burned down); all hotel beer parlours are referred to this way – the Bellevue (in Mission, aka the Smellview), the Haney, “the Del”, the Astoria and so on.
• "Chillywack": Chilliwack pron. chih-lee-wak as opposed to chih-lih-wak. Same category as Willy’s Puddle, Cash Crick, Lillywet and such
• "Squish" - Squamish. Also, lately, "Squampton" (it rains a lot, y'see, beautiful though it is). \
• Mispronouncing Quesnel (KWEH-nel) as KWEZ-nel is a bit popular too, but I don't think I'd say it there (it's a tough town, very tough and of a certain breed; wouldn't be surprised if someone tracked down a dialect given the forceful personality of most people I've met from the northern Cariboo, come to think of it). As a family name I've heard this pronounced like "Connell", with the stress on the -nell.
• "Pembertoonians" - folks from Pemberton, used in the Sea-to-Sky Corridor and Lillooet and thereabouts; Pemberton is the “hick” end of “the Corridor” (Horseshoe Bay-Squamish-Whistler-Pemberton-Mount Currie)
• “Lillywet” – I hate this one if it’s used accidentally, but as someone with roots in the area I’ve been known to use it to, just like the other locals. Same category as Billy’s Puddle or Cache Crick or Pembertoonians. Lillooet is often mispronounced by those not familiar with the name, e.g. Lilloh-WET. Frontier-era attempts to spell this name were many, e.g. Lilloet (still common), Liluet, Littlewhite, and more. Originally Lil'wat, also spelled Liluet or Lil'wat or Leelwat (Lil'wat is the proper spelling in St'at'imcets orthography
• "Cache Crick" - Cache Creek. Very common, especially in the Interior.
• “Ditchmond” or “Ditchland” – Richmond, so called for the deep drainage ditches which line all major streets (much of the city is below sea level, not as bad as New Orleans but still pretty risky. There are no basements in Richmond, needless to say)
• “Mission Shitty” – I graduated from Mission High but have to admit this I’ve heard and also used; the place’s old name was Mission City and the downtown area still gets called that (that was Mission City, before amalgamation with the surrounding “muni” – municipality). Partly it’s just derogation but it may have its origins from the presence of a large First Nations community, relative to other Valley towns (cf “the Valley”); that’s because not only of the long-standing Oblate mission which is how the town got its name, but also because of the inmigration of young natives from rural reserves east along the valley, especially once the residential school became integrated into the local public school in the late 1960s. There’s also a strong prison-associated population now because of two federal contributions to the local economy in the 1970s at Ferndale (cf. above).
• “Whalley World” – a certain part of North Surrey. I couldn’t tell you about Surrey girls here (partly because there's so many jokes, and partly because of the content of those jokes), but I can get away with Whalley World. Whalley is the old name for the region of downtown Surrey the municipal councils have been fervently trying to change to Surrey Central for some now; but even “Surrey Central” sends chills down your spine if you know the associations. “Surrey Centre” is what most people settle on when they’re being polite; “Whalley World” when they’re not.. Thing is, “Whalley World” refers to not only the place, in a general sense of going there as if you’d been to Mars (no, I’m not kidding). Part of the association is the tacky pawnshops, greasy gyms et al that once typified the area and, in more recent times, the carnival of crackhouses and lowgrade prostitution and thievery/mischief that typifies the local, um, nightlife.
• “Slurrey” refers to the whole municipality, generally excluding South Surrey/White Rock (i.e. south of 56th Ave/No 10 highway). Surreyites have their own derisive term for the lowlands adjacent to the Pattullo Bridge – “the swamp” I think, or something close to that. Surrey is "somewhat" known for having unlicensed vehicles and other stuff in the front yard of houses, and for being a cheek-to-jowl mix of urban and rural areas, as well as the most dominant Punjabi population and culture of all Vancouver's suburbs. Some say the radical TV comedy the Trailer Park Boys should have been set in North Surrey.
• Then there's "East Van" and "Surrey", both unique places with certain flavour, specific identities and attitudes (darkly banal as they may be; reminiscent of Brooklyn and the Bronx relative to the respective local milieu) and generating a whole range of specialized slang that has influenced BC-wide English ("Surrey girl", which there should definitely not be a Wikipedia page for); "East Van" doesn't just mean the East Side of Vancouver, but an, um, unaffiliated "organization" of a certain "criminal motorcyle gang" (as the local media/police put it in their press releases to avoid mention of the "H.A.". East Van is also a large part of local pop culture, whether in allusion to the neighbourhood boys who've "done good by doing bad" or just in ref to the lifestyle or political leaning (leftist, either unionite or lefto-green radical; but you can just as safely say "I live in East Van" without any of the other assocations being incurred on you (unless you fit the bill, of course). See “the skids” elsewhere.
• “Gay Bay” – English Bay Beach in Vancouver, on the edge of the gay-intensive West End. Usually used derisively (and not at all by the gay community). There’s also “the Fruit Loop”, which is the park-sex part of Stanley Park near Second Beach/Lost Lagoon, which is used in (and was invented by) the gay community.
• ”Canucklehead” - A diehard fan of the Vancouver Canucks hockey team, typically of the hoser persuasion.
• "Schiz" or "Skits" - short for Kitsilano, also known as Kits; short for schizophrenic/shizoid
• "ChillicOOtin" - folksy variant of Chilcotin, very cowboy-ish.

Feedback

Geographic nicknames belong at Canadian slang, not here. They don't constitute a distinct dialect. Bearcat 07:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

There are few ditches left in Richmond. Now that it's become a big city, it's only the rural areas that are absent storm sewers. The term "Ditchland" has passed from use. Fishhead64 06:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Hickisms

• “Up Bonaparte Way” or “Up Nicola Way”, or simply “up Bonaparte” etc where Nicola and Bonaparte are region/valley names (they are) is common in the southern Interior; even in Cache Creek if you’d said you “drove up Bonaparte way” it’d mean either up towards the rancherie (means native reserve residential area, usually old with a church and hall and such) or ‘’way’’ up towards Bonaparte Lake, past Clinton and out east towards Clearwater. All these kind of things depend on where you are of course and doesn’t apply to all names, i.e. you’d have to include “creek” or “river” or “lake” or whatever after in some cases.
• ”the bush” – equivalent to the Aussie outback, more or less; usually means a backwoods work camp as opposed to a small town, although it can be used with the same sense as “in the boonies” or “in the sticks”. “Bush whacked” means gone stir-crazy from living out in the bush.
• "upcountry" - not really hick but of a hick flavour in origin; means anywhere outside the Lower Mainland, typically the Cariboo and northwards.

Special pronunciations

• ”Houston” – pronounced like Houston St in New York, not like Houston TX (i.e. ‘’Howston’’).
• ”Seton Portage” – rhymes with porridge
• ”Esquimalt” – not pronounced like French ‘’esquimault’’ at all, and with a different etymology; pron. ‘’ess-KWY-malt’’.
• ’’T’wassen” or ’’Tawassen’’ – Tsawwassen. Nobody says it like that (tsa- or sa-), unless you’re maybe saying it in Halqemeylem, or unless you’re self-consciously proper about pronouncing it, or you’re new to the province.
• A “Chinook” in BC vs one in Alberta, i.e. when referring to a wind or weather pattern, is a warm ‘’wet’’ southwesterly, also called a Pineapple Express. Such winds, after they ‘’do’’ cross the Cordillara/Rockies, are the warm, dry “snow-eater” winds by which the term Chinook Wind is more better known. In BC Chinook is pronounced ‘’tshihnuk’’- whereas in AB and across Canada it’s a French-influenced ‘’shihnuk’’ (a prononciation almost never heard in BC except by someone newly arrived)
• Agassiz - Aga-SEE. This is the normal pronunciation but is unfamiliar to most Canadians unfamiliar with the name (originally Swiss?).

Feedback

Portage rhyming with porridge is not unknown elsewhere in Canada -- nobody, but nobody, ever pronounces the street in Winnipeg "Port-AHZH", frex. And nobody says "Port-AHZH la Prairie", either. In fact, outside of Quebec, portage almost always rhymes with porridge in a place name; it's usually only pronounced in the traditional French manner when it's used in the context of canoeing. And nobody pronounces Esquimalt as if they were speaking French...except maybe those whose first language is actually French. Minor local variants in pronunciation still don't define a distinct dialect. Bearcat 07:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The word list here was meant to refer to lexicon only, not "dialect", as explained above. Funny thing about Esquimalt is it has a large French population (because of the naval base) and even when speaking French those guys will say Esquimalt our way; at least with me they did. Particularly Quebecois manglings of BC placenames I've heard on trains and buses - Co-KEET-lam, Nana-EEmo; and widespread is VancouVAIR.

As for the portage thing, I lived in Whistler, which is chock-full of Ontarians (or was in the '80s) and would have them always try to correct me with Seton Portage (where I'm from) and tell me I was pronouncing it wrong; curiously the Quebeckers (Whistler was also chock-full of them) had no problem with the "porridge" prononciation and never presumed to lecture on it. But the Ontarian correctness thing was so pervasive it seemed a given that they must pronounced Portage La Prairie the French way (AFAIK even franco-manitobaines don't). Whatever; these were just peculiarities on the map, not meant to be dialect-proof.Skookum1 19:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I was born in soutwestern BC and I was raised calling Tsawassen "suh-WAH-sen." We used to joke it was the newbies who thought that the "T" was vocalized. Fishhead64 06:09, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Where in "soutwestern BC"? "SuWAHssen" always sounded pretentious to our ears, and we were from Mission (I was born in '55), and our Vancouver links were the East End (12th & Clark); it was always (for us) TaWAHssen; pronouncing it with the 's' (either as ts- or s-) sounded hoity-toity. Doubtless the Halqemeylem prononciation is more authentic, but not necessarily in English; and people I know who've lived in Tsawwassen said, as far as I can remember, TaWAHssen. The other pronunciation always seemed someone "trying to hard" to pronounce it "correctly". Similarly, though, "Shwartz Bay" is as common as Swartz Bay, although Islanders nearly always use the latter.Skookum1 07:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm from Victoria, so I can only go by what the folks in my Cedar Hill neighbourhood said. And they said "Suh-WAH-sen." Pronouncing the "T" always sounded uninformed to our ears. Same with "shwartz" (I always assumed it was a mistake made by tourists). So I guess that given our different experiences, I don't think it's something one can make generalities about. Both pronounciations are clearly acceptable in BC. Fishhead64 08:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Colloquial names for regions and towns (non-abbreviation, non-joke)

• "the Gulf of Georgia" - the Strait of Georgia and adjoining waterways, sort of; not an official name so included here; both names originate from pre-colonial mappings of the mainland in this region as "New Georgia" ("New Hanover" was farther NW). "The Straits" nearly always means the Georgia Strait.
• "the Big Smoke" - Vancouver's own, now Toronto's, apparently .
• "the Lake Country" - when used in a capital-letter sense this would mean the Shuswap Country rather than the Okanagan or the Arrow Lakes or Cariboo; esp in the phrase "Kamloops and the Lakes" (Kamloops being at the region's western edge); equally you'll hear, say in a weather forecast, "Kamloops and the Cariboo" as KL is at the southeastern corner of the Cariboo, though not generally considered part of it; occasionally a newbie newscaster “from somewhere else” will assume Kamloops is in the Okanagan – it’s not)
• ”the Peace”: – Fort St John and Dawson Creek and thereabouts; similarly each valley/region in BC tends to have a definite article; there are no counties here, i.e. “I’m going to Pembroke County” vs I’m going to “the Omineca”. BCers often associate/identify by regions as much as by towns, or groups of towns and the encompassing rural areas; the Bulkley, the Cariboo, the Canyon, the Chilcotin, the Nicola, the Similkameen, the Okanagan – the Okanagan-Similkameen or Nicola-Similkameen, the Kootenays (the East Kootenay and the West Kootenay) an the Boundary Country; the Columbia Valley (so put because of, well, all that other Columbia stuff), the Shuswap, and of course “the Island” (aka “the Big Island”, if you’re on one or asking someone to be specific) meaning Vancouver Island.
• ”the Boundary Country” – Rock Creek-Midway-Grand Forks-Christina Lake, often associated in combos like “Boundary-Similkameen” or “Okanagan-Boundary” (originally riding or R.D. names)
• ”the Lower Mainland” – Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley; one of BC’s three main regional subdivisions – thte Island (V.I.), the Interior and the Lower Mainland; the latter two collectively are simply “the Mainland”, especially when referred to by someone on “the Island”
• “the Valley” – technically means the entire Fraser Lowland south of the river and everything east from Coquitlam; in general Delta, Richmond and Poco (Port Coquitlam) are not included in common usage (they can be, though) and the meaning is more specifically Surrey-Langley-Abbotsford-Chilliwack, and more implying south and east Surrey than the infamous North. "Lower Fraser Valley" is from Mission-Abbotsford west to Richmond and Delta, often used to mean only Surrey-Langley-Abbotsford. "Upper Fraser Valley" is Chilliwack and Agassiz-Kent, plus up towards Hope (but no farther); "Central Fraser Valley" is Mission and Abbotsford only.
• ”the Shore”, i.e. the North Shore (North and West Van). People on the North Shore will refer to the City of Vancouver as "the city".
• ”the West End” – not to be confused with the West Side; although East End and East Side are roughly synonymous, except in the form Downtown East Side which refers to the hardest of the hard skids. Speaking of which “skids” is BC in origin (and half-Seattle, also; but many terms are shared in the PacNW), from “skid road”, a logging “road” built of log-corduroy which is what East Hastings St had been originally (and First Avenue in Seattle). “East Hastings” has a whole range of connotations in Vancouver, also, that are too lengthy to lay out here, something like “East Van” (see below)
• ”Kits” – Vancouver’s Kitsilano neighbourhood, aka "Skitz" (short for "schizoid/schizophrenic")
• "Prince" - Prince George
• "Rupert" - Prince Rupert
• ”Nordel” – North Delta; Surrey’s alter ego and un-evil twin (well, not exactly)
• ”The Fort” – Fort Langley
• “Ferndale” used like you’d say “Leavenworth” or “San Quentin”, though with less severity as the American usages are associated with; the Ferndale institutions in what had been rural Mission are minimum and medium – the minimum gets the media treatment as “the country club”, whereas “Matsqui” is the maximum, and “Agassiz” even worse than that. The “BC Pen” is long closed (now a cheesy and half-expensive real estate development with a nice view of the big bend in the Fraser north of “the Pattullo”; haunted land, though, they say…)
• ”the Island” – Vancouver Island, aka “the Big Island”
• ”the Peninsula” – the Saanich Peninsula, Victoria’s northern suburbs; also “the Eastern Communities”, which are Victoria’s eastern suburbs.
• ”the Charlottes” – the Queen Charlotte Islands aka Haida Gwaii
• "Up North" - in BC means Prince George-Omineca and beyond, usually the Peace River/Northeast Sector and the other territories or the far north of the province. Prince Rupert, on the other hand, comes under "North Coast", and along with it communities just inland like Terrace and Kitimat and also including the Queen Charlottes and the mainland/Inside Passage down as far as Dean Channel or so (wouldn't include Queen Charlotte Strait(here meaning the communities around it rather than the strait itself) For some reason people I know from Hazelton-Smithers don't say Up North or North Coast; they'll just name where they're from, usually by town or just by Bulkley Valley. But Vanderhoof, Fraser Lake etc which are farther southeast, are considered (by southerners) to be "up North". Of course, I've heard "Up North" mean Whistler when used by someone new to Vancouver's geographic context (the East begins at Hope, about 100km E of Vancouver, well, OK, at the Rockies, then, aka the Granite Curtain – another BC-specific term)
• "J.O.", "VanTech" and "Tupper" are abbrevations for Vancouver high schools and neighbourhoods: short for John Oliver, Vancouver Technical and Sir Charles Tupper, respectively.

Highway and Bridge Names

• ”the Sea to Sky” – Hwy 99 from Horseshoe Bay/West Vancouver to Pemberton via Whistler; of real estate/marketing coinage; formerly the Garibaldi corridor or Garibaldi highway. Also just called "99"
• ”the Upper Levels” – Hwy 1 through North and West Vancouver from the Second Narrows Bridge to the ferry terminal at Horseshoe Bay; so-called because this freeway (originally simply a new highway with traffic lights instead of interchanges) climbs steeply to the “upper levels” of North Vancouver, crossing the North Shore at a high elevation until it reaches the ferry terminal at Horseshoe Bay.
• "the Coke" - the Coquihalla Highway (No. 5 from Vancouver to Kamloops via Hope-Merritt). Many highways in BC are known by their designators:
• ”the Malahat” - the stretch of Hwy 1 from Langford/Goldstream to Duncan in the island
• "the Crowsnest" - Hwy 3 from Hope to Fernie
• "the Yellowhead" - Hwy 5 from Kamloops to the Yellowhead Pass. Also used to mean the region of the upper Fraser from McBride to Tete Jaune Cache.
• "the Lougheed" (Hwy 7 from Burnaby to Mission and beyond), Named for someone from the same family as the Alberta Tory Premier Peter Lougheed’s, but not pronounced the same way – ‘’Low-heed’’ in BC vs. ‘’law-heed’’ in AB.
• "the King George" or just "King George" - the King George Highway, aka Hwy 99A from White Rock via Whalley to the Port Mann Bridge
• “One” meaning Hwy 1 through the valley (we also use “401”, which we used before the large influx of Ontarians in recent times).
• "Ten" Highway 10 from Langley City to Ladner (56th Ave in Surrey and Delta)
• ”Lion's Gate” and “Second Narrows” – the two bridges across Burrard Inlet from Vancouver to the North Shore (North and West Van); we often will just say “you going Lion's Gate?” or “yeah, it was quick. I came Second Narrows”. Other bridges in the Lower Mainland are often shortened just to “the Port Mann”, "the Queensborough" “the Alex Fraser”, the “Arthur Laing”, "the Oak Street", "the Pattullo" etc.
• "the Connector" - depending on the context meaning either the Richmond Connector from the No. 5 Road interchange on Hwy 499 to the Alex Fraser Bridge, or the Okanagan Connector from Merritt to Summerland, hwsich is an extension/branch of the Coquihalla Highway

Imported Abominations

• Cottage Country – an Ontarian term originally meant to mean the Muskokas now impinging its way into BC usage as a synonym for the Cariboo Plateau, which is very far from the true English-style cottage country of the Saanich Peninsula. Formerly “cottage” in BC meant a specific style of small English-style dwelling, with only certain families referring to their “place” or “spread” as a “cottage”, and if they did so it implied a certain standard (or lack thereof) of building/accommodation. More common was “cabin”, i.e. “I’m going to the cabin on the weekend”. A cottage in an area more known for cabins, such as the Cariboo, might mean a more flimsily-built structure, less solid and reliable than a cabin, and probably not meant for wintering in.
• ’’Westcoast’’ – as an adjective; coined by imported media editors/marketing types looking for a catchy marketing tag for Vancouver, i.e. the new “branding”. Ultimately a term of Eastern Canadian perspective and incidentally overlooking the Interior.
• ”two-four” – never heard in BC until long after the advent of 24-pack cases of beer; imported from the East. Probably got imported because of Bob’n’Doug, along with “what a hoser, eh?”
• misprononciations of BC placenames, e.g. AbbotsFORD, DeaZe Lake vs Abbotsferd or Deese Lake, i.e. Dease Lake), Guildford with a ‘d’ (usually slurred ‘’Gilford’’)
• "the Fraser Valley" when used to refer to the Fraser Canyon or any area of the river's upper basin; in proper usage "the Fraser Valley" always means the Lower Mainland from Hope to Surrey/Delta.Skookum1 12:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Feedback (in summary)

Bottom line...none of this constitutes a unique British Columbia dialect; almost everything on here is either local slang (which is not the same thing as a distinct dialect), or far less unique to BC than you seem to think. Bearcat 07:47, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello ... agreed. As already discussed here in some detail, information in Wp regarding BC English must be cited and verifiable from authoritative sources, etc. There is, apparently, no body of literature that would support this currently. E Pluribus Anthony 06:31, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Makes me want to go do a linguistics degree....BTW there's no body of literature about a whole bunch of aspects of British Columbia culture/history, because no one studies it (modern BC historiography than First Nations stuff, or single-ethnic-related topics, or class warfare). There's an implicit bias in Canadian academia, partly the result of a bunch of presuppositions laid down about BC (and the West) which are taken as fact but in truth the academics/academic thinking have always been from Eastern Canada or imported from the US or Europe; the common attitude being that "BC has no history" and "BCers are just the same as other English Canadians". This is a wider topic than just the old regional identities and possible dialects and points up a flaw within Canadian cultural/heritage research/awareness; that it's so dominated by the CBC and the academic establishment that, if those two bodies decide something doesn't exist, it doesn't.

There was a public affairs program back in the '70s called People Talking Back, which CBC had aired when Trudeau threatened to cut off their funding for not having more public input. So CBC set up studios in each major city and had a country-wide televesion openline/hotline show, where all participants could talk to each other without being filtered by reporters, anchors, question-writers and editors. It's about a six-hour experience in total and the epitome of McLuhanite telecommunications-community; the conversation became very focussed and was partly summed up by someone in the Edmonton group - "we don't hear about colonization in our media because our medis is colonized". And he wasn't meaning colonization by the U.S (the program was so spellbinding that the government doubled the CBC's budget the next day and told them never to do it again). That fact is drilled home to me every time I see an essentially Toronto-local-news/views rag out here as a "national newspaper" (Post and Globe) or a new anchor shows up on one of the news shows who doesn't know how to pronounce local placenames or whose sound is distinctly "media English" (TO standard, plus some Standard American English actor-training). It's right in the CBC charter - "to prevent the growth of regional identities" - and they've been very effective at that. And that an academic can live in BC (or rather, live at UBC or SFU) and not pay attention to the regionalisms of a place like the Chilcotin or the Central Coast - not going there helps, of course - is a bit sad; Jean Barman, whose much-touted histories of BC get a lot of press, has egregious errors and misjudgements throughout her works, particularly The West Beyond The West. Reason? She's from ON and lives on Point Grey; 30 years later after arriving in BC and what she knows of the province is largely from papers written by other academics; and she's constantly looking for ways to disprove notions that BC is unique or distinct in any way, often "reaching" for evidence of Canadian-ness by stretching quotes outside how they were meant. And linguists in the small town are there to look for native languages; I don't even think the old Toi Shan/Vancouver-mutated dialect of Chinese has been studied/documented BTW....as noted in my other digression above, something already in the main article says that if there are any variants patterns of speech in the West they're "not identifiably Canadian". Yeah? So what are they, then?

This same kind of thing came up in Chinook studies; there's one stream of thought (mostly from British Columbians) that it was multicultural in character and that any which way you pronounce it is OK, and that non-native aspects of it deserve equal study. Then there's the orthodox Chinookologists, who want to ignore the way non-natives spoke it, or pronounce that they spoke it "wrong", and the focus is entirely on "official" Tshinuk Wawa from Oregon. As a result, linguists ignore the non-native traces and cultural aspect. Yet Chinook Jargon was considered as an official language of BC in the 1860s, its use was so widespread and so entrenched as part of daily life.

One other thing that I'll repeat before I leave off relates to the media/academic thing again and to the heavy British flavour of the province from the '60s and back. Barman and others throw up their hands in horror at the degree to which the Britons here retained their culture and accents, and how they preferred the Manchester and London and Edinburgh papers over Toronto's (who wouldn't?); the British legacy here is something the academics turn their nose up at, and is often brought up in discussions of BC history. The corollary is that the daily milieu here had a strong British presence; people who'd lived here for 30, 40, 50 years who spoke "softened" versions of Glaswegian, Geordie or whatever; or people with what I call an "Imperial" accent - someone who'd lived in Calcutta, Sydney, Singapore, Capetown and Jamaica before getting here, and whose accent was obviously British-imperial but not identifiable according to the usual molds found in British counties. The point? That academia can look something straight in the face and not give it fair value. Either BC had this large community of native-English Canadians who very pointedly didn't speak like people from Upper Canada is obvious; but it's viewed as "un-Canadian", something that had to be expunged.Skookum1 19:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello! Thanks for your response. In return: perhaps you should study this more and gather credible information to support your case. I don't want to rehash prior comments, and do not deny this is all informative: but without being able to credibly cite or verfiy any of this information (and there is little available), an article regarding it in Wp would be inappropriate, constitute original research, and would be ripe for annihilation. In the interim: solicit assistance, enhance your Wp user/talk page, and perhaps create a unique web page about this. Let me know if you've any questions or need help. Take care! E Pluribus Anthony 20:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

"Canadian" English in Point Roberts, Washington?

Many living in BC know about the town of Point Roberts, Washington, which is on a little tongue of land jutting south of the 49th Parallel from Tsawassen, BC. I have never been there, but I'm wondering if the English spoken there is more Canadian than American, since just by geography (surrounded on three sides by water and BC on the north) they would seem to be more culturally connected to Canada than the mainland US.--MarshallStack 06:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

About half of Point Roberts' permanent residents - or more - are Canadians, most of them "old stock" British Columbia (by which I mean it's not inundated by Eastern Canadians as certain Vancouver neighbourhoods are); and 80-90% of the bar customers are definitely Canadian. If someone was to hear a Canadian-style accent in Point Roberts most likely it's a Canadian. Despite their isolation and ongoing relationship with their neighbours, American Point Roberts folks sound pretty American; "sawry", and the drawled vowels and all that. Kids on the Point are bussed to the rest of Whatcom County daily and so are raised around other American kids (Whatcom County's accent isn't as Okie as other parts of WA, though, and most Whatcom County types interface with Greater Vancouver quite a bit). So I'd say no, the accent for some reason has stayed; I believe the same would also be true of Hyder AK, which is an isolated Alaskan town adjacent to Stewart, BC, at the head of the Portland Canal (which is the boundary in that area).Skookum1 02:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Toques and beanies

From the article: "Tuque: a thick winter hat that covers the head and ears (usually called a Beanie in American English; a beanie in Canadian English is a skull-cap, usually parti-coloured, with a little propellor on top)". This strikes me as odd, because a beanie to me is also a propeller skull cap. I would never ever call a thick woollen winter hat a beanie. (I was born in Mt. Vernon, WA, not all that far from Canada, and grew up in Seattle.) I have never heard of such hats being called a beanie. Generally we just call them a hat or a stocking-cap. (Sometimes we call them toques but we are usually being a bit jokey when we do so.) Are they really called beanies in other parts of the US? I am also a knitter, and I have never seen a knitting pattern for such a hat refer to it as a beanie. So are we just a bit Canadian here in western Washington, or is the article a bit off in this regard?

(Speaking of "a bit Canadian" -- I have noticed in the last decade or so that pronunciations I once thought of as Canadian seem to be spreading like wildfire in the Seattle area. I hear some Seattle natives saying "sohry" instead of "sahry", and I'm hearing more Canadian Raising than I used to, though not as strongly as I heard it when visiting rural Minnesota.) ManekiNeko | Talk 00:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Might be because they watch our cable TV; not to the same degree that we watch theirs, but...are you sure it's not Canadian shoppers you're hearing? Seattle's always been a bit different from the rest of the Northwest, even; same ethnic strata as Vancouver, sans the heavy Asian influence in Vancouver; but Scandinavian/Dixie-Okie/Standard Media Accent is shared between the two; somehow I always know when a broadcaster's voice is from "down there" or not. Typically we don't "hear" the Canadian raising we do anyway; so it's hard to hear in someone else.Skookum1 02:48, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Could be some exposure to Canadian TV/radio, I suppose, but we don't get very much of that in Seattle. (Bellingham, etc., is another story...) I know it's not Canadian shoppers because I'm hearing this in people I know to be Seattle natives. :) (An example is KIRO-AM talk show host Dori Monson, who grew up in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle, and says "sohry" very clearly.) It used to be that when you heard "sohry" you could assume the speaker was Canadian. That's no longer the case, though maybe it's just a fluke that I keep hearing these pronunciations that I never heard from non-Canadians when I was younger. It's not a full-fledged accent, though -- just certain Canadianisms that seem to be cropping up down here. I can still clearly hear the accent is different when I speak to someone from BC -- there's a lot more to it. Many people here do have the "writer/rider" vowel distinction, though. :) But I think it's far from universal. Anyway, I don't mean my original parenthetical comment to turn this into a discussion forum, so I guess I'd better get back to topic here!

Regarding my question about beanies, I asked a couple of friends and neither of them would call a winter hat a beanie either. I asked them to define "beanie" for me, and they both said "a propeller hat." :) I would change the reference in the article, but I guess I want to make sure that we aren't just weird up here in the Northwest -- I want to be sure others from the US find it wrong too. ManekiNeko | Talk 11:12, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

As I haven't found that "beanie" is a typical US use for those winter hats, and haven't seen any particular disagreement here, I went ahead and edited the page to say that in US English, such hats are called "ski hats" or "watch caps", etc. ManekiNeko | Talk 01:18, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see that someone else added "beanie" back to the page; I am OK with it being one of the options, not the American English version, because it certainly isn't common in the Pacific Northwest, but I did some more searching and found that some people do use it to mean a ski cap in the US. I guess it's just used in another part of the country. (Here in Seattle, a "beanie" is a little skull cap with a propeller...) So the way the entry is phrased now seems OK. -- ManekiNeko | Talk 06:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

IPA of "Vancouver" on city page

Copy-pasting my note from the Vancouver talk page here:

Vancouver (pronounced [væːnˈkʰuv̥ɚ])" - Oh, really? Whose dialect? What's the source on this; if it's the Dictionary of Canadian English it's not to be trusted as it assumes all anglo-Canadians speak like TO/CBC. I know a bit of IPA and "væːn-" doesn't look right, nor does -v̥ɚ, and if you'll looke at the Vankewver vs Vankoover section you'll see that -kʰu- maybe isn't quite right for the middle syllable either. There's no one standard way to pronounced Vancouver, in fact; I don't think the IPA should be here; unless someone wants to put in the way a native English speaker from Vancouver actually says it; not how it is in a Toronto-produced dictionary; but that would require admitting that there's a regional variation that linguistic orthodoxy says doesn't exist (or won't study).Skookum1 01:06, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I put in that pronunciation, because it is how I pronounce it, and I live on the west coast of B.C.  Denelson83  19:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Vocalic differentiation of Canadian English from American English

In the IPA chart for English article, I put in the vowels of Canadian English, but they got removed as unverified. I populated the Canadian English column with the vowels as I pronounced them, as I certainly do live in Canada. For instance, I pronounce "sun" with an [ɐ], and not an [ʌ], and I differentiate between the 'o' in "bond" and the 'aw' in "law" (which I pronounce as [ˈbɑnd] and [lɔː] respectively).

BTW, If anyone wants a source for the pronunciation of Canadian English vowels, I propose this link, although it uses [ʌ] as the vowel in "sun", and it merges the vowels in "bond" and "law".  Denelson83  20:02, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Another source for Canadian IPA is the guide at the bottom of every page in the Canadian Oxford Dictionary. They call it a "modified version" of IPA, without explaining what that means, so it may not be ideal for comparing to other English dialects. —Michael Z. 2005-12-6 05:41 Z

For reference, below is the Canadian Oxford's pronunciation guide. I'm guessing "modified" means it is a broad transcription, with simple symbols for the most common sounds. I think it's a good starting point, but doesn't have everything we need. For an international audience, I would replace /a/ with /æ/, /r/ with /ɹ/, possibly /oː/ with /oʊ/, and the diphthongs with ligatures (/tʃ/ with /ʧ/, /dʒ/ with /ʤ/). Caveat: I'm no expert. Are there any linguists who can shed some more light? It would be nice to construct some tables like the ones in International Phonetic Alphabet for English. —Michael Z. 2005-12-6 06:31 Z

Couple more links: [1] [2]. —Michael Z. 2005-12-6 06:59 Z

Vowels

• a cat
• ɑ arm
• e bed
• ɜr her
• ɜː deux
• ə ago
• ɪ sit
• i cosy
• iː feed
• ɒ hot
• ɔ pore
• oː no
• ʌ run
• ʊ put
• uː mood
• ai my
• əi pipe
• au brown
• ʌu house
• ei day
• ɔi boy
• ɑ̃ franglais
• ã Canadien
• ɔ̃ Brayon

Consonants

• b but
• d dog
• f few
• g get
• h her
• j yes
• k cat
• l leg
• m man
• n no
• p pen
• r red
• s sit
• t top
• v voice
• w we
• z zoo
• ʃ she
• ʒ vision
• θ thin
• ð this
• ŋ ring
• x loch
• tʃ chip
• dʒ jar

"Liberal" in Canada vis-a-vis the US

Yesterday's toppling of Paul Martin's Liberal minority government has brought to mind the vast difference in the way the term liberal is regarded in Canada and the US. In Canada, from what I have observed, "Liberal" is merely the name of a political party. Here in the US, it's become an epithet, especially since the 1980s/Reagan years. Very few people here in the US identify themselves as "liberal" (and to name a political party that would be political suicide here); the term "progressive" is preferred. Also, especially since the rise of right-wing talk radio, especially Rush Limbaugh, "liberal" has almost come to mean the same thing as "communist" did during the McCarthy era. I haven't noticed that in Canada, but you don't have someone like Limbaugh who broadcasts Republican Party propaganda from Newfoundland to BC like we do here. "Liberal" is very much a pejorative term here, while "conservative" has come to be regarded as almost the standard by what one's patriotism and/or Americanism is judged.--MarshallStack 06:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Liberal and liberal are different terms, of course. In general the negativity of the terms depends on the speaker, but there's certainly no concensus on the issue. I'm not sure that anyone uses liberal as an insult, while many people certainly might use Liberal as such. I don't really notice much - I myself am a card-carrying member of the Ontario Liberal Party - well actually, my card is at home. WilyD 19:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Note that in Australia the Liberal Party is the conservative party, while the party on the left side is the Australian Labour Party.

Yeah, I've also noticed this. When I mention to Americans that the party that governs my country is called the Liberal Party, they do a double take, and then they get even more confused when I mention that it's the centrist party (right of NDP and BQ, left of Tories). Here (in Boston), the lefties call themselves "progressive" and their opponents call them "bleeding-heart liberals." I don't remember the last time I heard the term "liberal" in the U.S. without "bleeding-heart." It's weird. I don't know if it belongs in the article. moink 20:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The Liberal Party is considered broadly centrist in Canada, and its name goes back to 1861; the New Democratic Party is at the more socialist end of the spectrum (I don't suppose many in the U.S. call themselves that). The political description "progressive" usually means socially progressive—I suspect it has different connotations in the U.S. To a Canadian like me, both the U.S. Republican and Democratic parties seem rather more conservative and right-wing than the Canadian Conservative party. Although the adjective liberal doesn't usually carry any negative connotations, conservative, or more specifically "small-c conservative", is sometimes used disparagingly by Canadians who consider themselves more liberal.

By the way, Canadians do sometimes watch Limbaugh, in my case for a laugh. —Michael Z. 2006-03-18 17:37 Z

Canadianism!

Hello! For those wishing to add Canadian words or other idiosyncracies in a dedicated article, I recently changed Canadianism redirect into an article. This can also serve as a subarticle for Canadian English, Culture of Canada, et al. Have at it! :) E Pluribus Anthony 05:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"Buddy" in Toronto

"Many Torontonians have also adopted the Newfoundland English convention of using buddy (without a capital) as equivalent to that man (I like buddy's car.)."

Living in Mississauga (a mere 20 minutes away), and attending university in Toronto, I must say I've never heard a single person utter the word "buddy" in that sense. Perhaps somebody could expand and localise this phenomenon to a specific region or provide clearer examples? Kareeser|^Talk! 15:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• I use the term, and grew up in East York and Scarborough - I have no idea about the spread though, I especially lack citable ideas about the widespreadness. WilyD 16:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• I hear it all the time. I heard Valerie Pringle use it on Canada AM (she grew up in Forest Hill. That's why I added the observation. It's certainly far more connected to reality than some of the other assertions about Canadian English made in the article (is "back bacon" really a Britishism? – in Britain it's called bacon). However, I would agree to removing all generalizations from the article that are not supported by linguistic research published in refereed journals. Linguistic research seems to miss many important phenomena but using it as a standard would remove the most questionable assertions (including, I suspect, some of mine). John FitzGerald 14:34, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
• I too have grown up in Mississauga and went to University in Toronto, and I've used and heard the term 'buddy' used in that way my whole life, I'm actually shocked that this is the first you've heard of it--Gibbay 01:17, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

dead give aways

dead give aways to whether a person is canadian is when they pronounce the words been and again. very different from americans.

Jack Layton's affectations in TV commercial

The current campaign commercial where you have JL speaking to the camera (not other one with the winter boot) he says "put some members in the parliament" and "do something about the corruption". Usual English: Put some members in Parliament, do something about corruption.

Is it only me this sounds stilted/over-written to? Using the article when not necessary is a trait of second-language speakers to me. Or is this normal in Ontarian English?Skookum1 20:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

The first is unusual. The second is reasonable to me, though – he's emphasizing he's talking about Liberal corruption rather than corruption in general. John FitzGerald 01:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

And then in last night's debate he asked people to vote for "the today's New Democrats." You could be onto something here. Perhaps it comes from growing up in Quebec – the articles would be idiomatic in French – but then his French isn't masterly. John FitzGerald 12:49, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering if it had something to do with his learning Chinese. Using an unasked-for article in English is more normal if the speaker comes from a language where the article is mandatory, as in Greek ("The Mike goes to the Vancouver", i.e. even personal names have articles), but I have heard it sometimes where someone coming from, or influenced by, a language which has NO articles, such as Chinese or the old Chinook Jargon hereabouts, tries to over-correct their English by adding articles where they're not needed. I've heard the extra-the thing in American hick-slang (trailer trash and Appalachia) but it just seemed really odd coming out of a native-speaker of English in Canada.Skookum1 19:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I can't speak to the commercials, but something he said in the debates? I'd just chalk that up to "thinking on his feet; started to say one thing and then backtracked" rather than treating it as an example of some strange unverifiable theory about his language skills. You know, like, how people sometimes, um, hem and haw and start to say one thing and then have to back up and rephrase it when they're speaking...er, when they're talking extemporaneously, eh? Bearcat 19:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

That thought occurred to me too, although he didn't hem and haw (I believe it was part of his final statement), and at the moment we don't have a lot of observations, one of which I think is normal. Anyway, we have established it's not regional Canadian usage. I will have my ears opne for further occurrences. John FitzGerald 00:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Drawls and diphthongs/CBC English

Or is it a diphthong, I'm not sure. I was watching the news last night and in two separate items, from two separate mouths, I heard -ood elongated subtly from a straight '-ud' to 'u-uud'. I don't have the IPA skills to record it properly here - it was like a doubling of the oo sound, and in the one case, the NDP candidate for British Columbia Southern Interior (where the young Tory who's in hospital is under charges for driving a Mercedes full of whiskey across the border...only in British Columbia, you say?). That's ranch/orcharding country with simultaneously deep American and British expat/remittance history behind it; and the interviewed individual was either in Keremeos, Oliver, Grand Forks or Osoyoos, the last two being so close to the border you can spit across it from the bar (less than a mile); i.e. the ongoing culture of ranchland-North America is part of daily life, and most people in that area probably have met more people from Spokane and Boise than they have from Toronto. But I guess, given the fact that any possible dialectical shifts in this area haven't been studied, then they don't actually exist (????). And that people whose accents are influenced by (gasp) American accents can't be considered to have Canadian accents....but I can't figure out why it is, then, that so many Ontarians sound like they're from Ohio, despite the aboot thing and hoser-lexicons.

Then there's CBC English, which does have a formal pronunciation stylebook and even used to be more British-flavoured. One thing I noticed last night was controver-see-al, as opposed to the usual Canglish controvershul and other over-controlled or forced syllables and consonantal distinctions. Sure, broadcast English requires different enunciation, but over-careful pronunciation is a class-ist sort of thing; they do it all the time it's just that I noticed controver-see-al last night.Skookum1 18:07, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

A problem of Canadian life is that many important phenomena just aren't studied. And if they're not studied formally and reviewed by linguists I don't see why they should be included in this article. It's a shame, but any alternative seems worse. As for Ohio English, it is considerably more nasal than Ontario English and, as you note, it doesn't feature Canadian raising and Ontario English does, which would seem to quaify Ontario English as Canadian. Ohioans also speak without the characteristic Canadian drone. And who said that "people whose accents are influenced by (gasp) American accents can't be considered to have Canadian accents"? All Canadian accents have been affected by American accents, I should think. All regional accents, period, I wouldn't be surprised to learn. Canadian and American accents are in fact "Canadian" and "American," anyway. The distribution of accents doesn't correspond very well to the border. In central and western Ontario, where I've spent most of my life, we're not always aware of that because upstate NY and MI speech are markedly different from ON speech. John FitzGerald 13:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Literal interpretation of long o

What does this mean: a more literal interpretation of long o sounds, such as in gone and fog? I don't think Torontonians say [gon] and [fog]. Maybe the contributer meant that they don't merge caught and cot. Indefatigable 16:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody else seems to understand it either, I'll just delete it. Indefatigable 22:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Anymore

Has anyone else come across a recent trend wherein the speaker uses the term anymore to mean now or nowadays? For example:

Most movies I see anymore are bad.

I have noticed it cropping up mostly in people from the Bancroft to Ottawa region, though oddly enough, I heard someone from Illinois use it the same way. --DarrenBaker 18:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think anyone from Wiscinsin or Minnesota would give it a moment's thought if they heard this. Like, if my girlfriend is complaining that I don't take her out enough, she might say "All we do anymore is sit around and watch movies." It sounds perfectly natural to me. More natural than saying "nowadays" or "these days" in fact. The example that you give does sound odd though, and I can't really say why.--Hraefen 18:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Bizarre. Truly bizarre. I guess it must be creeping its way in here from the Northern States. Strange how language evolves like that. I mean, how is anymore even a word?

I found a really interesting entry on this at dictionary.com:

Regional Note: In standard American English the word anymore is often found in negative sentences: They don't live here anymore. But anymore is widely

used in regional American English in positive sentences with the meaning “nowadays”: “We use a gas stove anymore” (Oklahoma informant in DARE). Its use, which appears to be spreading, is centered in the South Midland and Midwestern states, as well as in the Western states that received settlers from those areas. The earliest recorded examples

are from Northern Ireland, where the positive use of anymore still occurs.

Intriguing! --DarrenBaker 19:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

• That example (We use a gas stove anymore) is bizarre to me as well and I've never heard that in MN or WI. Now that I think about it, the seemingly non-negative constructions that I'm used to hearing and saying (like "All we do anymore is sit around and watch movies.") all deal with some kind of perceived change from one habit/practice to another (somehow invloving loss of something) i.e. we used to go out and now there is a "lack-of-going-outness." This is a thoroughly unacademic way of putting it, but I've only just become aware that this is a regional usage. It's also common in questions (Do you do that anymore? = Do you still do that?). I'll have to look at my Dictionary of American Regional English when I get home.--Hraefen 20:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not a recent Canadian usage. I've been using it since at least the 1960s, when I lived in Western Ontario. Although I suppose I could have been the only person using it. John FitzGerald 04:01, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Place of articulation of l?

OK, so I'm not really a phonologist/phonetician, but ever since I took those classes I've been ridiculously aware of quirks in pronunciation. So here's something I've noticed: I'm a native English speaker from Ottawa, and it seems to me that my phonemic place of articulation for /l/ is dental. Not interdental like US theta, but dental, behind the teeth, like Canadian theta. Anybody else want to watch out for this in their own or someone else's speech? Please note, I really, really do not mean Alveolar; I mean using the blade of the tongue against my teeth. It seems like it's everywhere except for after (palato-)alveolar obstruents.--TheLurker 06:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)