Talk:CMLL World Lightweight Championship/GA2

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Reassessment

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Reviewers at the nominator's recent FACs were unable to verify that the text was supported by the offline sources, or even in a few cases that the sources exist as written. Therefore, parts of the article fail WP:V and point 2 of the GA criteria: "Verifiable with no original research". Per WP:BURDEN: "The burden of demonstrating verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material ..."

Checking these has been extremely time-consuming because the nominator has not been available consistently. It would therefore be better to delist this article, and the nominator can renominate when he's ready to help with verification. Also, the citations should be rewritten so that they're clear and consistent. The sources in question are as follows (written as they appear in this version of 27 May 2017):

1. Duncan, Royal; Will, Gary (2000). "Japan: CMLL Japan Super Lightweight Title". Wrestling title histories: professional wrestling champions around the world from the 19th century to the present. Pennsylvania: Archeus Communications. p. 388. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.#Wrestling Title histories p. 388
2. Wrestling Title histories p. 388 "Masato Yakushiji 1999/02/27 Nagoya, JPN Defeats Rencor Latino to become first champion."
3. Wrestling Title historiesp 388 chapter name "CMLL Japan Super Lightweight Championship"
4. Yniesta Canales, Enrique, ed. (January 9, 2001). "2000 Especial!". Box y Lucha Magazine (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresora y Encuaderanadora Glem SA de CV. pp. 10–12. ISSN 2007-0896. issue 2488.
5. Súper Luchas staff (January 24, 2005). Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. "Número Especial – Lo mejor de la lucha libre mexicana durante el 2004". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. pp. 3–5. 91.
6. Wrestling Title histories p. 388 "Virus 1999/11/25 Tokyo, JPN"
7. Yniesta Canales, Enrique, ed. (January 9, 2001). "2000 Especial!". Box y Lucha Magazine (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresora y Encuaderanadora Glem SA de CV. pp. 10–12. ISSN 2007-0896. issue 2488.
8. Súper Luchas staff (January 24, 2005). Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. "Número Especial – Lo mejor de la lucha libre mexicana durante el 2004". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. pp. 3–5. 91.
9. Hornbaker, Tim (2016). "Statistical notes". Legends of Pro Wrestling - 150 years of headlocks, body slams, and piledrivers (Revised ed.). New York, New York: Sports Publishing. p. 550. ISBN 978-1-61321-808-2.
10. Madigan, Dan (2007). ""El Médico Asasino". Mondo Lucha a Go Go: the bizarre & honorable world of wild Mexican wrestling. New York, New York: HarperColins Publisher. p. 115. ISBN 978-0-06-085583-3.
11. Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. (January 8, 2010). "Lo Mejor de la Lucha Libre Mexicana 2009". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. 348.
12. Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. (January 13, 2012). "Número Especial - Lo mejor de la Lucha Libre Mexicana durante el 2011". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. ISSN 1665-8876. 450.
13. Royal Duncan and Gary Will (2000). "Mexico: CMLL Titles [Lutteroth]". Wrestling Title Histories. Archeus Communications. pp. 389–401. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.
14. Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. (January 3, 2006). "2005 Lo Mejor de la Lucha Mexicana". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. p. 9. 14.
15. Súper Luchas staff (December 23, 2006). Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. "Lo Mejor de la Lucha Libre Mexicana duranted el 2006". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. pp. 3–6. 192.
16. Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. (December 26, 2007). "2007 Lo Mejor de la Lucha Mexicana". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. p. 7. issue 244. "Campeonato Mindual de peso Super Ligero de CMLL: ¿Existe aún? / CMLL World Super Lightweight Championship: Does it still exist?
17. Ocampo, Ernesto, ed. (January 6, 2009). "Lo Mejor de la Lucha Libre Mexicana 2008". Súper Luchas (in Spanish). Mexico City, Mexico: Impresos Camsam, SA de CV. p. 6. 296

SarahSV ^(talk) 04:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• Pinging the nominator, GAN reviewer, and a few others involved in the recent nominations: @MPJ-DK, MWright96, Siuenti, and Tisquesusa:, @Sarastro1, Ian Rose, Victoriaearle, Giants2008, and Juhachi: SarahSV ^(talk) 04:49, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I would like to take this weekend to try and clear up some confusion and find replacement, online sources for everything that I can - if by Monday morning this is not 110% addressed I'll voluntarily withdraw it from GA status.  MPJ-DK  12:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm looking at items 1, 2, 3 and 6 - the Wrestling Title histories book. I put the long citation of the book as a general note at the top (#1) and then 2, 3 and 6 provides a specific quote or explanation - listing the date of the first win and who he defeated (#2), the name of the championship by stating the name of the chapter it appeared under (#3) and date and location that Virus won he championship. This is the first time I've tried to do sources this way - would it be better with the long cite each time with a different quote in each? I thought that format was okay for those?  MPJ-DK  12:41, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
• #12 - I am trying to show that CMLL did not have a "Super Lightweight" division prior by listing the chapter names that cover CMLL championships - trying to prove the "non-existence" in CMLL.  MPJ-DK  12:41, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi MPJ-DK, much of the article is unverifiable when it comes to the print sources, and whether the text based on online sources can be verified also isn't clear, e.g. [1] Delisting and working on it at your leisure is a solution to the problem we discussed elsewhere. It isn't fair to ask the same people to spend more time on it at this point. When you renominate (if you decide to do that), the GA reviewer can check the new sources you've added. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

SlimVirgin I apologize, I did not realize it was inappropriate to ask for clarification on the formatting of a source you said was confusing. I will put my efforts into the article work.  MPJ-DK  20:38, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Consistent source formatting is an issue for FA, but not GA. But citations that are not clearly formatted are harder to review, so it's worth taking time to fix them. There are many ways to do it. One way is to write, on first reference:

Duncan, Royal; Will, Gary (2000). Wrestling Title Histories. Waterloo, ON: Archeus Communications, p. 388. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4.

And thereafter: Duncan and Will (2000), p. 388: "Quotation".

Instead you've written it out in full several times in your other articles, and in this one twice in full and twice as a short ref but differently formatted. Also, Pennsylvania is just the university that Google obtained this from when they digitized it.

The above assumes that Duncan and Will are the authors and not the editors. The WorldCat page says they are the editors. Can you clarify? SarahSV ^(talk) 21:17, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

They are listed as the authors on the cover of the book as can be seen on Google books worldcat page - I will get consistency for this article figured out and apply the same approach to other articles where I've used the citation to make it consistent across artices. Thank you for your input, it is truely apprecited.  MPJ-DK  21:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

The WorldCat page says they are the editors if you scroll down. Does the book contain individual chapters/entries/essays attributed to other authors? Or is everything attributed to Duncan and Will? SarahSV ^(talk) 22:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

They are the only authors, they did the research and cited a number of sources they based the chapters on but the book is all their work.  MPJ-DK  22:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Break

What is needed is pinpoint citation: if the article says X, we need a link, page number or small page range that shows a reliable source saying X, or saying something that led you to understand X.

Looking at your latest edits, that's not what you're doing. For example, these sentences:

In 1999 CMLL began to tour Japan, promoting a series of wrestling shows under the name "CMLL Japan". The shows featured a mixture of CMLL and Japanese wrestlers. On February 27, 1999, CMLL held a one-night tournament to determine who would be the inagual CMLL Japan Super Lightweight Champion, marking the first time in the history of CMLL that they used a championship specifically for that weight class.

are sourced to 12 pages (citation 18):

Duncan and Will (2000), pp. 389-401: Chapters on CMLL Championships include NWA World Light Heavyweight Title, NWA World Middleweight Title, NWA World Welterweight Title, CMLL World Heavyweight Title, CMLL World LIght Heavyweight Title, CMLL World Middleweight Title, CMLL World Welterweight Title, CMLL Women's World Title, CMLL World Mini-Estrella Title, CMLL World Tag Team Title, CMLL World Trios Title, Mexican National Light Heavyweight Title, Mexican National Lightweight Title, Mexican National Welteweight Title, Mexican National Women's Title, Mexican National Trios Title, Arena Coliseo Tag Team Championship

and a footnote (note 2):

"Wrestling Title Histories" documents that by 2000 CMLL had never used a championship for the "Super Lightweight" division, they had previously, or were at the time promoting championships for the following weight classes: Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight and Welterweight.

Looking at one element, which page of Duncan and Will (2000) supports: "On February 27, 1999, CMLL held a one-night tournament to determine who would be the inagual CMLL Japan Super Lightweight Champion"?

SarahSV ^(talk) 22:47, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, typo in inaugural. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:09, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion

Which style you choose it up to you, but an easy way to add quotations to footnotes is to use {{efn}}. Using that means your list of sources won't look so cluttered. For example:

"The tournament finale saw the Japanese Masato Yakushiji defeat CMLL wrestler Rencor Latino to become the first champion."

==Notes==

==References==

You add {{notelist}} to a "Notes" section at the end, and it will generate the footnotes. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

• Interesting, I have not seen that in use before but I like the formatting, thank you for being so helpful.  MPJ-DK  00:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
  • So work in progress, I took a couple of the quotes and all the previous "notes" and merged the format. I will reconfigure the other sources to work in the same way with the "quote" portion in the notes section.  MPJ-DK  01:05, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
  • If I am not mistaken I would need to provide the source quotes in an "efn" when the source is either 1) Printed or 2) not in English (original and English language version)? If that's the case I will go through each print/foreign language source and convert them as I work through each source and citation.  MPJ-DK  01:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Another suggestion

If you want to get fancier, you can combine {{sfn}} for short refs with {{efn}} for quotations.

For example:

"Date established: February 27, 1999"

==Notes==

==References==

==Works cited==

Note: Books are cited in short form in the References section and in long form here. All other sources are cited in the References section only.

• Duncan, Royal; Will, Gary (2000). Wrestling Title Histories: Professional Wrestling Champions Around the World from the 19th Century to the Present. Waterloo, ON: Archeus Communications. ISBN 0-9698161-5-4. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

This gives you a clickable short ref that takes you to the long one. The note about books being cited in long and short form isn't necessary. You can skip that part. (Of course you can skip it all; these are suggestions only.) SarahSV ^(talk) 01:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• • man I am learning all sorts of new stuff tonight, I feel like I should pay tuition. I do like the clickable aspects of the {{sfn}} option. I'll probably work that into it as well, since there are only 4 book sources that would not be that hard to do.  MPJ-DK  01:47, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm by no means an expert on the templates, so don't feel you have to follow these suggestions. There may be better ways to do it, and doing it manually is fine too. The one big advantage of {{sfn}} is the clickable short refs. That does make things easier for readers/reviewers. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Sourcing issues

Looking over the list I believe I have addressed the issues listed above

1. Book sources reconfigured to be consistent - a "long cite" in the ref section and "short cites" used in the actual text
2. Quoted foreign language sources in the "notes" section alongside translations for easier verification
3. Replaced any print source that would be next to impossible to verify unless you happen to have a specific magazine with online sources that anyone can verify against if they so desire.

• Thank you SlimVirgin - I know you've gone out of your way to help me out here and it is very much appreciated. Does the sourcing now meet the WP:V level needed?  MPJ-DK  10:35, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

MPJ-DK, I'm sorry but I've delisted this. It wouldn't have been promoted if the reviewer had known about the sourcing issues, and it needs a detailed review for GA from someone willing to check every source carefully. Ideally the reviewer won't be involved in the WikiCup, because that can lead to rushed reviews.

My concern is that you've removed sources and slotted others in without text changes. Also, some of the footnotes don't help; e.g. how does note h support the content that relies on it? And the Google Translate English is poor in places; that needs to be fixed in a way that doesn't change the meaning, and there's no need to copy-paste translations that aren't relevant to the content. Your other FAs, FLs and GAs need to be fixed too.

Well a lot of the content is purely factual "this happened on that day" etc. not something that's uniquely covered in one solitary source, but mentioned in various places, I previously simply chose a different source for it originally, instead of listing multiple sources for non-contentious facts so since the sources covers the same facts I saw no need to change the text. And I will make some adjustments to the translations without changing the meaning, trying not to put my interpretation into it. MPJ-DK  07:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

As for the footnote - I am trying to prove a negative, that CMLL had not used a "Super Lightweight" championship prior to 1999. The book has chapters on each and every CMLL championship promoted at that time (in 2000) so by showing that there were no other "Super Lighweight championships" I'm sourcing the claim. The other option is to put a citation for each chapter instead of a note recapping the chapters, not sure if that's better or not though.  MPJ-DK  08:05, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

How does the list of chapters relate to the source: Duncan & Will 2000, pp. 389-401? And can you look for a source that says the Super Lightweight championship began in 1999? SarahSV ^(talk) 15:24, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

In your shoes, I would take time to fix this article up so that there's a high degree of precision in terms of the text-source relationship, then I'd use it as the model for fixing up the others. If there's too much text for the footnotes, you can open a talk subpage and list the translations there. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Do you have an example of this (the subpage)? I must admit I am having a hard time picturing how that would actually be done??  MPJ-DK  07:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

MPJ-DK, as I suggested during the FAC, if you have a lot of quotations, you could create Talk:CMLL World Lightweight Championship/Sources for reviewers and list the translations there instead of here. If I were in your shoes, and if the Notes section got too long, I would offer the English on this page, and the Spanish and English quotes on a subpage that I could show reviewers. But it's up to you; if you want to add it all to the article, that's okay.

Also, the English grammer and spelling of the Google Translate pages need to be fixed, but you shouldn't change what they say.

I'll double check the translations - in some cases I translated the terms to what would be proper in English since we would not call champions "monarchs" etc. I'll double check the pared down quotes to ensure accuracy.  MPJ-DK  15:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Can you address the other issue below about the correct page range of Mondo Lucha a Go Go? SarahSV ^(talk) 15:24, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

WOrking on it, it'll be fixed in the article today.  MPJ-DK  15:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Minor point, MJP, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't split my posts. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Duely noted.  MPJ-DK  16:01, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Not just this one

It's not just this particular "Featured Article Candidate" there's a whole walled garden of these things dependent on unavailable sources, which even if they are available are probably just repeating this fictional "competition" as fact, i.e. failing independence and WP:NOT fiction. My feeling is they should all be deleted or redirected to one top-level article, which presumably has notability. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 11:01, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• I'm sure you meant wikipedia:walled garden instead of suggesting that they are a patch of land with vegetation surrounded by a wall right? I guess if your definition is "interlinked mainly between lucha libre related articles" (including bios, tournament, shows etc.) then yes it's a walled garden of hundreds of articles, the same way battleships generally are only linked to from military articles would be a walled garden. It's a specialized topic, there is quite a difference. MPJ-DK  14:23, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

  Indeed, as you very astutely deduced, what I meant was " there's a whole WP:walled garden of these things dependent on unavailable sources, which even if they are available are probably just repeating this fictional "competition" as fact, i.e. failing independence and WP:NOT fiction. My feeling is they should all be deleted or redirected to one top-level article, which presumably has notability". Any thoughts? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 13:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  Beyond disagreeing with everything you've just restated?  MPJ-DK  13:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  The reasoning behind that disagreement would be nice to hear. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 14:26, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  That is why I stated the reason why above already.  MPJ-DK  15:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  Oops fair enough, sorry my eyes glazed over when you started quibbling about definitions. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 16:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  However, I'm not sure your reply covered " things dependent on unavailable sources, which even if they are available are probably just repeating this fictional "competition" as fact, i.e. failing independence and WP:NOT fiction. " Siuenti (씨유엔티) 16:09, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  I don't need to cover that, all sources are either online or limited to a couple of books that are all available through public libraries if need be.  MPJ-DK  16:25, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  For example " "Lo Mejor de la Lucha Libre Mexicana 2008". SuperLuchas (in Spanish). January 6, 2008. 296. Retrieved July 11, 2009." ? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 16:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  On that's easy enough, that's not used as a source in the article.  MPJ-DK  16:49, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  Which article? Siuenti (씨유엔티) 17:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• Okay at this point I'm just going to stop responding to you and do some wiki work if you cannot even figure out what article I am talking about on the reassessent page for that article. I'm going to do something constructive and positive for the article quality instead.  MPJ-DK  17:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

  So it appears that the rest of this "garden" is full of unavailable sources, which even if they are available are probably just repeating this fictional "competition" as fact, i.e. failing independence and WP:NOT fiction. " and if I have time I'll try and clean some of this garbage up. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 17:40, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Looking elsewhere

MPJ-DK, looking at CMLL World Welterweight Championship, I see some of the same issues, though perhaps not so bad.

For example, this sentence:

While the heavyweight championship is traditionally considered the most prestigious weight division in professional wrestling, CMLL places more emphasis on the lower weight divisions.

is sourced to:

Madigan, Dan (2007). ""Okay... what is Lucha Libre?" and "El Médico Asasino"". Mondo Lucha a Go Go: the bizarre & honorable world of wild Mexican wrestling. HarperColins Publisher. pp. 29–40 and 114–118.

Those are two large page ranges—11 pages and 4 pages—to support just one sentence, and the same source and page range is cited in c. 49 articles.

What page (or page range) of Madigan (2007) is the source for that sentence? SarahSV ^(talk) 04:50, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• @SlimVirgin: can you look at CMLL World Heavyweight Championship too, I hope an actual featured article has better sourcing. Siuenti (씨유엔티) 14:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.