Talk:British Rail Class 405

Traction motors

The change from 275 hp to 250 hp traction motors was made possible by improvements in traction motor design. The early motors were totally enclosed and cooled by radiation from the casing. Later motors were fan-cooled and had a large overload capacity, enabling the new 250 hp motors to deliver the same acceleration as the old 275 hp ones. Biscuittin (talk) 16:00, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

`3-Sub' =

I have heard & seen published in an Enthusiast Group newsletter that the term 3-sub was not actually used and that the units were termed "3's". can this be substantiated from `reliable sources'? Barney Bruchstein (talk) 18:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't find any reference to the designation in the text of G.T. Moody, Southern Electric 1909-1968, (Ian Allan, 1968) but in the captions to the photographs he refers to '3-SUB' for 3-car units built from LSWR, LBSCR and SECR stock. See the 3 photos on page 12.

--Das48 (talk) 20:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The ABC of Southern Electrics (Ian Allan, 1943) describes the 3-car units only as '3-Car Suburban Sets', whereas for the mainline stock and the new-build 4-car suburban sets it also mentions the three letter indicator (Nol, Bil, Hal, Pan, Sub etc), so you may be right.

--Das48 (talk) 14:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I have examined p.12 of the second edition of Moody:

• Moody, G.T. (1958) [1957]. Southern Electric (2nd ed.). Hampton Court: Ian Allan. 786/262/100/558. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)

and it does not state '3-SUB', or anything remotely similar. The captions state (i) 'A "1285" class three-coach set built in 1925 ...'; (ii) '... the 1925 Western section stock ...'; and (iii) 'The "1496" class sets built in 1925 ... the "1285" class ...'. In the main text, when referring to pre-war suburban units, they are not given codes, but are shown as 'three-coach motor units' (Moody 1958, pp. 87, 88 etc.) or 'three-coach set' (Moody 1958, p. 104), with other types being referred to explicitly by codes such as 'sets of "2 NOL" type'; 'worked by "4 LAV" and "2 NOL" sets' (Moody 1958, p. 104), etc. Interestingly, Moody doesn't use the term "4 SUB" for the new units built from 1941 - he calls them 'the "4101" class' (Moody 1958, pp. 135, 136); similarly, he doesn't use "4 EPB" for those of 1951, which are referred to as 'the "5001" class' (Moody 1958, p. 157).

A much more comprehensive book is the two-volume set by David Brown, of which the first volume is directly relevant:

• Brown, David (2009). Southern Electric - A New History: Volume One - Development of the London Suburban Network and its Trains. Capital Transport. ISBN 978 1 85414 330 3. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

which states that 'before 1932 all SR dc electric rolling stock was suburban and there was no requirement to differentiate between the various varieties ... Carriage Working notices simply referred to electric stock by the number of vehicles in the train ...'. When later describing the introduction of codes for main-line stock, there is the explicit statement 'The codes were not given to suburban stock until the introduction of four-car suburban units. Although some unofficial publications described three-coach suburban units as '3 SUB', they were in error and this code was never used officially.' (Brown 2009, p. 82) also 'the three-coach suburban units were not given any special class designation, being indicated on working notices simply as 3, 6, 8 or 9 (depending on the number of units coupled in the train) ... the standard suburban units remained just 3 until their 'augmentation' into four coaches commenced in 1942, after which the lengthened units became 4 SUB.' (Brown 2009, p. 115) --Redrose64 (talk) 14:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

Suggest merging SR Class 4Sub into this article, appears to be the same rolling stock, arbitrarily split when renumbered for TOPS. Boolynfo (talk) 01:28, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

It's not the same at all. The Class 405 article covers those units with steel bodywork 9′0″ wide built from 1941 onwards, seating six across in compartments or 3+2 in open saloons. The 4Sub article covers those units with all-wood or wood-framed steel-panelled bodywork 8′6″ wide, built or converted no later than 1938, seating five across in compartments, built as 2- or 3-car units and reformed as 4-car units from 1942 onwards. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Closed, given the uncontested objection and no support. Klbrain (talk) 16:31, 26 June 2021 (UTC)