Talk:British Horseracing Hall of Fame

Hall of Fame?

I could not find any evidence that Britain has a Racing Hall of Fame awards system based on the merits of performances as found in other countries. The museum site referenced seems to be a semi-commercial site that is selling images of the individuals listed. Comments? Cgoodwin (talk) 02:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This appears to be another unreliable site. See the image depicted supposedly of Gainsborough who had a white pastern and not a white fetlock as in the Archives site! Cgoodwin (talk) 06:53, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed, this not Racing Hall of Fame as such and it is misleading to call it that!Cgoodwin (talk) 05:26, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

semi-commercial? Confirmed? Please provide the authoritative source as required by Wikipedia policy. Handicapper (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Sourced facts: The National Horseracing Museum at 99 High Street, Newmarket, Suffolk, United Kingdom is open to the public. It is in fact a United Kingdom Registered Charity No. 283656 [1] and is supported by the Jockey Club and the The Racing Post plus major national corporations such as Barclays Bank, Ladbrokes, SAAB, and Homebase who not only sponsor the Museum but sponsor Thoroughbred racing events. A full list of sponsors can be seen at the Museum. [2]

In fact, the Hall of Fame officialy exists as part of the National Horseracing Museum which can be visited, and on its website for example, states that "Blandford rests in Racing's Hall of Fame" [3] and another time the Museum refers to Athasi in her bio as "Athansi takes her place in this hall of fame" [4]

For information: Contact Education and Outreach Officer via telephone at 01638 667333 ext 8 or email education@nhrm.co.uk Handicapper (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I acknowledge that there is a museum. Previously I contacted the museum and it was stated by Alan Grundy that "There is no formal Hall of Fame in the UK." This a museum with an archive of of glass negatives, from which it sells prints. Some of these prints do not actually depict the horses named. Some of the archived horses have only won 1 minor race and not produced anything of note.Cgoodwin (talk) 22:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Outside Opinion - In this case, I would agree with Cgoodwin. While the National Horseracing Museum does exist (I don't think anyone is disputing this), the British Horseracing Hall of Fame does not seem to. However, the Museum itself does not say anything about a Hall of Fame actually existing, and just because all of the horses are included in the Museum's archives does not mean that they are included in a Hall of Fame, even if it does exist. This is simply an archive of horses that the Museum is selling pictures of, not a listing of the greatest horses in British horseracing, which is what a Hall of Fame would be. Just because a couple of horses' profiles mention a hall of fame doesn't mean that one actually exists - it is quite possible that some staff intern was simply feeling verbose. Handicapper, can you provide any sources stating that the Hall of Fame exists in anything other than random mentions on a couple of low-grade racehorses' profile pages on a semi-commercial website? Dana boomer (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Another opinion: I must agree here. This article appears to merely be a list. The source identifies itself as an "archive." There is no evidence of the criterion used to place horses on this list, and the site itself is a museum. I believe to call it a "hall of fame" is actually OR. I think the article needs to be deleted or merged, actually, and I will tag accordingly. Montanabw^(talk) 04:52, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Response to opinions

First, I proved a verifiable source for the very precise statement that this is an archive of British Hall of Fame members. Nothing could be more clear than the National Horseracing Museum's own website's precise statement that "Blandford rests in Racing's Hall of Fame" [5]. Conversely, the issue here was raised by someone who, regretfully, used unsubstantiated claims and who has a history of inserting their own opinions and formatting while refusing to cooperate with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing and who, even on this page, refuses to give a source when asked while continuing to assert their unfounded opinions. None of those who subsequently commented have done anything but give their own Point of View. Facts, reliable and documentable ones, are required by Wikipedia policy, not someone's POV.

None of the Horse Racing Halls of Fame in the world provide any criterion for their selections and each does their choices quite differently. Too, selling photos is a way to raise money to support a charity or non-profit organization. There is no horse racing authority that operates the British Horse Racing Museum charity but it has the support and full cooperation of the Jockey Club. That's all that is needed for legitimacy but it also has the support and cooperation of the Racing Post which is used in hundreds of references in Wikipedia. And, the British operation was constituted in the same manner as the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in the U.S. which was founded as a Museum only and as a non-profit organization by C.V. Whitney and friends and which also sells memorabilia including non-copyright and/or licensed photos to its visitors. Several years after the U.S. museum's founding, it added a Hall of Fame and decided to change its name. The Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame is owned and operated by a private for-profit corporation: Woodbine Entertainment Group who owns and operates Woodbine Racetrack where the Hall of Fame is located. Open to the public, it also sells memorabilia and photos. Like the British Museum, but unlike the U.S. one, the Canadian Hall of Fame lists breeders/owners/developers and includes the contribution to the sport by broodmares such as Natalma, who, like Britain's Hall of Fame mare, Athansi, never did much on the racetrack but was an outstanding and influential broodmare. The British Hall of Fame provides a profile on a horse, jockey, trainer, etc. for a variety of reasons which may include a single performance or a single year by a horse. The U.S. Hall of Fame is limited to a career record. The French Horse Racing Hall of Fame is restricted to a handful of horses and nothing else.

Dana Boomer --- you are wrong when you say "not a listing of the greatest horses in British horseracing, which is what a Hall of Fame would be." – No, as stated already, every Hall of Fame sets their own standards and parameters for inclusion. AND your statement that "anything other than random mentions on "a couple of low-grade racehorses'" profile pages on a "semi-commercial website" is an arrogant discourtesy to the Museum and its industry sponsors and to my contributions as a member of the WikiProject Thoroughbred racing because your statement is utterly false and absurd and clearly demonstrates a lack of knowledge of Thoroughbred horse racing and an unwillingness to even check readily available sources before commenting in such a manner. In fact, rather than being the "low-grade racehorse" you assert he was, Blandford is one of the most important sires in the history of Thoroughbred racing, worldwide. He was the three-time Leading sire in Great Britain and Ireland (1934, 1935, 1938) who sired four Epsom Derby winners including:

• 1935 Triple Crown winner, Bahram
• 1930 Derby winner Blenheim II who was also the Leading sire in North America in 1941, damsire of Nasrullah, and the great-great-grandsire of the legendary Secretariat
• Brantôme - the great French runner and Rothschild mainstay sire
• Midstream - two-time Leading sire in Australia

As to your assertion that Athasi was a "low-grade racehorse," it too is wrong. Her inclusion is on the same basis as that the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame used for Natalma. This is what the British Museum says about her: "Athasi takes her place in this hall of fame not for her race record (which was adequate - 5 races and third in the Irish Cesarewitch) but for her remarkable record as a broodmare. She produced 14 foals, ten of them winners, including Trigo, who took the Epsom Derby and St Leger, and Harinero and Primero, successful in the Irish equivalents." --- Athansi, for whom the Athasi Stakes is named, also produced Harina who was the dam of Neocracy, the dam of Epsom Derby and St. Leger Stakes winner Tulyar and of Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe winner, Saint Crespin.

And you further stated about the Musem's Hall of Fame references that: "it is quite possible that some staff intern was simply feeling verbose." – If you had checked, you would see that the Museum hired knowledgable people from the industry to write these profiles, not "some staff intern." And, belittling an employee, without fact or foundation, by snidely referring to them as "some staff intern," is inappropriate. The problem of course, Ms. Dana Boomer, is that others come along and read your unfounded "opinions" and, assuming good faith, go along with them without benefit of a Wikipedia-required verifiable and reliable source.

- Handicapper (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Handicapper, you have yet to provide a source that specifically states there is a British horseracing hall of fame. The Canadian one has an entire website devoted to it; the American one has a page that gives its mission and goals. I have yet to see anything like this for the British one. "Hall of fame" can be used as a generic statement, or the biographies of these two race horses could be referring to a different Hall of Fame. Where is there reliable, third-party sources stating that this purported "Hall of Fame" actually exists? None of us doubt that the Museum exists. Selling prints makes it semi-commercial - it is looking to make money through selling these, no matter what the end destination of the money (a non-profit's bank account or a private individual's pockey). Also, I looked at the website, and I see nothing that states who wrote these horse bios, which means it could quite rightly be a staff intern. Honestly, think about it - museums don't hire people to write horse biographies - they use volunteers and interns, who are much cheaper and easier on a non-profits budget. Please show me something other than these two horses' biographies that proves that a British horse racing hall of fame exists. I would especially like to point out Cgoodwin's statement above that he has been in contact with members of the museum who specifically state that such a hall does not exist. Dana boomer (talk) 18:54, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Another TB Racing Hall of Fame in Britain? Where? "CG Goodwin [...] has been in contact with" is Wikipedia:OR. What is more precise than the National Horseracing Museum's own website that states: "Athasi takes her place in THIS hall of fame". You don't need a third party to call it that. "Hall of Fame" is not a legal/copyright/trademark terminology and anyone can use it. The British Museum is, however, a legitimate body, even more so than the U.S. or Canadian one because of the Jockey Club involvement. Perhaps you would prefer we change it to the "National Horseracing Musem Hall of Fame" as that would be precisly legal and at par with the others HoFs elsewhere. There is no such thing as a "semi-commercial" business and the person who used it here did so to demean the article. Most all charities and npos, horse racing included, sell things to raise money, even Mother Theresa did. Please note, if you continue to repeat derogatory terms such as "low-grade racehorses" and people as "some staff intern," I will not respond to anything you post. Thanx for your cooperation. Handicapper (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

My apologies, I meant another TB Racing Hall of Fame anywhere - perhaps the US, Canada, France, etc. Handicapper, you have yet to provide reliable, third party sources that state this hall of fame exists. The museum website does not count. Again, none of us doubt the Museum exists or is a legitimate body. However, nothing on the Museum website, besides these two pages, even suggest that a hall of fame exists. If you don't believe Cgoodwin, why don't you contact them yourself and ask? If reliable, third party sources are not provided (and yes, I conducted a search for them, and couldn't find any), this article is a likely candidate for AfD. Dana boomer (talk) 19:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you need to read carefully my comment (you didn't with my first before you replied, either) and then rewrite a proper response if you still think one is needed. If you disagree with my sourced facts, then exercise your right to take it to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests. Handicapper (talk) 20:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Outside opinion - While the two statements from the Museum site imply that there is such a hall of fame, Wikipedia policies require third party sources (which articles from the organization are not) to establish notablity. As an example, for the US Thoroughbred Hall of Fame, there are numerous works referencing the various horses in the hall of fame, and mentioning their membership. There are also mentions in the horse racing press when a horse is inducted into the Hall of Fame. That's what's going to be required to show that this hall of fame is an actual independent notable entity separate from the museum itself (which is indeed notable). Ealdgyth - Talk 00:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I think some of this is just a personality conflict. And being outraged isn't going to solve the dilemma. Handicapper, we all respect your input to the horse racing articles, and we also respect the input of Cgoodwin. You are BOTH valuable editors AND I know you two spat sometimes. (It's wikipedia, drama happens) And you each have your own editing style, and we ALL sometimes edit in ways that others need to clean up a bit. But here, all I can see is internal self-referencing and circular logic. The cite to one horse on the list using the term "hall of fame" seems to be just shorthand or a colloquialism, not a reference to an actual entity. Just show us ONE outside source that this list isn't just a list of horses that the museum has photos of in its archive. A news article that says "Horse XYZ inducted into the British Horseracing Hall of Fame". Even the museum itself doesn't make this claim. You clearly went to a lot of effort to input and wikilink the list, and perhaps it could be renamed something like "list of horses with photos archived in the National Horseracing Museum." But as it sits, I can't find an outside source, either. Montanabw^(talk) 04:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)