Talk:British African-Caribbean people/Archive 1

Archive 1

Meaning of this article

I've been expanding this article on the basis that the term Afro-Caribbean is referred to in it's original context - meaning Caribbean people of African origin in Britain. This term was used to distinguish between Hispanic Caribbeans in places like Cuba, Dominican republic etc. However the term now also means Black British people in general, including people of Nigeria or Ghanaian origin etc. There are three articles, Black British - British Caribbean - and British Afro-Caribbean community. So there may need to be a reformatting of articles, titles and info. --Zleitzen 06:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:British_Afro-Caribbean_community"

Disagree: not all Caribbean British people are of African origin, as many are of Asian descent, notably those whose parents and grandparents came from Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana. Therefore I do not think that the British African-Caribbean and Caribbean British articles should be merged. --Vivenot 22:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean, particuarily in relation to Guyana where you're right, many citizens are of Asian origin also. It may take a little bit of work on the Caribbean British to distinguish this. Do you have any other thoughts on the categorisations?--Zleitzen 22:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting enough and obviously the product of some effort. I just don't see the topic as defined enough or consistent with a stand-alone encyclopedia entry. It belongs as part of something larger Hoya1 06:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Name?

Since people may be referred to as Guyanese-British, or Jamaican-British, why is this not called Afro-Caribbean British community?--Parkwells (talk) 10:15, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

terminology & statistics

I think this article has much merit, although perhaps the whole question of terminology and 'afro-caribbean' 'british-african' 'african' 'west-indian' 'black-british' needs its own article and links - primarily because the history of the terminology reflects changing social attitudes. I also think the article could do with some statistical/demographic information which could be gleaned from the British cenus. For example, when referring to differential outcomes of the community's relationship with certain state bureauocracies such as police, prison and schools it would be useful to use figures from official sources. Hopefully I will be able to add something of use at some stage. Ackees 23:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ackees. There is a Black British page which needs a lot of work and someone made a start on African British with little success it seems. You're right that some organisation needs to be put in place concerning the terminology. Because Afro-Caribbean (or African-Caribbean in line with African-American) is now used interchangeably with a broader definition of Black Britons. In respect to wikipedia, I relate the term with Afro-Latin American and/or Afro-Cuban etc. I'll give this some thought.

I've tried to relate this page specifically to the Caribbean community and people of Caribbean origin. I believe the percentage within Black Britons is around 70%, but the only stat I've seen is from a Birmingham info site and refers to that area alone, which may or may not be typical. I'm not sure how easy it is to glean specific demographic info concerning this. Anyway, at least I've managed to put some detail into this subject, which is poorly represented on wikipedia. I hope that we can expand this and get it right for readers, because it is also an area poorly represented in wider academia and society. Given Wikipedia's growing role as a key tool for seekers of information, it would be a worthwhile achievement.--Zleitzen 00:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Done a bit more and referred to the 2001 UK census

As you can see, I have added a 'statistics' section based on the 2001 British census and the culture section has been hugely expanded. I have also added a few details here and there - I got a note telling me the article was too long! I find that hard to believe, but perhaps I am not expert enough to properly organise things.

The culture section could also do with a bit about fashion and beauty, mentioning afros, dreadlocks, sneakers and, of course, the lovely Naomi Campbell.

There also ought to be a (small) section on politics, mentioning (or at least linking to) prominent MPs, campaigns and issues.--Ackees 14:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That's great work Ackees. Don't worry about the article size at is a knee-jerk guideline rather than a policy, but it's actually opened up the future possibility of the culture section being a seperate page which is a major step forward. On this page we'd have a heading and a brief synopsis - accompanied by a clear link of

See Main Article British African-Caribbean culture

I still haven't brought the history section up to the present, and it needs a paragraph on the last 15 years or so. There are a number of points I'd like to bring in,

1. the varying and changing relationship between the community and other communties - notably Asian and African - the most verifiable material on the net seems to stem from Darcus Howe commentary.
2. the perceived "Yardie" problem and broader guncrime issues. I'm loathe to delve to deeply into this, if you check the Yardie page there are some comments I've made, and I've radically chopped away at that article also. I have my own opinions on the usefulness of the term and the representations by the police and media.

I wouldn't like to see this page get dragged down by endless negative stereotypical views, though the guncrime issue would need to be addressed in some fashion. Rather, I see this page as an opportunity to reveal lesser known and more informative cultural/historical facets of the community. --Zleitzen 14:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

music

Very good page - can I draw people's attention to the smaller Caribbean music in the United Kingdom page? There is some overlap/duplication here and there. John Eden 10:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Education

Unfortunately the referencing system makes it very difficult to add to the article (no fault of the author). It might be worth adding stuff like this [1]. Discusses lingustic problems faced by speakers of non-European insular varieties of English in the school system. - Francis Tyers · 09:45, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting article, Francis, thanks. The article touches on difficulties of English people comprehending creoles and patois but until now I haven't found a source - I can add this and expand that in the language section.--Zleitzen 10:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is actually a lot of sociolinguistic literature on the matter. It could probably use its own article, I will look for some papers on it and post them here when I find them. - Francis Tyers · 10:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Great, linking to another article would be a good idea. I've briefly detailed education difficulties - and perhaps could elaborate on adult difficulties as well. --Zleitzen 10:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

• [2]
• Edwards, Viv (1989b) "Patois and the politics of protest: Black English in British schools", in: English across Cultures, Cultures across English, García, Ofelia,/ Otheguy, Ricardo, eds., Berlin, 359-372.

If you can think of a good name for the article, feel free to suggest it. - Francis Tyers · 11:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Page size

Note: The Readable prose on this page is 38 kilobytes long. --Zleitzen 13:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

African-Caribbean

I hope its clear from the information on this page, that the article is concerned with the established use of the term, which is specifically the experiences of people of Caribbean origin with African heritage. Not Black British people in general or Britons solely of African origin. So it details Lennox Lewis and Linford Christie who are of Jamaican origin, and not Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje and John Fashanu who are of Nigerian origin. Please expand and improve the Black British and African British pages which are concerned with these other topics. --Zleitzen 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that "African-Caribbean" is not universal usage in the UK. "Caribbean", "West Indian" and "Afro-Caribbean" are more common in general speech while "Black Caribbean" is the Census term to distinguish West Indians with Asian or European heritage. While some people may want to mimic "African-American" while being specific to those with a personal Caribbean origin or heritage, many British people will assume that "African-Caribbean" means Black African and Black Caribbean together. --Henrygb 11:07, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

See term content note which states with sources : "Usage of the term "African-Caribbean" has begun to replace "Afro-Caribbean" within media and communications formal style guides (examples can be found in the Guardian newspaper style guide and the University of Bath style guide)" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zleitzen (talk • contribs) 00:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC).

Interesting, but...

Wow, this was a very, very interesting read; comprehensive and informative. But I noticed that (except for sport), almost all the exemplars in the different categories of notable or groundbreaking Afro-Caribbean-Brits are male. Where possible, I think more balanced gender representation is preferable; if good female examples don't exist, I think the reasons why should be addressed. In particular I'm suprised to see Mary Seacole missing. Anchoress 03:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Structure problem of British_African-Caribbean_community#African-Caribbean_culture_in_the_United_Kingdom

Great article, but I'm not sure how the subsection of this article made it past FA review. The subsection subheadings don't appear to have any logical order to them and there are overlaps. Why is "Carnival" the first item if "Music" is the last? Why is film and television a separate item from media (which includes not just newspapers but tv newscasters and radio stations)? What is the rationale for the current sequencing? Bwithh 04:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Do we need to put a temporary lock on this article?

There have already been quite a few reverts to address racist vandalism (one has just occurred while I was writing this comment) today. Is a temporary restriction to registered users only an appropriate response right now? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by StoneColdCrazy (talk • contribs) 19:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

join the raf?

"Many only intended to stay for a few years, and although a number returned to rejoin the RAF, the majority remained to settle permanently."

Who's returning where? This is confusing. Are we saying some had been in the British Isles before and returned on the Windrush to join the RAF? --Gbleem 08:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

That is because it does not make any sense and does not agree with the reference. I have gone to the reference and slightly changed the paragraph to match what the article actually says.Jemmaca (talk) 08:09, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced text added to Religion

Because this text is completely unsourced, containing speculative wording, I've removed it from Religion to here, for discussion:

There is an undetermined number of Muslims in the African Caribbean community. Most live in major cities such as London and Birmingham where there is more exposure to other communities. Most British African Caribbean Muslims are converts, with a minority who are from Muslim families in Trinidad and Tobago. Due to the nebulous nature of the community having few identifiably Caribbean Mosques, there are no real figures for their numbers but some Imams estimate it to be in the high hundreds or low thousands country-wide. The majority are Sunni Muslims following either the Salafi or the Sufi methodology. The sunni muslims tend to be integrated into larger asian or arab originated organisations, (such as the salafi organisation JIMAS or the Sufi Shadhiliyya tariqah.), though some have affiliated themselves to African American groups such as the communities of Warithdeen Mohammed and Jamil_Abdullah_Al-Amin and the Jama'at of Shehu Uthman Dan Fodio. There are isolated pockets of Shia converts as well as scattered members of quasi-Islamic beliefs such as the Nuwaubians and the Nation of Islam again in major cities. A very few converts have become involved in radical Takfiri Islamic groups and one convert was involved in the 7 July 2005 London bombings.

Sandy (Talk) 18:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sandy! Unfortunately, I've had the dis-pleasure of removing that same content from the article (just without the wikification). I shall leave a comment on the offending user's talk page. -- Jmax- 19:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm having massive Wiki-technology problems today (see my talk page), and am quite frustrated that all kinds of vandalism is slipping through here - wish I could be of more help, but I can't get the pages to load fast enough, and I keep finding legitimate changes over vandalism, and I can no longer tell which is which <sigh>. Sandy (Talk) 19:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Why there's not any refence to the black muslins and one of the moxt infamous menbers Germaine Lindsay in the article. Then, this article can not be considered featured.

Well done

This was an interesting and informative article, well-deserving of FA status. Kit O'Connell (Todfox: user / talk / contribs) 07:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Cut and past move

This page was moved by a cut and past move on June 16 last year. I have moved the page back and merged the history. It is very important that the history of edits to Wikipedia articles stays with the article, because if anyone else claims copyright (usually an over zealous Wikipedia editor who notices that the page exists on some mirror which does not credit Wikipedia) that the history of the edits before the version on the mirror are available to make sure that it is not a copy from that mirror.

Further I have left the page at "Afro-Caribbean", because that is the name used in the two dictionaries (one English and one American) that are cited. I think that if anyone wishes to move it back to "African-Caribbean" then they should put in a request at WP:RM so that the issue can be fully discussed before a move is made. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well it should be returned to African-Caribbean which is the contemporary term. As we have African-American rather than Afro-American etc. See this, etc Afro-Caribbean is an older term as the article discusses, and has been superseded by the modern term - dictionary definitions or not. I'll move it back to its correct title. By the way, major changes to a featured article - especially the title (which has been on the main page as African-Caribbean) should not be implemented before discussion. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 16:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge

The article Caribbean British is exactly the same this article, the words may be different, but this article is more or less about exactly the same thing - Caribbean people in the UK, the other article should definately be merged into the British African-Caribbean community article, or deleted completely, as it is less detailed and much less suited. Stevvvv4444 20:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I support the merge of this article into the British African-Caribbean community article. --SasiSasi (talk) 20:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Broken references at top; en dashes required, plus other MOS breaches

Can someone deal with them? I'm just passing through. Tony (talk) 09:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bahamian British Badagnani (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Result

As usual in these cases, the entire text of the article was deleted rather than merged. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Bahamian_British. Badagnani (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Material to merge here

An AfD for numerous articles has been closed with the consensus being to merge the articles here. The only information in the three articles (Saint Kitts and Nevisian British, Saint Lucian British and Vincentian British) that is referenced and worth keeping, I feel, is the population data. However, just adding this to the British African-Caribbean community article would look a bit out of place. I therefore suggest that the data be added to the statistics section here, along with census data on other countries of birth, which can be found at Foreign-born population of the United Kingdom. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I have now added a paragraph to this effect. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:25, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Religion section is deeply flawed

The section on religion is lacking in inline references, making it full of unsubstantiated generalisations.

Despite itself claiming that less than 10% of African Caribbean people are muslims, 50% of the section seems devoted to disparaging this minority-within-a-minority by inappropriately citing sundry examples of criminality and alleged criminality.

The effect is to: a) defame African-Caribbean muslims in general (by focusing on criminals rather on the spirituality of the majority of the group); b) defame the African-Caribbean community as a whole by implying that it 'harbours' criminals; c) neglect the Christian (and other beliefs) of the community.

To correct these serious errors in this section requires a neutral, well-informed, objective and well-intentioned contributor. Otherwise, the section is severely lowering the standard of the entire article.Ackees (talk) 22:24, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree - I don't understand why most of the section is on Muslim belief when the majority of people from the Caribbean follow a Christian faith, and quite a few Rastafarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.0.251.54 (talk) 09:36, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into British African-Caribbean community. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

---

I'm proposing the merger of Dominicans in the United Kingdom into British African-Caribbean community. The former topic has no coverage in reliable sources to establish notability and the material that is there would therefore be better employed as part of a wider article instead. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Religion section POV

The religion section of the article could do with rewording as I'm not sure it conforms to WP:NPOV at the moment. The gangs discussion seems a bit off-topic as well. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Are African Caribbean people in Northern Ireland Orange?

I notice that "British African-Caribbean community" has been put in terms of the United Kingdom, rather than Great Britain. I am afraid this implies that the African-Caribbean community in Northern Ireland tends to hold unionist views. But is this the case, I wonder.Harrypotter (talk) 19:17, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Mixed race statistics in infobox

I removed the statistics on mixed-race people from the infobox because they seemed overly selective. Why only include people of mixed white and black background? They were restored on the grounds that the statistics were sourced, but that isn't the problem. What do people think about this? What figures should be included in the infobox? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:24, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Mary Seacole was mixed race

The definition of is given in this article as "who are of West Indian background and whose ancestors were primarily indigenous to Africa." Mary Seacole was half Scottish (her father's side) and half Afro-Caribbean (her mother's side), and there is a possibility that only one of her maternal grandparents was black. So should she appear in this article as it stresses just African/Caribbean heritage and its definition does not include mixed race people? 86.134.26.96 (talk) 15:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Since the Afro Caribbean community tends to have mixed race relationships more often than any other group in the UK I find that (at least anecdotally since I am a mixed raced Scottish/Afro Caribbean myself) most people in the community include mixed race members as also being Afro Caribbean unless the person in question makes an effort to describe themselves as only being mixed race. This tenancy also reflects the mixed race ancestry that most Caribbean's have anyway due to the islands history of colonialism and slavery. I think because of this tendency you will find many sources and people using both identities, Afro Caribbean and Mixed Race, interchangeably so I think keeping Mary in is okay in this case. DSQ (talk) 15:36, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 00:09, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

munitions

Sorry if this isn't the correct way to raise a query, but the article cited in footnote 10 doesn't say what the text says. Text says 15000 immigrants went to work in munitions factories in the north-west. The article says only that 15000 were recruited into the British West Indies regiment. This was a fighting body that servied abroad, not factory workers; see here: http://www.1914-1918.net/britishwestindiesregiment.html

Also "Many Caribbeans were attracted to work opportunities in the munitions and chemical factories in various parts of Britain especially the North West" but "many" is entirely unspecified.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.11.141.100 (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

munitions

Sorry if this isn't the correct way to raise a query, but the article cited in footnote 10 doesn't say what the text says. Text says 15000 immigrants went to work in munitions factories in the north-west. The article says only that 15000 were recruited into the British West Indies regiment. This was a fighting body that servied abroad, not factory workers; see here: http://www.1914-1918.net/britishwestindiesregiment.html

Also "Many Caribbeans were attracted to work opportunities in the munitions and chemical factories in various parts of Britain especially the North West" but "many" is entirely unspecified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.11.141.100 (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Uh, "Caribbeans" isn't a word

Yes, some news source occasionally use the word "Caribbean" to refer to a person and then tack on an "s" at the end to refer to a group of Caribbean people. But check just about any reputable dictionary and you won't find a definition of the word "Caribbean" that refers to a person from the Caribbean, nor will you find "Caribbeans" as an acceptable word to refer to a group of Caribbean people. It would be a bit like saying "He is a British" or "They are Britishes". Standard use is more along the lines of the title of this article -- these are "Caribbean people" -- or to call them "West Indians".

In line with that, can we fix the references to "Caribbeans" in this article? ~ Hairouna (talk) 09:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

"vt unexplained ed"

@Tmol42: In this recent edit, you added "vt unexpained ed" to the top of this article. Was this a typographical error? Jarble (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

That was clearly supposed to be part of Tmol42's edit summary, so I've removed it from the article. Thanks for highlighting this, Jarble. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

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