Talk:Breast tax
Latest comment: 3 months ago by 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 in topic Proposed change: "Head tax" to "Poll tax"
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 sep 2023 edit
In this page, it is requested that the section that breast tax was given to Ezhava division should be removed. Because it seems like a scam. Because nowhere in the reference it is specifically mentioned that only Ezhava caste was given. The only thing in history is that the tax was taken from low caste women in the Travancore region. With that, you should avoid Ezhava..Drawings provide man (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- @ChandlerMinh: you removed a lot of sources diff; up to you to restore some of them. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hey, Joshua. I am currently travelling. I will make the required changes within few days. ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Ezhava/Thiyya is the largest Hindu caste in Kerala even today. Was also the case a 100 years ago. They are OBC today and were considered below Shudras a hundred years ago. So Ezhavas were the major victim of breast tax by default. ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- I am sure that the nadar caste section suffered the most from the breast tax system. There has been a riot about this, I can submit as many references as you like.Channar Revolt The Ezhava caste may also have experienced it but I don't think there is any need to single it out. Because the women of other lower castes had to pay tax like the Ezhavas in Travancore. But don't show the Ezhava group like you do by taking the Nadar caste (There is no need to mention it separately on the page.).Drawings provide man (talk) 14:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Ok. You can add the references for Nadar. But don't remove Ezhava until this discussion is closed. ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Manorama News In my opinion this page should be kept as a page related to Travancore nadar revolt. Because no one in other community has protested for this reason. Another place called Cherthala is said to have had her breast cut off by a young woman named Nangeli which is not related to the Travancore breast tax and historians argue that this is a fabricated story. I do not forget that everyone including Ezhava may have experienced this bad practice. However, if examined historically, it indicates that the rebellion broke out in relation to the Nadar caste. So should Ezhava be placed at the top? Let's say no.Drawings provide man (talk) 15:20, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Ok. You can add the references for Nadar. But don't remove Ezhava until this discussion is closed. ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- I am sure that the nadar caste section suffered the most from the breast tax system. There has been a riot about this, I can submit as many references as you like.Channar Revolt The Ezhava caste may also have experienced it but I don't think there is any need to single it out. Because the women of other lower castes had to pay tax like the Ezhavas in Travancore. But don't show the Ezhava group like you do by taking the Nadar caste (There is no need to mention it separately on the page.).Drawings provide man (talk) 14:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Can the mention of "Ezhava caste" be removed from its introduction and other peragragh? Drawings provide man (talk) 14:01, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- I have re-inserted the original references and text. I don't see why "Ezhava" should be removed. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 sep 2023 edit
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"Even women of other dominant castes like the Nairs had to keep their breasts bare in the presence of Brahmin men. Nair women had no right to hide their breasts in front of them. Brahmin women bare their breasts only in front of the deity in the temple. Before the arrival of Christian missionaries, it was common for women to go naked in Kerala in the 18th century."[1][2][3][4][5]
References
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=B_7sDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA49&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs242ozY6BAxW8a2wGHWlNCtsQ6AF6BAgKEAM#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FaFHDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs242ozY6BAxW8a2wGHWlNCtsQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QU0gEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA139&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiVlMvpz46BAxVITWwGHbEMDDE4ChDoAXoECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=HIRSEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&dq=nair+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiN4uLqz46BAxXTTmwGHQ1bCCo4FBDoAXoECAMQAw#v=onepage&q=nair%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=RK__DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT47&dq=nayar+breast+cloth+brahmin&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidluyI3o6BAxXtUGwGHdfTAik4FBDoAXoECAkQAw#v=onepage&q=nayar%20breast%20cloth%20brahmin&f=false
Travancore breast tax is also a history recorded in all related books. Would you add this peragragh at the top of this page? @ChandlerMinh:, @Joshua Jonathan: Drawings provide man (talk) 14:20, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
- The article already states that "covering the breasts was not the norm in Kerala's matrilineal society during Nangeli's life-span." Your statement "it was common for women to go naked in Kerala in the 18th century" seems hihly unlikely to me; you probably mean "half-naked." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- Analyze the references I have provided. Because all the sources I have given are very clear - that Nair women should not forget breast in front of Brahmin. I don't understand why you pretend not to see it. It should be added to this page. It is true that women did not cover their breasts in the 18th century because it was common for all women who were not prostitutes to have open breasts.Reference[1] Irrespective of the caste, the society of that time wore it as a harlot if it was covered - check this in detail in the references I have given above.Drawings provide man (talk) 07:24, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
- See this - "The Nayar women in Travancore were allowed to dress as they pleased by a Royal Proclamation in 1865." Are you explaining that you did not see this?SourceDrawings provide man (talk) 07:28, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://books.google.co.in/books?id=eF-pMrcqw5UC&pg=PA198&dq=malabar+women+breast+cloth&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved= 2ahUKEwiF36Dq_pKBAxUsSGwGHQB8DpMQ6AF6BAgEEAM#v=onepage&q=malabar%20women% 20breast%20cloth&f=false
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 November 2023 edit
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In the section "Head tax", there is "Kingdom of Kingdom of Travancore". One "Kingdom of" too much in my opinion. MacGyver (talk) 07:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
- Check. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 January 2024 edit
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The "breast tax" (mulakkaram or mula-karam in Malayalam) was a head tax
The "head tax" (Tala-karam or Talakkaram in Malayalam) was a head tax 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 15:43, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Not done: It's not clear what you're suggesting should be changed in an article about the breast tax. —C.Fred (talk) 15:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- In a ==Head tax== section
- Change this - The "breast tax" (mulakkaram or mula-karam in Malayalam) was a head tax
- To this - The "head tax" (Tala-karam or Talakkaram in Malayalam) was a head tax 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 15:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- please check carefully 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 15:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Reference: https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/nangeli-the-forgotten-dalit-woman-who-stood-up-against-travancores-breast-tax/862452/ 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 15:50, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Based on that source, the article is correct as is. —C.Fred (talk) 15:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Again, based on that source, there were two separate per-capita taxes: mulakkaram, or breast tax, levied on women, and talakkaram, or head tax, levied on men. —C.Fred (talk) 15:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- yes your are right 👍
- But in the article perticuly in a In a ==Head tax== section, there is error - The "breast tax" (mulakkaram or mula-karam in Malayalam) was a head tax, it should be The "head tax" (Tala-karam or Talakkaram in Malayalam) was a head tax. 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 16:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 16:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Technically the breast tax was a fee to allow women in certain castes to wear clothing on their upper bodies, but constructively it was a per-capita tax, also known as a head tax. —C.Fred (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be better to add or edit/ change for clear details knowledge. 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 16:09, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Technically the breast tax was a fee to allow women in certain castes to wear clothing on their upper bodies, but constructively it was a per-capita tax, also known as a head tax. —C.Fred (talk) 16:05, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Again, based on that source, there were two separate per-capita taxes: mulakkaram, or breast tax, levied on women, and talakkaram, or head tax, levied on men. —C.Fred (talk) 15:56, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Based on that source, the article is correct as is. —C.Fred (talk) 15:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Proposed change: "Head tax" to "Poll tax" edit
Is there anything to be gained by changing the section "Head tax" to "Poll tax" and making the following edit?
- The "breast tax" (mulakkaram or mula-karam in Malayalam) was a
headpoll tax imposed on the Nadars…
Looking for wider input than the one IP above. —C.Fred (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
- Consider enhancing clarity in the ==Head tax== section by revising 'The "breast tax" (mulakkaram or mula-karam in Malayalam) was a head tax' to 'The "head tax" (Tala-karam or Talakkaram in Malayalam) was a distinct form of head tax.' Thank you for your attention to detail!
- "A general tax was levied on men called Talakkaram, literally ‘head tax’; Mulakkaram literally means ‘breast tax’." 2409:40E5:16:B893:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 16:30, 24 January 2024 (UTC)