Talk:Breaking the Spell (Stork book)/Archive 1

One source overly weighted in Reception section

[1] - This added interesting info to the Reception section, but overly weighted that section to one source - it makes up about one-third of the entire Reception section. I trimmed it [2], but I fear it is still a bit too much weight to the one source. Cirt (talk) 11:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Now it's a bit better. Cirt (talk) 11:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Several factual errors and inconsistencies

There are several factual errors in this article: (1) Jane was not raised in Midland; she was born in Albany (WA) and spent her childhood in various places in WA; as a young housewife she lived briefly in Midland. (2) Jane did not avoid extradition. A 1990 US extradition request was denied by the competent German court on the ground that it did not meet the criteria of the US-German extradition treaty (punishability in both countries). She subsequently lived in Germany, unable to travel abroad. (3) In 2009 Jane did not work as a schoolteacher in WA. She lives as a homemaker in Germany, together with her second husband George whom she married in 1990.

Furthermore, the article contains incomplete and/or conflicting statements:

The Background section states correctly: "In 1991, the German government refused to extradite Stork back to the United States.[9][7] In June 1991, U.S. prosecutors filed affidavits in the murder conspiracy case with the Higher Regional Court in Karlsruhe, Germany, as part of an attempt to extradite Stork from Germany to the U.S.[10]" However, it ignores the reasons why the extradition request was denied. The affidavits were filed in June 1990.

The Content section states: "She spent a period of 16 years exiled in Germany,[6] and later served jail time for her role in the attempted murder plot.[13]" This contradicts the statement in the Background section: "An Oregon judge sentenced her to five years probation, and three months time already served in a German jail.[7][12][9] Though Stork could have faced life in prison, U.S. District Judge Judge Malcolm F. Marsh thought she had "seen the error of her ways."[9]" The judge was actually referring to the extradition custody in Germany from mid-September till early December 1990.

The references in this article need to be checked for their reliability and correctness.

The article merits a partial rewrite. --Orege (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC) --Orege (talk) 15:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Quote from [WP:RS] "Editors must take particular care when writing biographical material about living persons, for legal reasons and in order to be fair. Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material immediately if it is about a living person, and do not move it to the talk page. This applies to any material related to living persons on any page in any namespace, not just article space." --Orege (talk) 15:25, 8 May 2009 (UTC) --Orege (talk) 18:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Response

At present, every single sentence in the article is cited to secondary sources that satisfy WP:RS and WP:V. Do you have sources that backup your above claims? Cirt (talk) 18:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Update: I made some corrections. However, I saw this [3] but was unable to find a source discussing this 1990 marriage to George - where did you come by a source verifying this information "with her second husband George whom she married in 1990." ? Cirt (talk) 18:47, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Response: Please check: "It was a time of madness", The Weekend Australian, June 17-18, 2006, by Richard Guilliatt. In case you cannot find it let me know and I will send you a copy.

I am not familiar (yet) with all the WP rules and guidelines. However, I do believe that a book page should focus on the book (have you read it?) its substance and its qualities, not on what has been written about the author elsewhere, unless it is directly related to the book and its reception. If you use external sources please check their general availability, their reliability, and their potential bias. (Contents in ref 6, for instance, to an article by Fran Metcalf (hard to obtain, especially when you do not live in Australia), seem to be completely made up. Ref 13 (at least what I saw of it) does not corroborate the claim that Jane served jail time after her 16 years "exiled" in Germany; in fact I positively know that she did not. Judge Marsh sentenced her in January 2006 to "time served", i.e., to the time (3 months) she had spent in extradition custody in a German jail, in 1990.) Jane Stork did an extensive book tour in Australia, in April 2009, including interviews with TV (Channels 7, 10), ABC, SBS, community TV and radio, and the press. You may find numerous references by googling for instance ("Jane Stork" spell). And please, remove at least the inconsistencies I pointed at in my previous post. Please be more careful in observing the above quoted WP:RS rule.

Please note: "The most important service rendered by the press and the magazines is that of educating people to approach printed matter with distrust." (Samuel Butler, 1835-1902; if he lived today he would certain include the Internet and WP in particular.)

Thank you. --Orege (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I will try to look into the above source you suggested. Is that the source that mentions that Jane Stork married George in 1990? Cirt (talk) 16:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, that is (at least) one of the sources. It mentions a few other facts as well that may be useful in updating this article. Another hint: contact the publisher (e.g., ...ATpanmacmillan.com.au, check their website for complete e-mail address). By the way, when you open the book, the first page: "about the author", clearly states that "Jane Stork now lives in Germany" (so much for the initial version of now being a schoolteacher in WA!!). It might indeed be a good idea for you to simply get the book. There you can read the story in full, of Jane and George (starting in part 3) getting together, marrying, etc.. Please do, then rewrite your article or else let me do it, without reverting my edits. Thank you.--Orege (talk) 17:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's first start by WP:AGF and allowing me a chance to please look at the above secondary sources you have suggested. Thanks. Cirt (talk) 17:32, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I can confirm that the article Orege mentions refers to her marrying Stork in 1990. Jayen466 18:09, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay I will try to check it out. Cirt (talk) 18:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

• The article has some more info about the sexual abuse. It says,

  FOR KYLIE AND PETER, their mother's arrest and the collapse of Rajneeshpuram marked the disintegration of the only world they'd known since early childhood. Teenagers at the time, they ended up in suburban California share-houses with other sannyasin kids, like aliens crash-landed on a strange planet. At 17, Peter could drive a bulldozer, program computers and operate audio and video equipment to professional standards, yet he barely grasped how to handle money or negotiate ordinary social situations. Kylie was proficient at book-keeping and photography, had worked as an airline hostess and was 2 years into a relationship with her 35-year-old de facto; she was 15.
  "I was very, very confused," says Kylie, now 35, a gentle-natured young woman who still speaks in soft California vowels. Her mother, she recalls, was in jail proclaiming her innocence and denouncing the Bhagwan as a conman. The guru and his followers, meanwhile, were attacking her mother. It would be a long time before Kylie resolved those confusions; for many years she kept her Sanskrit name, and at 18 she even travelled to Pune and underwent sterilisation. "It's taken me years to feel comfortable in the world," she says, "and to work out how things work out here."
  For Stork, rekindling relations with her children has involved confronting many painful truths that she was blind to during her years with the Bhagwan. On the commune, she now realises, Kylie suffered poor nutrition and agonising ear infections, was bed-ridden with mononucleosis (glandular fever) for 3 months and had her four eye-teeth removed in a botched dental procedure. There is also the uncomfortable knowledge that at 13, Kylie was having unprotected sex with a man 20 years older.
  "At the time I didn't see it as sexual abuse," Kylie says, choosing her words carefully. "It was my 'choice', so to speak ... Everybody was doing it and nobody was saying we couldn't. My parents certainly weren't - they knew I had this boyfriend. So I didn't really see anything wrong with it, at the time. In retrospect, when I see 13-year-olds now, I think it's just not right." Asked how her relationship stands with her mother, Kylie laughs and says, "We have intense moments, from time to time."
  For Stork, there are terrible ironies in the events of the past 12 months. It was her son's illness that compelled her to fully confront her past, free herself from the Bhagwan's grip and achieve the freedom to be with her children. Yet that same illness seems destined to cut short her time with Peter - only 2 weeks after our meeting, his condition began worsening, and doctors have said there is nothing further they can do.

• Don't know how to put that in the article, but that is what it says. Cheers, Jayen466 21:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Update

Better? Cirt (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

"Stork returned to Germany after her sentencing,[10] and met her second husband, a mathematics professor named George, while she was managing a juice bar.[7] In 2009, Stork resided in near the Black Forest in Germany,[7] with her second husband.[6]" THIS IS NONSENSE AND NOT CORROBORATED BY THE SOURCES QUOTED.

"She spent a period of 16 years exiled in Germany,[6] and later served jail time while awaiting possible extradition to the United States for her role in the attempted murder plot.[14][10]" THIS IS WRONG AND NOT CORROBORATED BY THE SOURCES QUOTED. IT CONTRADICTS "An Oregon judge sentenced her to five years probation, and three months time already served in a German jail during the extradition dispute with the United States.[8][13][10]"

PLEASE READ THE BOOK AND EXERCISE MORE CARE EDITING THIS ARTICLE, FOCUSSING ON THE BOOK ITSELF (in accordance with [WP:RS]; given that you obviously have not read the book it is becoming more and more difficult to assume good faith).

Thank you. --Orege (talk) 10:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Please do not use CAPS in such a manner, it gives the appearance of shouting at other people and is not civil. Cirt (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I have made further changes, supported by the secondary sources [4]. Cirt (talk) 13:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry for giving this appearance. But much of what you are writing is simply wrong. Please understand that the background and contents sections contradict each other and that this gives rise to some impatience (and doubting your good faith). The statement "She met her second husband, a mathematics professor named George, while she was managing a juice bar in Germany" is entirely irrelevant in this context and should be deleted. (In fact, she met him in 1988-89, not long after she had been deported from the US - unfortunately I cannot at this stage give you a source - other than the book itself). Please e-mail me (see talk page) the sources you are referring to. And please let me know if you read the book. In fact, I would greatly appreciate it if we could co-operate on this article to get it right, and focussed on the book. So far the article hardly deserves the predicate "B-class". Thank you. --Orege (talk) 15:19, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Every single sentence has a citation directly after it, supporting the information in the sentence. This is also the case for the sentence you have quoted, above. The book itself is not the best source to use for anything other than the Contents subsection, as it is a primary source and as such it presents the POV of its author. Cirt (talk) 15:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Update: Per the complaints of Orege (talk · contribs), I have re-assessed this article as Start-class [5], and removed the phrase about "managing a juice bar" [6]. Cirt (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It is mainly the contents section that I am unhappy with (as it partly contradicts the background section). (Inconsistency is simply bad quality, I am sorry to say that.) Reading the book would indeed greatly help you to improve the contents section. Regarding Jane Stork's marriage with George, rereading (and quoting) the article in the Weekend Australian (see above) would also be helpful. Thanks. --Orege (talk) 13:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

As you can see from above, I have already implemented changes based on your various complaints. Cirt (talk) 13:21, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

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