Talk:Brahma Kumaris/Archive 16

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"It is also often characterised as a cult."

Hi Sudiop,

I just checked the reference you used for that statement. I doesn't seem to support it. I only found one mention of "Brahamkumaris" in the book and this is the context.

Ramayana, and the numerous religious texts with continuous refining movements over many centuries attempted to perfect Hinduism as an equalitarian religion.

Consequently a plethora of 33,000.000 Gods, cults and sects have emerged adding to the intricacy and simplicity at the same time. Cults like Shakti cult Krishna cult Brahmakumaris, Bhakti cult, Aiyyapa cult besides sects like Shaivism, Vaishnavism Vira Shaivism, Trika Shaivism, Brahma Samaj, Arya Samaj are part to it. Shankaracharya, Madhavacharya, Ramanuj, Vittal, Tukarum, Mirabai, Namdev, Ramananda, Trilochana, Tulsidas, Guru Nanakdev, Shirdi Sai, Ramkrishnaparumhansa, Dayanand Saraswati, Vivekanand, Aurbindo are a few revered icons. In one sentence our capacity to adjust and accommodate all streams, offered adequate space to individuals to practice what they believed and at the same time it is also not easy to reconcile contradictions arising out of such baffling involvedness.

There are a number of issues here,

1. The phrase "often characterised" is a weasel word expression. You have only found one source and that source does not say that the Brahmakumaris are "characterised" as a cult, nor that this happens often.
2. Context. You appear to be using the word, "cult" in the pejorative meaning. The author is listing Brahmakumaris in a long list of examples he is giving as examples of "refining movements" of Hinduism. That list also includes many well known groups and branches of Hinduism and it is clear that he does not give the word the same meaning as the statement you are making from it. Also he doesn't use the word after "Brahmakumris", only after "Krishna". He omitted some commas in the list however it is certainly not clear that he labelled the Brahmakumaris a cult in any capacity.
3. In India, the word "cult" is freely used without any negative connotation. This is the English Language encyclopaedia and the intended audience will certainly interpret the same word in a negative way in the main English-speaking countries.

Kindly revert this edit.

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Cults like Shakti cult Krishna cult Brahmakumaris, Bhakti cult, Aiyyapa cult besides......

That statement clearly says Brahma kumaris is a cult. The context doesn't really matter. We can use the word 'cult' when reliable sources use it. I've reworded it and added another source. Supdiop (T🔹C) 13:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The context does matter if you are using a reference to prove a controversial point that the author was not making. If you have a problem with this then we can invite a third opinion.

The other reference you used is not suitable either, at the bottom of the article it clearly states, "Editor's Note: Offstumped Report is a Digital Persona for aggregating Opinionated Center Right Commentary by Niti Central Staff" (emphasis mine). It is "opinionated" and "commentary". Certainly not a reliable source for the claim you are making.

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we can take a 3rd opinion. I found two more sources which say bk is a cult. http://www.examiner.com/article/cult-victims-exploited-speak-out-today-about-abuses-and-fear http://www.telegraph.com/culture/books/bookreviews/10862459/The-House-Is-Full-of-Yogis-by-Will-Hodgkinson-review.html Supdiop (T🔹C) 15:32, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Of the two new sources, one of them is from an anti-cult source, David Love "Cult Examiner" who tend to call anything a cult. The other is probably used in a light-hearted way. In fact Will Hodgkinson has even visited the Brahma Kumaris to talk about his book. So it couldn't have been that damning.

Please see how the word "cult" is used in other NRM article such as Prem Rawat "...attracted substantial adverse publicity when it was thought to be a cult", ISKON "ISKCON has also been scrutinised by some anti-cult movements", Sathya Sai Baba (no mention). Notice the quality of references used. Also notice that the articles are not saying, "XYZ is considered a cult".

I was going to request a 3rd opinion but since you brought up two new references I thought it would be best to respond and hear your response first.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 16:55, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

See Scientology, it is mentioned that Scientology is often characterised as cult. Brahma kumaris is also often characterised as cult. All the refs I provided are acceptable except the niticentral. I don't know about other articles. As per the policies, we can use word "cult" if reliable sources use it. I think we need to go to the next step i.e 3rd opinion. Supdiop (T🔹C) 18:12, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

If a reference "uses" a word that is non-neutral then it needs to be reworded into something that complies with WP:NPOV for the article. Using a reference to bypass WP:NPOV is not an acceptable use of a reference.

In the case of Scientology there are multiple reliable sources that describe how the subject is characterised as a cult. That is not the case here.

To say that it is "considered" or "characterised" as a cult without attribution is a clear case of WP:WEASEL.

None of the references are making the central point that the organisation is a cult. They are merely using the word in a sentence. They are also not neutral authorities on the subject to make such a declaration even if they actually did. Any old Joe can write a book and get it published. They don't meet the requirement, "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject", as per WP:LABEL.

If I was not under WP:COI restrictions, and this was any other article, I would have just reverted the offending text with an edit comment since it is quite basic. I will request a third opinion. Regards Bksimonb (talk) 05:10, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request:

This is a bit of a tricky one. We do have good references stating that this practice is a cult, so technically it can be added to the article. However I don’t believe that it should be for the following reasons: 1) It’s giving undue weight to the concept. Neither of the sources provided area actually ‘’about’’ this group being a cult. They only mention the fact in an offhand fashion in the middle of other sentences. This is in stark contrast to groups such as Scientology, where there are entire books discussing whether the group is a cult. Even of the group is a cult, the references don’t suggest that being a cult is central to its functioning or public perception, therefore it certainly doesn’t belong in the lede. 2) It is prejudicial. As the cult article notes, in the English speaking world, the word often carries derogatory connotations. As such it is prejudicial and unencylcopaedic. We should avoid prejudicial terms wherever possible. If we mean that this religion has “socially deviant or novel beliefs and practices” then that is what we should say, which the article already does. However it’s not obvious that is what the references to cult mean because… 3) It is ambiguous. Wikipedia alone has an article titled Cult and an article titled “Cult (religious practice)” along with a hat-note for no less than four other possible subjects someone searching on the term is likely to be interested in. The article titled “Cult” notes that “a precise definition [is] problematic” and that the word is often prejudicial in the English speaking world (I would add that in my experience outside the Anglo-Saxon English speaking world the word is also often not derogatory). The “Cult (religious practice)” article notes that a cult is essentially the acts of devotion to a god. It is far from obvious what context the references cited were using. Since the term itself is highly ambiguous and the meaning in the context of use in the references is unclear, we shouldn’t include it. Edits on Wikipedia should aid understanding of a subject. Usage of the word cult here is unlikely to make the status of this group any clearer to most readers. None of these reasons by themselves would be enough, IMO, to exclude the word. However the fact that all three apply makes it a deal breaker. Adding a prejudicial term to an article is something we should always think carefully about. When we have no reliable sources to indicate that the application of that term is widespread or relevant then we probably shouldn’t be including it. When the definition of the term is inherently ambiguous and the usage in the references is not in any way apparent from context, we really don’t have enough information to include it. We would be adding a fringe, prejudicial term when we don’t have any indication what the sources actually meant when they used it. Mark Marathon (talk) 06:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for a detailed and well-thought-through response. Much appreciated Bksimonb (talk) 07:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

RFC for adding the word "Cult"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There are reliable sources which say Brahma Kumaris is a cult. Based on a third opinion, it was removed that "Brahma kumaris is considered as cult". Please write your opinion in "Support" section if you want to re-add it (with suggested re-wordings) or write it in "Oppose" section if you don't want to re-add it. There is also a discussion section. Result of the RFC will be based on strength of the arguments not on the number of votes. Thanks Supdiop (T🔹C) 16:00, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

• BrahmaKumaris is not a cult. It is a spiritual organization that is known to be doing excellent work. Prodigyhk (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, there are many reliable sources saying the opposite. Supdiop (T🔹C) 17:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

List the sources for review to determine if meets the criteria for inclusion. Prodigyhk (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

http://www.examiner.com/article/cult-victims-exploited-speak-out-today-about-abuses-and-fear http://www.telegraph.com/culture/books/bookreviews/10862459/The-House-Is-Full-of-Yogis-by-Will-Hodgkinson-review.html

[1] Supdiop (T🔹C) 18:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

See list of cults in india, this is not a reliable source but it will show you how Brahma Kumaris is seen by the public. Supdiop (T🔹C) 18:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose based on my comments below, objecting both to the lack of information regarding specifically where the material is to be added and the problem of such a simple declarative statement being rather specifically contrary to WP:LABEL. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree largely with John Carter's comments below. If any mention of "cult" is to be made it needs to be directly attributed to the people making the claims. (Also, it needs to be a significant viewpoint in order to mention it at all...nearly every religion has at least somebody calling it a cult.) Also, the examiner.com link above is not a good source...it seems to be somebody with a self-hosted website writing in to a program and calling BK a cult. The telegraph.com link didn't work for me. ~Adjwilley (talk) 18:55, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Did you see the google books ref? Supdiop (T🔹C) 19:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I followed the link to the Google Book. It doesn't seem to be a book about religion, cults, or Brahma Kumaris, and it only seems to mention BK once in passing. I don't think that book is a good source for what you're trying to say. ~Adjwilley (talk) 20:51, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

I would definitely not use phrasing which says in wikipedia's voice that the BK's are a cult. It would be useful to know exactly where the proposed addition is being considered. Also, while I would not necessarily object to seeing phrasing along the lines of "The BKs have been counted as a cult by..." or "The BKs have been argued to be a cult based on [relevant perceived characteristics]," even for such attributed discussion of the cult claim, it would be useful to know exactly where in the text the proposed material is being considered. John Carter (talk) 16:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

It should be in the lead. "The BKs have been counted as a cult by several sources" is good. What do you think? Supdiop (T🔹C) 18:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Or Brahma Kumaris is characterised as a cult by many sources Supdiop (T🔹C) 18:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, I think it might be best to withdraw the current, clearly flawed, RfC and maybe a bit later start a new one with more clearly defined options. For myself, I might first start by creating a draft of a more fully fleshed out lead, because the existing two paragraph lede seems insufficient. Perhaps version with, basically, one paragraph per extant major article subdivision might work. Also, I would definitely not just say that it has been characterized as a cult in the lede, but provide some degree of useful information, perhaps indicating the specific "cult"-like characteristics it has displayed which have motivated others to call it a cult. John Carter (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Birth year

I know this topic has been discussed to death in the past, but recently, a few IP addresses have brought it up again at Dada Lekhraj. The broad consensus from the past discussions was that all the reliable sources mention the year of birth as 1876. But since then, there are a couple of new books (2013 and 2015) that state the birth year as 1884 in passing mentions. Since this article also states the date of birth as 1876, contributors here might want to take a look at Talk:Dada Lekhraj#Birth_year. utcursch | talk 15:39, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Long story short: The actual birth year is more likely to be 1884 than 1876 but as far as I know there are no RS to say so yet. If any such sources are published then I would be happy to go with the new date. The Prophecy in the New Millennium just states the birth/death date in passing as you say. If it was the only reference that ever existed for this fact I would say it was fine but since it contradicts all previous RS then I guess some justification for the revised date is required to demonstrate that it isn't a misprint. Bksimonb (talk) 13:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Use of primary sources

Hi Sudiop,

There are some cases where the use of a primary source is useful and appropriate. Some of the text you removed in [this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brahma_Kumaris&curid=3060479&diff=681935834&oldid=677740886] is actually useful to a reader.

Let's start with the statement:

the BKWSU website reported over 8,500 centres in 110 countries. [2] These...

This information is useful to the reader but may not be reliable because some organisations tend to exaggerate their numbers. However, there isn't really any other source for this type of information so it is presented in a qualified way, "...BKWSU website reported...". This alerts the reader, in a neutral way, to the fact that the source is primary and they can make of that what they will. Simply removing the statement doesn't really improve the article. I would be grateful if you could put it back.

It is also useful to know about Sakar and Avyakt murlis and what the difference is. In this case not only was the source primary but the link was also dead (the website has no content). A more constructive approach in this instance would be to find a reliable secondary source to illustrate the difference. Or at least remove the dead link and signal that a citation is required, since the text isn't, as far as I am aware, controversial.

I fully support you removing the stuff about the UN. It is unsourced and looks promotional. Thank you for spotting it.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 07:25, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Bksimonb, we cannot know how many centres are there in the world unless there is a reliable source. We should not add things which are unreliability sourced. I've added the murali text back. Supdiop 2 (talk) 16:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Sudiop. I will see if I can find a secondary source. All the other edits look fine.

One secondary source we could use is Wallis, "The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition': Responding to Late Modernity", Jan 2007, ISBN 8120829557, 9788120829558, page 41: "...according to the University there are currently around 450,000 members attending 4,000 centres in 77 countries managed directly From the Mt. Abu. Headquarters".

Of course, it's a bit out of date now.

Best wishes Bksimonb (talk) 17:38, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

It is a secondary source but the information is still from the primary source which is unreliable. Supdiop (T🔹C) 10:59, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

The source would not be reliable for a statement like, "There are currently 450, 000 members attenting 4,000 centres..." etc. It is reliably sourced to say, "According to the University there are currently around 450,000 members...". Do you see the distinction?

Please look at other NRM articles where the number of centres/members is quoted, an attributed, to the organisation itself such as, The Salvation Army "The organization reports a worldwide membership of over 1.5 million", and also Jehovah's Witnesses "he group claims a worldwide membership of more than 8.2 million adherents involved in evangelism,[4] convention attendance figures of more than 15 million, and an annual Memorial attendance of more than 19.9 million.[5]".

If you disagree with this practice on this article then the same principal would surely apply on the other articles too.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 15:06, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I will allow one week for further comments otherwise I will assume that there are no further objections and the attributed use of a primary source in this instance is acceptable and restore the original text. Regards Bksimonb (talk) 07:52, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Is the article COI tag still necessary?

Has the article improved to the point where the "conflict of interest" tag dated August 2014 may now be removed? If not, what else is required to clean up the article? Bksimonb (talk) 07:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

The RfC expired without any comments from other editors. I am now requesting the tag is removed via a COI edit request if a reviewer is satisfied that the article is now OK. Bksimonb (talk) 10:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it has. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:48, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

I would be grateful if you could point to any specific issue that could be addressed. Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

as per wiki statistics [[3]] of this page, multiple editors have been working on this page. It would be difficult to assert that all the top editors are working in together. Recommend removal of the COI tag. Prodigyhk (talk) 18:00, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Prodigyhk. Sorry I only just discovered this response. Since this is the only opinion with any explanation with it I will take it as contributing to a consensus, whereas the previous "I don't think it has" comment from Joseph2302 is only a vote. I will wait a week for any other comments then remove the tag if consensus remains for that action. Regards Bksimonb (talk) 08:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to adjust article content content to new article title (BKWSU -> Brahma Kumaris)

Recently the article name changed from Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University to just Brahma Kumaris since this is how it is most often referred to in references, the fact that the full name varies in different countries and that a shorter name is easier for the reader to deal with.

The article still refers to the name "BKWSU" without any explanation and needs to be changed the "Brahma Kumaris" throughout for consistency. I suggest one sentence explaining the different names. Unfortunately I was unable to find a reliable reference that explains that the organisation is known as the BKWSU in most places, BKIVV in India and BKWSO in the US. The best I could find was Kranenborg, "It is important to give a broad overview of the movement that is known internationally as ‘Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University'".

I will wait a week for comments.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 05:59, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

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Should common names be used instead of original full names or just surnames?

I would like some other views on this since I have a declared COI that could be seen as predisposing me towards promoting honorifics.

The article refers to the founder and various members of the Brahma Kumaris by their full original names. However they are not known these names now. The founder and some other members assumed new names in the early days of the organisation.

Lekhraj Kripalani is not usually referred to in sources as just "Kripalani". Usually, after the initial introduction in the text, it is "Dada Lekhraj Kripalani/Kirpalani", " or just "Lekhraj". He also assumed then name "Baba".

From my personal experience, which is original research so don't take it as in any way authoritative unless reliable sources back it up, I notice that "Dada Lekhraj" is used in the context of the organisation's early history and and "Brahma Baba" is how he is known in the context of the fully-established organisation. Certainly that is how he is known within the organisation.

Probably more easy to resolve is Janki Kripilani vs Dadi Janki. Dadi Janki is almost never known by her original name.

Hirdaya Mohini is not referred to in sources without the prefix "Dadi" or "Rajyogini" or similar and is more universally known by her assumed name Dadi Gulzar.

I propose the following changes.

1. "Lekhraj Kripalani" just becomes "Dada Lekhraj Kripalani". The name "Brahma Baba" is only mentioned once in this and his own article since most references in the articles are about his role in the establishment of the organisation.
2. "Janki Kripalani" becomes "Dadi Janki Kripalani" on first mention and then "Dadi Janki" thereafter as per WP:Article_titles#Common_names.
3. "Hirdaya Mohini" becomes "Dadi Hirdaya Mohini (Dadi Gulzar)" on first mention and then "Dadi Gulzar" thereafter on the same grounds.

I will wait one week for comment. If no input or consensus is reached in that time then I will fire an Rfc.

Bksimonb (talk) 08:36, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Manual of Style says to use surnames after the initial mention unless a full name is needed due to same/similar surnames. See MOS:SURNAME. Ravensfire (talk) 16:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Request edit

Please revert this edit. That is definitely not the official Indian website. Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 06:05, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Reply 6-FEB-2019

  Editor is able, per WP:COIU  

• The requested change is ostensibly one which the COI editor is able to make on their own.

Regards,  Spintendo  08:57, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Done. Bksimonb (talk) 18:35, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

This article needs a COI tag

When it gets to the point where you have users called BK this or BK that and "Shiv Baba Service" (Shiv Baba is the name of the BKs' god) it really has gone too far.

This article has been whitewashed by the religion's followers and needs to be rebalanced.

There is some very serious bias in the references, many of whom are Brahma Kumari followers or close associates.

--The Cosmic Dung Beetle (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@The Cosmic Dung Beetle: Please note the following from the Arbitration Committee:

As the article is on probation, the principals in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris are expected to change the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. After a suitable grace period, the state of the article can then be evaluated on the motion of any member of the Arbitration Committee and further remedies applied to those editors who continue to edit in an inappropriate manner. Any user may request review by members of the Arbitration Committee.

If your intent is to change it for the better, then it's best to allow the article to reach a disheveled state in order for intervention by the Committee to become inevitable. This is more or less the same strategy recommended by WP:ROPE. Regards,  Spintendo  08:57, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

FYI, there is a pending SPI report on The Cosmic Dung Beetle. Bksimonb (talk) 18:37, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Restore blanked sections and logo

See above discussion, Recent Section and logo deletions. The IP editor who made the edits in May did not respond. I request that the edits described in points 1, 2 and 3 in the above section to be reverted. For point 4, I request that the WP:LABEL word, sect, is replaced as suggested.

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Reply 20-JUN-2019

  Unable to review  

• It is not known what changes are requested to be made. If deleted text is desired to be added, kindly include a verbatim description of the text along with references in the form of "Change x to y using z".

Change x to y using z

x A verbatim description of the old text to be removed from the article (if any) y A verbatim description of the new text to be added to the article (if any) z A reference which verifies the requested change Example edit request: Please change: The Sun's diameter is 25 miles. ↑ This is x ↑ to read as: The Sun's diameter is 864,337 miles. ↑ This is y ↑ using as a reference: Harinath, Paramjit (2019). The Sun. Academic Press. p. 1. ↑ This is z ↑

• Kindly open a new edit request at your earliest convenience when ready to proceed.
  

Regards,  Spintendo  05:56, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Restore blanked sections and logo v2

Please make the following edits,

1. Revert this edit [4]
2. Revert this edit [5] but leave out the last paragraph starting: "It is one of over 1600 accredited observer organizations to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change..." since this bit seems to be promotional
3. Revert this edit [6]
4. Change text in lead, "The sect teaches to transcend labels associated with the body", to, "The organisation teaches to transcend labels associated with the body", or similar to comply with WP:LABEL

Thanks 07:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bksimonb (talk • contribs) 07:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The citations accompanying the omitted claims do not verify them. The description of sect was omitted.  Spintendo  09:23, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I have found other secondary references for the existence of Global Hospital and association with the United Nations and will post the changes here in the required format for an edit request in the next few days. In the meantime, please explain the problem with restoring the logo. I'm not sure how to proceed with that otherwise.

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 08:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Request edit

1. Proposed text and reference to replace this deletion [7] in the Activities section:

===Healthcare===

In 1991 the Brahama Kumaris opened Global Hospital in Rajesthan which offers medical facilities to the local population.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive">{{cite book | last = Walliss | first = John | title = The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition' | year = 2007 | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass | isbn = 9788120829558 }}</ref>{{rp|41}}

2. Proposed text and reference to replace this deletion [8] in the Activities section:

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained consultative status with the UN Economic and Social Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

The Walliss reference for the above two proposed edits can be read here. The same book is currently referenced in one other place in the article ([79]) but I can merge that reference myself as a non-controversial edit if you like.

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 08:01, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Reply 26-JUN-2019

  Edit request declined  

1. The first proposal was declined because it does not sufficiently state the contributions of the other two individuals who were instrumental in the "opening" of the mentioned hospital.
2. The second proposal was declined because the text was insufficiently paraphrased from the source material. Text suggested to be added to an article ought to be placed using an editors own words and phrasings, per WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE.

Regards,  Spintendo  20:01, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

References

Recent Section and image deletions

49.36.135.214, some of the edits you made recently were helpful such as removing references to the "University" to make the article consistent with the new title, just Brahma Kumaris.

However, there are some large deletions just seem a bit over the top with questionable reasons given.

1. "No mention of this in the Watoomull hospital's website. Stealing credit ?)" : Just because you can't personally find something on a website doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It is also referenced to Frank Whaling. The use of the name, Wattammull Memorial Trust, is giving credit to the Wattammull Memorial Trust, not "stealing" credit. Stealing credit would be if they said they built the whole thing themselves without any help from Wattammull.
2. "Removed section. Puffery, reliance on primary and dubious sources." : I think you are right, to some extent, about the puffery however removing the whole section is overkill. The use of primary sources is fine if the source is reliable for establishing a simple fact, i.e. a factual source that has no opinion on the Brahma Kumaris such as the UN's website, and is not advancing an opinion. You need to explain why you find the other sources "dubious". I suggest removing everything after "It is one of over 1600 accredited observer...". The rest is just simple facts and certainly doesn't fall within the definition of WP:PUFFERY.
3. "(Removed Logo. CONFUSION. The International and national BK organisations are different entities and foundations.)" I don't see why anyone would be confused be a logo. If you look at both the Indian and International websites you will see the same logo the only difference is that one is grey and the other is red. That's not going to cause "confusion" to anyone.
4. "(It is not a university. They don't call themselves a university in India after 2017.)" It is correct to remove the word "University" to be consistent with the new article title however "sect" is a word to avoid WP:LABEL. I suggest something like "organisation" to keep the tone neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bksimonb (talk • contribs) 05:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Hospital and UN items to be placed at start of Activites section

1. New proposed text for the Activities section including contributions of other two individuals. Unfortunately I was only able to use the primary source for this. Can we take it that this attribution of the Watumall brothers is considered non-controversial enough to rely on a primary source?

===Healthcare===

In 1991 the Brahama Kumaris and the brothers, Gulab and Khubchand Watumull, opened the J Watumull Global Hospital in Rajesthan which offers medical facilities to the local population.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive">{{cite book | last = Walliss | first = John | title = The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition' | year = 2007 | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass | isbn = 9788120829558 }}</ref>{{rp|41}}<ref>{{cite web |title=J Watumull Global Hospital & Research Centre - About Us |url=http://www.ghrc-abu.com/home |website=www.ghrc-abu.com}}</ref>

2. I take on baord the the concerns regarding WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE however I find that since it is one sentence stating simple facts, I beleive that WP:FACTSONLY and WP:LIMITED apply here. There really aren't that many options I can see to present the facts concisly unless you have any other suggestion. I am happy to request a third opinion if this is still an issue. I am repeating the proposed edit below for readability since the previous request has already been closed.

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained consultative status with the UN Economic and Social Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 12:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

The first proposed sentence does not take into account the 4th person instrumental in opening the hospital, Ashok Mehta. The second sentence can be sufficiently paraphrased by simply elaborating upon what is meant by the terms "became affiliated with" and "gaining consultative status", as not all readers may be familiar with United Nations' Council and Public Information Office terminology as it's applied here in this context. Regards,  Spintendo  16:21, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Request edit

1. Here is the new text including the fourth person.

===Healthcare===

In 1991 the Brahama Kumaris, Dr Ashok Mehta and the brothers, Gulab and Khubchand Watumull, opened the J Watumull Global Hospital in Rajesthan which offers medical facilities to the local population.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive">{{cite book | last = Walliss | first = John | title = The Brahma Kumaris as a 'reflexive Tradition' | year = 2007 | publisher = Motilal Banarsidass | isbn = 9788120829558 }}</ref>{{rp|41}}<ref>{{cite web |title=J Watumull Global Hospital & Research Centre - About Us |url=http://www.ghrc-abu.com/home |website=www.ghrc-abu.com}}</ref>

2. "consultative status" and "affiliated with" would be legally defined by the UN to describe a particular type of association an organisation can have with them. These phrases are also in common use in any literature about the UN or organisations associated with the UN. I believe that trying to elaborate or define these terms here would misrepresent and obfuscate the legal association being described and is beyond the scope of this article. If you are still not in agreement then I suggest we invite a third opinion.

Bksimonb (talk) 07:26, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Reply 14-JUL-2019

  Edit request partially implemented  

1. Y The information concerning the J Watumull Global Hospital was added. These added claims were identified in the text as pertaining to the Sirohi district of Rajasthan, a location which was incorrectly identified in the edit request as "Rajesthan".
2. N If the terms "consultative status" and "affiliated with" are in as common a use as earlier described, the COI editor is invited to add the WikiLinks for these exact common terms to their edit request.

Regards,  Spintendo  13:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for actioning first edit.

I can find a Wikilink for "consultative status". However I can't "alleviated with" defined anywhere. So the best proposal I can come up with is

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained [[Consultative_status|consultative status]] with the UN Economic and Social ::Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

I don't fully understand why the bar for inclusion has been raised as high as it has for this sentence. I don't see how the sentence presents any WP:CLOSEPARAPHRASE risk to Wikipedia since it is only one sentence and is only stating facts. The only remaining concern now, as I understand it, is the use of the word "affiliated" which means something like "officially connected with", although "affiliated" is the word most often used in Wikipedia articles concerning the UN, such as United Nations System, List of specialized agencies of the United Nations and List of specialized agencies of the United Nations. These articles all use the word without any WikiLink or expansion of the phrase. Perhaps we can agree on the following text?

===United Nations===

In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris formed an official connection with the Department of Public Information of the United Nations and gained [[Consultative_status|consultative status]] with the UN Economic and Social ::Council and UNICEF.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks,

Bksimonb (talk) 13:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Unfortunately, a claim of being "affiliated with" is a term that is open to wide interpretation. The Brahma Kumaris article is not about the UN, so claims that the "affiliated" term is a word most often used in Wikipedia articles concerning the UN is moot. Changing the claim to "official connection" doesn't solve the problem. These claims needs to be assiduously defined in order to prevent misinterpretation. When exactly were these claims made? In the 1980's is not very specific. In what year were they made? Who was it who laid out these distinctions? Which part of the UN did these people who made these distinctions belong to? You've mentioned that they belonged to the Department of Public Information, but a WikiLink to that department has not been provided. Also, what was their reasoning behind the making of these distinctions? I'm sure you'd agree that if such a claim is to be made in the article, that all of these questions deserve answers in the article. Giving those answers will help to make a more complete section of the article where the text is to be added. If the "official connection" gained was owing directly to the consultative status being achieved, then the wording needs to be rephrased to state that "In the 1980s the Brahma Kumaris formed an official connection with the UN Economic and Social Council and UNICEF by gaining consultative status." Regards,  Spintendo  14:44, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Just to recap, the original text from the Walliss reference (p41) is, "In the 1980s it became affiliated to the Department of Public Information of the United Nations (1980) and gained consultitive status with the UN Economic and Social Council (1983) and UNICEF (1988)". From the secondary source we can see three events with dates given. I suggest we drop my "official connection" suggestion to describe "affiliation" since it seems to be opening another can of worms.

The secondary sources I've seen, such as Walliss, describing the Brahma Kumaris' relation to the UN tend to be a bit dated and terse on the matter.

Here is a proposal containing WikiLinks and dates for all UN and departments involved. Is this any closer to what we are aiming at?

===United Nations===

In 1980 the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated to the [[United_Nations_Department_of_Global_Communications|Department of Public Information]] of the [[United Nations]] and gained [[consultative status]] with the [[United Nations Economic and Social Council]] in 1983 and with [[UNICEF]] in 1988.<ref name="Walliss-reflexive" />{{rp|41}}

Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The Walliss source doesn't state that the Brahma Kumaris became affiliated, rather, it states that the "University" became affiliated. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between the "Brahma Kumaris" and "the University", as those terms are used by Walliss. Regards,  Spintendo  01:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The full name of the Brahma Kumaris, in the UK where Walliss did his research, is the "Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University". This used to be the article title. The article name was abbreviated because there are variations to the name internationally with the only commonality being the words "Brahma Kumaris". Also "Brahma Kumaris" is the common name referred to by most of the sources listed at the end of the article and by the Brahma Kumaris itself on its own website.

Perhaps the article should mention the full name somewhere but a recent IP editor removed any remaining traces.

When Walliss refers to the "University" it is an abbreviation of the same. The first time he introduces the abbreviation in his book is on page x of the Introduction:

"...to examine the Brahma Kumaris World University along three main axes.

In chapters three and four, I focus on the emergence and historical development of both the University and its theodicy".

Hope that helps clarify.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 11:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification. The claims regarding the UN that Walliss makes have not been confirmed by any sources originating from the UN. As Walliss does not footnote the claims in their publication, it seems to be only their word to take for this. I find it hard to believe that the UN would not have any documents verifying this. Because the claim involves the UN, and because the claim is one of "affiliation" with the UN, the provided sources should also originate from the UN just to be sure. That would go a long way towards answering the questions I raised earlier about who in the UN made these distinctions and why, as well as fulfilling the principals set forth in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris whereby an expectation was set by the Arbitration Committee to convert the article from its present state based on original research and BK publications to an article containing verifiable information based on reliable third party sources. I believe that is the last obstacle remaining in the way of implementing this claim. Regards,  Spintendo  12:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Getting lists of NGOs is indeed a challenge. So far I managed to come up with a database entry from the "Department of Economic and Social Affairs" website. Unfortunately this doesn't directly relate to the exact dates and claims from Walliss, but it does show that the BK has at least some association with the UN and isn't making it all up. I also found this document from the UN that confirms General Consultative status with ECOSOC and Department of Public Information.

Another document I found was published by the BK themselves but hosted on a UN website. At the end of the document it lists all the associations with the UN. Although a self-published source, do you agree that it is reasonable to assume that the UN would not have allowed its publication on their own website if it was making false claims regarding the BKs relationships with the UN?

I will keep searching for more direct links to the 1980s links to the UN unless we can use any of the above to either support Walliss's claim or rewrite the claim to use only the claim supported by the Department of Economic and Social Affairs link.

If you prefer the option to limit the claim to only the one supported by the UN website instead of supporting Walliss's statement, then I propose the following edit:

In 1998 the Brahma Kumaris gained [[consultative status|General Consultative Status]] with the [[United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs]] <ref>{{cite web|url=https://esango.un.org/civilsociety/simpleSearch.do?method=search&searchTypeRedef=simpleSearch&sessionCheck=false&searchType=simpleSearch&organizationNamee=brahma+kumaris|access-date=16 July 2019|language=English|title=United Nations  Civil Society Participation – General}}</ref>

Unfortunately the URL is a database search rather than the actual result of the search. I wasn't able to get a shareable link of the entry itself that I could use for Wikipedia or archive.org.

Let me know which of the UN hosted sources, if any, I have found so far have any mileage. I can then perhaps make an edit proposal that incorporates them.

Regards Bksimonb (talk) 15:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for carrying out this search, it's most appreciated. I think the two documents you provided are perfectly acceptable for the revised claim. I'm sorry but in all the back and forth I've forgotten where it was that you wanted this claim placed, if you could remind me, i'll place it in the article. Thanks!  Spintendo  23:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

 Implemented I've placed this claim under the Activities section as originally requested, along with UN documentation verifying the claims. Regards,  Spintendo  03:21, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Brahma Kumaris

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Remedy 3 of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Brahma Kumaris, "article probation", is hereby terminated.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 18:33, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Brahma Kumaris

Spammers promoting their website(s)?

A user, Shiv Baba Service (now blocked), replaced the BK website URLs several times. After they were blocked, IP users began doing the same thing. Not quite sure why, unless it's just self-promotion of a site, but I'm changing them back until the miscreants say something. It looks like this has been going on for a year or more... — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 20:19, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

UncleBubba, longer, I think. It looks like it's either a splinter group, or it's just a website run by someone trying to capitalize on their name. It's not used anywhere on Wikipedia (nor should it), so it's possibly a candidate (along with the other sites that redirect there) for either the revert list or spam black list. Ravensfire (talk) 21:37, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Ravensfire, agreed; that's an appropriate way to deal with it. Folks who add crap to pages for personal gain are really annoying to me, especially when they come back when they think you're not looking. Let's keep an eye on it over the next few weeks/months. Thanks! — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 22:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Ravensfire, OK, that's even better. You seem to have even less patience with this stuff than I do. GREAT! Thanks! — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 22:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Please also consider this recent insertion of another personal site. Thanks Bksimonb (talk) 12:55, 23 July 2020 (UTC)