Talk:Bowman brothers

Further reading

I have added Elizabeth Warburton's book The Bowmans of Martindale Hall as Further reading. I read it about 10 years ago, but unfortunately no longer have the copy, though it is available 2nd hand, as for example [1]. It strays from its title to cover the whole of the Australian Bowman clan, much as the article has.

Having said that, it only included four items not touched on by the article and which are memorable enough to stay in my mind for 10 years (if indeed I've remembered them correctly):

• The Bowman Brothers started a new township (I forget the name, but almost certainly in SA), but it didn't thrive.
• The catastropic event which caused the richer side of the Bowman family to lose Martindale and most of their other assets was a severe drought. This initially caused some wells in the middle of the very extended range to fail, and in spite of warnings from aborigines that the further wells at one end of the range would also fail, the Bowmans made a wrong choice and sent the animals that way, resulting in them having to be slaughtered to avoid them dying of thirst, even though water remained, many miles away, at the other end of the range. Since they were too far from settlements to transport to any butcher, the carcasses were totally valueless.
• A group from the 2nd (and I think 3rd) generation took a long holiday back to Westmorland, but when they saw the cold and almost perpetually damp weather, they decided that Australia was vastly preferable. (I forget though whether that was before or after the loss of Martindale due to drought.)
• In later years, after William Charles returned to live in Tasmania, and was joined by others, their descendants, as "Australian gentry", entertained one or perhaps two future kings sometime around 1900 (definitely the future King George V, and possibly also his elder brother, the future Edward VII, depending which journey it occurred on, which I forget). This reference mentions a John Bowman, born at Celleron in 1828, presumably a cousin of the "brothers" and son or grandson of Mary's brother, who might have been one of them, since he is said to have died in Tasmania, but in any case, the book gives full details. (By the way, I see the link also mentions a Richard Bowman, born 1836 in Burtergill, possibly a place 15 miles E of Askham, dying in SA in 1896, who is presumably another cousin).

I haven't added these facts to the article itself, since they need checking against the book in case I have mis-remembered.

(A further item which stood out for the wrong reasons to a 21st century reader of Warburton's book, was a sentence, redolent of the attitudes which created the White Australia policy, which includes the words "...depredations by dogs and aborigines...." I think that these days the information would be split across two sentences (or shown as a direct quote) to avoid any suggestion that the writer considered that aborigines were no better than dogs, whatever the Bowman brothers themselves would have believed in the 19th century. Those who believe in karma would be satisfied that the Bowmans' greater losses, effectively bankrupting them, came through them not appreciating the value of an aborigine's advice about water supply. However, we should be quick to remember how attitudes have changed even within our own lifetimes, as illustrated by how Warburton's wording no longer feels appropriate, rather than suggesting that the Bowmans behaved any differently than other squatters of their day.) Enginear (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Askham was in Westmorland

Many people (including some past mentions in this article, which I have corrected) erroneously claim Askham was in Cumberland, possibly because of a wrong assumption that all places now in Cumbria were previously in Cumberland, or because its postal address was Askham, Penrith, Cumberland (correct because the "post town" Penrith was just inside that county). However, Askham was over the border in Westmorland. It was near the boundary, and the Bowman lands extended in 19th and 20th centuries into Cumberland, at Penruddock for example. The problem is only historical, as all these places are now in Cumbria (which was formed in 1974 from Cumberland, Westmorland and a part of Lancashire).

Also, some sites claim incorrectly that Askham was in Wessex, presumably because of the abbreviation for Westmorland, "Wes". However, Wessex had not existed for several centuries before the records they refer to, and even when it did, was several days journey south of Westmorland. Finally, in earlier days, particularly before James VI and I began to standardise British Civil Service spelling in the 17th century, Westmoreland was an acceptable alternative spelling of Westmorland, so some sources are found with that spelling. Therefore when searching for Askham on the web, it is sometimes best not to mention the county! Enginear (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Kilburn, Islington, Pine Forest, Barton Vale and Enfield

The late reminiscences of, and obituaries for, the Bowman Brothers use various names for the locations of houses built by John snr and Edmund. This hardly seems important, since (assuming the statement that Islington is now known as Kilburn is correct) the locations seem to have been within 2km of one another, and John snr's first pre-fab house seems only to have lasted for a few months, so I have ensured all references are mentioned, rather than try to choose a line. Enginear (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Parker Bowman was a cousin, not an uncle

I have corrected the relationship of Parker to the Australian patriarch John. He was clearly not a younger brother, since there is a 46 year difference in their birth dates (1785 and 1831). Also, although there were many Edmund Bowmans in Askham, there only appears to have been one Ann Wilkinson in the parish register, who is shown to have married Edmund in 1781 and to have died as a widow in 1812, aged 87 (there is an Edmund Bowman buried in 1803 aged 83, who may have been her husband, though he might have been another of the several Edmund Bowmans, but in any case, if Ann was stated to be a widow, he had clearly predeceased her). Therefore both "parents" had died more than 18 years before Parker Bowman (one of the few names only ever held by one Bowman in Askham) was born. Finally, the newspaper article claimed as a reference for Parker being "John's brother" is dated 22 Sep 1840 (when Parker was about 9 yrs old) whereas the 1841 census shows Parker still in Askham the following year.

Possibly the reporter actually spoke to Edmund, rather than John (snr), and Edmund said that his brother (John jnr) had seen the dog. But whatever was intended, it could not have been referring to Parker.

The baptism records of Askham at that period are very incomplete (this is said to be due to religious persecution, since Askham is near Scotland and the local approved religion varied from time to time between RC and CofE; therefore people were often baptised secretly or not at all, so that they could claim whichever religion was convenient; many were only baptised at the start of their wedding ceremony, which they could not avoid being recorded.) Similarly, the census records do not always show ages accurately, and since so many cousins shared the same names, some uncertainty remains as to which person is refered to.

Parker was indeed "son of Edmund Bowman of Askham", as noted in the article, but that was not the Edmund Bowman who married Ann Wilkinson and was father of the Australian patriarch John, but the Edmund Bowman who married Hannah (maybe nee Sisson) and was father of Thomas (b.1829) (and possibly William b.c1821) both of whom also emigrated to South Australia.

Apart from the details given in Warburton's book, there is strong evidence from the Askham census of 1841, although care must be taken due to the many duplicate names and possibly unreliable ages -- for example, within the village, there were then 6 Bowmans called Mary, 2 called Deborah, 2 called Richard and 2 called William, apart from others with the same names who had recently emigrated!

In the 1841 census, the household of John Bowman the cooper appears to include his mother Hannah and his younger siblings William (not the one who emigrated, unless the age is wrong), Mary [14 yrs old], Thomas, Parker and Richard. There is also (probably) an aunt and uncle, Mary [aged 35] and Edmund [aged 28], neither shown as working for some reason, possibly invalided or just visiting, and (probably) Hannah's mother Mary Sisson [aged 75] (so there are three Marys in the same house!). Presumably John's father and two brothers (if the "Concerning People" cite is correct that Thomas is the fifth brother) are either dead or are working away from home long-term, since John is listed first as master of the house. One of those brothers may have been "Cousin William", already in SA.

Two other households are of interest: Richard Bowman the farmer has an eldest daughter Mary [aged 3] and may well be the "Richard Bowman of Forest Hill" mentioned in the article as father of Mary, Parker's future wife, since her age is correct. He may well have moved back to run the Askhamgate farm after John, Mary and family emigrated. It was one of the few houses in the village large enough to warrant the two live-in servants, and to comfortably house his young family plus (probably) his mother, older brother and perhaps either a "cousin-by-marriage" or a step-sister, who is presumably related to Edmund Parnell. All of those three are listed as self-supporting. One of the [Bowman gravestones] in the churchyard shows that Richard's mother later returned to Forest Hill, after which Richard may also have emigrated to Tycooly in Ireland (though the dates don't quite match and I can't locate the place on a map). Parker is recorded as having emigrated from Penrith, during his great-aunt's lifetime, and I have seen a suggestion (I forget where) that he had relocated to help out at the Forest Hill farm, alongside his future wife.

The third house of interest is the Low Close farm, where (yet another) Mary Bowman is listed as a live-in servant. The oddity is that that farm was the home of several Bowmans from about that period. But for whatever reason, it was not theirs in 1841. It may be that I am incorrect in assuming that the Australian pioneers came from Askhamgate, since if they did in fact come from Low Close, that would explain why the farm was not Bowman-run in 1841. I do not recall whether the farm Australian patriarch John came from is noted in Warburton's book, or whether I formed my opinion from other data.

I appreciate that, as presented above, much of this is original research, and therefore not valid to include in the article. I mention it for your interest. However, I am fairly certain that Parker Bowman's parentage is clarified in Warburton's book, (and was clearly incorrect as written) and that is the only relevant change I'm making to the article (along with consequential changes such as changing the section heading from "Uncle and cousins" to "Cousins" and placing Parker in the correct date order).

One bonus is that while checking this, i found a number of useful cites, which I have added, along with the missing dates for cousin Stephen. Enginear (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Information about the original Bowman family in Askham, Westmorland, UK

I have further information and two links, relating to the initial English family in Askham, Westmorland (now Cumbria) which I will leave here rather than in the article, since they extend the scope of the original article, and anyway I do not have time at present to add the information to a standard suitable for the main space, let alone to start a new article on The Bowmans of Askham, as would be preferable. The information is nearly all available on the web, but I do not have cites handy. I believe the family is notable, for spawning not only the Australia branch, but also some important people both in USA and England. Indeed, I would personally rate any family which can be traced for 440 years and has sent successful pioneers to both Australia and the USA while continuing to thrive in Europe, as notable!

Last time I checked, several partial family trees were available on the internet, but I don't have the links to hand. Searching for "Thomas Bowman" (died 1724) and Askham used to be a good source although the family tree has been taken back four further generations, to Thomas Bowman b.c1572 d.1623/4, m Anna nee Dicson b.c1576 d.1624. There are enough Thomas's, Edmund's, John's and Mary's, in particular, to cause continuing confusion, and a few discrepancies remain between different trees.

By the 20th century, substantial branches of the Bowman clan had emigrated to both Australia and the USA (several people have researched the USA branch), and other families had moved within the UK to what is now Northern Ireland, Scotland and SE England, while a rump remained in Westmorland. At various times, the Bowman families in Westmorland occupied farms at Celleron (2 miles NW of Askham), Askhamgate (in the modern centre of Askham, originally by a gate to Askham Hall), Low Close (1 mile north of Askham), Helton or Widewath (I forget which)(1 or 2 miles SSW of Askham, and Penruddock (7 miles WNW of Askham), and also a large house (possibly Waterside House on Ullswater, 3 miles west of Askham, but I forget).

I also do not know whether the farms mentioned above were owned or leased, except that Askhamgate farm and some land at Penruddock were certainly owned at a later date by another Thomas Bowman, living in the Ullswater house, until his death in the mid 20th century. (This Thomas, or perhaps an ancestor, also used a coat of arms containing a motto Regem et legem arcu defendo (I defend the king and the law with my bow), but that does not appear to have been formally applied for or registered.)

I am not aware of evidence (though nor have I looked much) of any Bowman-owned property at Martindale, Westmorland (a valley running into the SE side of Ullswater, and now containing an eponymous hamlet, see map). It could perhaps have belonged to [Australian patriarch] John's or Mary's mothers' families; or maybe their children, who bought and named Martindale sheep station where Martindale Hall was later built, merely remembered its beautiful scenery.

Askhamgate, now a listed building (recorded as Askham Gate, but popularly known as Askhamgate for many years), has a carved inscription "I&EL 1683" above a pedestrian gateway to the farmyard (the smaller gate to the left of the barn door, behind the car in this official photo. Intriguingly, examination of the dates of birth of her children, and her own marriage and death dates, suggest that Eleanor Law, future wife of Thomas Bowman (d1724) and with initials EL, was probably born between 1673 and 1683, but it is unclear how this could relate to the inscription. Nor does it relate to her parents' initials, since they were recorded as Thomas and Margaret. If there is some connection, the building may have been inherited by Eleanor, who married Thomas in about 1699 and thereby brought it into the Bowman family. (I mention this out of interest, but unless there is evidence of which I am not aware, this is certainly not adequately supported to be encyclopaedic, and in any case, what I have stated is original research.)

If I recall correctly, John Bowman, the patriarch of the original migrants to Australia, was brought up at Askhamgate, or possibly Low Close. As noted in the article, he married his cousin Mary (nee Bowman) from Celleron. There are three gravestones in the cemetery of St Peter's Church, Askham, which relate to deaths of those they left behind on John's side of the family (Celleron was and is in the parish of St Michael, Barton, Westmorland (now Cumbria)). One is protected as a scheduled Ancient Monument, and is shown in this official photo, although better photos are (or certainly used to be) available elsewhere on the web.

One interesting point is that the ancient tracks through the area passed by Celleron rather than Askham. I believe the village of Askham only grew up after Askham Hall/Lowther Park was enclosed, with a gate at Askhamgate and the boundary running generally along the east side of what is now the road north and south out of Askham (there is/was a map of the boundary somewhere on the web). Perhaps the "desire lines" changed or the lower route became more accessible due to deforestation, but certainly Askham is a rather more sheltered place for a village than the bleak moor round Celleron. Enginear (talk) 12:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 29 October 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Paul foord (talk) 23:30, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

(non-admin closure)

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Bowman Brothers → Bowman brothers – Per MOS:CAPS, "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names or for acronyms." This is an article about a group of brothers. It is not a proper name (e.g., it is not about a book entitled Bowman Brothers or a business called Bowman Brothers). —BarrelProof (talk) 12:47, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Other Bowman brothers

At Gray, Nancy (1969). "Bowman, Alexander (1838–1892)". Australian Dictionary of Biography. National Centre of Biography, Australian National University. ISSN 1833-7538. Retrieved 2015-10-29. there is an article on another group of Bowman brothers, with the WP article Alexander Bowman (Australian politician) relating to that. Paul foord (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

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